Witchcraft, is it evil?

[Organized Chaos]

http://bornagainpagan.multiservers.com
BORN AGAIN PAGAN - From Pagan High Priest to Faith in Christ
(Gotta give my own site a plug *grin*)

You call yourself a "born again pagan," but you're a Christian? That's very interesting. The only "born again pagans" I know are, well, pagan! They use the term the same way born again Christians use it: they believe themselves to be reborn as children of the pagan Gods. This is the first time I've ever heard a Christian use the term.

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

You call yourself a "born again pagan," but you're a Christian? That's very interesting. The only "born again pagans" I know are, well, pagan! They use the term the same way born again Christians use it: they believe themselves to be reborn as children of the pagan Gods. This is the first time I've ever heard a Christian use the term.

Would you believe me if I say "born again" is an ancient Sanskrit term?

 

[Organized Chaos]

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm sure that most cultures have a similar concept, whether it be a spiritual rebirth, reincarnation, or what not. What did the Sanskrit term refer to? A spiritual rebirth?

 

[Boneddiges Cymraeg]

I'm an ex-High Priest of a Pagan Coven myself who has since come to Christ...

May I ask, what made you change your faith?

 

[Born_to_Lose_Live_to_Win]

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm sure that most cultures have a similar concept, whether it be a spiritual rebirth, reincarnation, or what not. What did the Sanskrit term refer to? A spiritual rebirth?

It is a spiritual rebirth, yes. But it also consisted of a ceremony. But, sadly, I don't know for what reasons, it was done mainly for the Brahmins only. It consisted of wearing a sacred thread around the shoulder like a cross-belt. From that point, that brahmin is considered "twice-born", or "born again".
Its Sanskrit word is "Dvijan"(Dvi-twice, jan-birth).

 

[SquareC]

Where does the 'power' come from in the practice of witchcraft?

The power for any "spell" I, personally, cast comes from my Lady and Lord. All spells are prayers, in my practice.

The Divine is the Divine is the Divine, regardless of which religious connotation one affixes to it. We all worship the same Ultimate, whether admittedly or not. The sooner the "my idea of god is better than your idea of god" people realize & accept that, the better the world will be for us all.

That is what I keep trying to explain to people, myself. So few realize this all-encompassing truth.

 

[Starcrystal]

^ Nice!

Check this out, especially those Christians who are quick to judge "witches" or anyone else not of their path:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=10680167&posted=1#post10680167

Truth is, if Jesus were here on earth today, many church people would accuse him of being a witch himself!
I find this very interesting:
http://www.wellreadwitch.com/jcwitch.htm

 

[morningstar2651]

One thing about witchcraft that tends to scare Christians is the use of the pentacle.

Pentagrams were used symbolically in ancient Greece and Babylonia. The Pentagram has magickal associations, and many people who practice pagan faiths wear them.

Christians once commonly used the pentagram to represent the five wounds of Jesus Christ, but nowadays some Christians associate the symbol with Satanism. However, most who use it are not Satanists.

(Source)

 

[Starcrystal]

From a revelation from an angelic being last year:

"(Q: Ok, so theres the 7 spiritual dimensions, large that we can access, and then 5 beyond that, not just 9 or 11 total as Hawking and others describe, do I have this right?)

"Correct. The 5 dimensions within and beyond the 7, these are the "smaller, curled" dimensions, comparable to the 5 string theories which combined in their totality create the unknown or undiscovered theory along with supergravity, but the complete Unified