Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
We dont HAVE to UNDERSTAND the 'why's' about eternal torment to KNOW God tells us that it IS the case
Sounds like nothing but human reasoning, Armistead....a human mind that doesnt seem to be able to accept that it doesnt know the mind of the Living GOD whos word CLEARLY proclaims eternal condemnation.
Keep this in mind.
2000 years after the gospel was sent into the world, there are literally thousands of languages in the earth today which do NOT have even pieces of Scriptures let alone an entire Bible?
Do you understand that from Adam to the present day, probably well over 95 percent of the world never heard the one name under which men must be saved?
Are you also aware that most of the world who did hear the name hear it from a Catholic priest who told them that Jesus was a piece of cracker which they had to eat in order to be saved?
Are you also aware that most denominations of Christianity throughout the ages have added hundreds of other qualifications which potential converts also had to perform or rules one had to abide by in order to stay saved? The list is endless-it ranges from being a member of the "right" church or denomination to a certain form of water baptism to declaring a certain formula to having to speak in tongues, etc.
Then once a person is saved, there are literally hundreds of ways one can lose their salvation according to the thousands of different denominations which have formed around creeds, men, styles of buildings and worship, nationality, forms of church government, etc.
Let's face it, if we add all the things Jesus said about those who thought they knew Him but whom He would say to, "I never knew you,"(Matt. 7:23) and the many luke-warm who he would "vomit" out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16), surely there is scarcely a person who can really have absolute assurance they are truly saved.
Contrast this depressing situation with the nature and character of our heavenly Father and His Son. Do you see a terrible discrepancy? As a matter of fact, the discrepancy is so great that many trasitional Christians have had to create other gospels remedy this great gap.
Some Christians have invented the "age of accountability" to get the little ones out of the eternal flames. Surely they do it quite unscripturally. There isn't a shred of Scripture which supports such a cause noble as it may be. The Scriptures plainly state "there is NONE righteous, nay, not one." (Rom. 3:10-12) "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Rom. 3:23) No-the teaching that children are innocent until a mythical age of accountability might partially remove the black eye he suffered from the church's "good news" which is terribly bad for almost ALL of mankind, but it's not in the Bible.
Some well-meaning Christians try to justify God for sending almost all of mankind to Hell even though they never heard the name of Christ by stating Romans 1:20 which makes it plain that all can see that there is a god just by looking at trees, stars, rocks, etc. Well, there were MANY heathens who believed in a god through nature. The nation of Israel was surrounded by nations who believed in gods of all kind because they saw something divine in nature, but did that save them? NO! They were called idolators! One does not find Jesus by looking at clouds and trees. One finds Jesus through the preaching of the Good News. No preaching, no salvation. Archaeology conclusively proves this fact. We only find Christian civilizations where the Gospel was preached. We do NOT find it in civilizations in which there were no Bibles or preachers of the Gospel.
Many will make up clauses, tell mythical stories of Christ coming at the brink of death, but these are simply more lies to try and make hell..not as bad or full.
They try to get some of those who never heard the gospel into heaven because they realize it isn't fair to send someone to Hell if they've never heard the gospel tell us that God will judge people based upon the condition of their heart. If they are good people, God will save them even if they've never heard the gospel. While that certainly makes God look a lot better than what traditional Christianity teaches, this teaching totally contradicts the Bible which plainly states "there is NONE righteous, nay not one." Furthermore, it negates the cross completely. If people can get saved outside of the cross, then there was no reason for Christ's death. Good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell. But according to Scripture, there are no "good people" from God's point of view. When someone called Jesus good, Jesus said to them, "Why do you call me good? There is none good except God."
All these extra-biblical ways to try to get more people out of the traditional Hell and into heaven is because the traditional view has so grossly distorted the gospel and the character of God, that well-meaning Christians have felt the need to invent non-scriptural means to empty the traditional Hell some. The traditional concept of salvation, when carefully scrutinized, surely puts almost all of mankind into Hell. How can grace have abounded much more than sin with such pathetic results.
Adam condemns all of mankind to death, Jesus manages to squeeze out a pathetic handful for Himself and then is compelled to send the rest of mankind to eternal tortures which would make Hitler's actions look like child's play.
Until the heart of God and the will of God become the foundational factors determining our understanding of Scripture, our "gospel" will be bad news--not good. "God is Love, but" is simply not the message the Holy Spirit is conveying to us in the Bible (1 John 4:10,14).
Many, and rightly so cannot accept a God who would eternally torture their loved ones. The early church did not teach eternal hell. However, once eternal hell entered the church, look what came with it, torture, mass killings, wars, crusades, ect...Hey, if God can do it, why not us..and
so they did, all in the name of God.
I'm just saying...regardless of where you stand on the issue....Take time
to study UR, the first gospel. With all the threads, opinions and remarks,
take time for yourself.
I think if man could put away this concept of a loving God only able to save a few, many would come to live happy lives in Christ.
I accept that I am made in the image of the living God and God wants us to use human reasoning.
Where on earth do you folks get this stuff ?
Christs sacrifice paid the price that animal sacrifice couldnt, poster.
Did you bother to READ ALL of the details in the NT ?
Jesus' death did what ANIMAL sacrifices could NOT DO.
And so if those words are too hard lets just remove them from the picture, supposedly.
Can you point me to the verse that teaches that one can become a believer after death?
Absolutely FALSE.
SHOW me where GOD explained to Adam WHY he was not to eat of the tree, poster !
Adam KNEW not to eat of the tree because God TOLD him not to do it...Adam didnt NEED to know why to KNOW that he had been told 'DONT DO IT or you die'...
You misunderstand my post. I'll insert your example and break down what I said.
The matter in question is obedience. Adam understood the command of God; that is, in literal terms, he heard the voice of God, and his brain translated it into meaning, which he then understood to apply to his potential, future actions. In this manner, he understood that God had spoken to him, and thus, he knew that God had spoken to him.
Your error is that you jump from Adam's knowledge that God told him not eat to the fruit into God telling Adam the reason for it. This does not come into play at all. You must make a separate line-up:
Adam could not understand the reason for the restriction of the fruit because Adam had no access to that truth, which is contained in the mind of God. Because he had no access, he could not know it. Thus, Adam had no way of knowing the truth of the reasoning behind God's commandment.
Thus, your example actually works out perfectly in my logical outline, as long as it is properly understood and employed.
Hardly.
Ill pass on ANYthing you deem as 'logical', thanks
God spoke DIRECTLY with Adam. Adam had DIRECT ACCESS to the Truth Giver, poster....your reasoning is entirely flawed.
*IF* it were required for ADAM to understand WHY instruction was given then God could have explained it to him...yet He didnt.
.
We dont HAVE to UNDERSTAND the 'why's' about eternal torment to KNOW God tells us that it IS the case"We dont HAVE to UNDERSTAND the 'why's' about eternal torment (X) to KNOW God tells us that it IS the case (Y)"
It helps if you insert the understood "that" to show why this is two propositions:
1) The why of eternal torment
2) That God tells us of eternal torment
Again, the system deals with one proposition at a time. You can pick one or the other to plug it in. But the system does not attempt to answer for multiple propositions.
Im sorry but NONE of anything you posted there shows that man can come to repentance AFTER death.Sure, it's the theme of the bible.
Adam KNEW what he was instructed not to do.Let's see...Adam had direct access to the truth, even though he yet had
any knowledge of it.....
False.We've already proven without doubt it was not Adams choice not to eat.
It was God's plan that he would, he ordained it, he put every piece in place so Adam and Eve would eat...It was God's plan. Stop blaming one or two people for the fall of man...it was God's doing.
Yes, the time will come, at the creation of the New Heaven and the New Earth, when Jesus Christ will bring to completion God's Plan of Universal Salvation,
Sure, it's the theme of the bible.
Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
We see in this previous passage that resurrection is the reviving of our bodies from the corruptible into the incorruptible. We will be raised with spiritual bodies instead of these worn down shells that are prone to sickness and death.Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain and your faith also is vain! And we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we bore witness concerning God, that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise--if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have died in Christ have perished.
If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have died. For since by a man death came, also by a Man comes the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then those who belong to Christ at His coming. Then will be the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He abolishes every ruler and every authority and power. For He must reign till He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For "He has subjected all things under His feet." But when He says that "all things have been subjected," it is evident that this is except for Him who subjected all things to Him.
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that God may be all in all. Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the dead, if the dead are not raised at all? Why are they also baptized for the dead? And why are we also in danger every hour? I affirm, by my boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If, in the manner of men, I fought with beasts at Ephesus, what is the benefit to me? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" Do not be deceived: "Evil associations corrupts good habits." Awake to righteousness, and do not sin, for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory.
It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Thus also it is written, "The first man Adam became a living soul;" the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, that which is spiritual is not first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(1Co 15:12-46 EMTV)
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)
This is powerful stuff, Armistead, along with your commentary (which I neglected to quote only to keep my own post shorter).
I'm in an odd position. Logically, I'm UR. Theologically, I'm UR. Scripturally, I still have difficulty understanding other Biblical language (the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" bit) in a UR context.
Worst of all, as a ministerial student, I almost feel an obligation to, at the very least, leave this route unexplored. If nothing else, I have no plans to deliver a sermon on hell at any time in the future.
Fantastic commentary, Armistead.
Can you point me to the verse that teaches that one can become a believer after death?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?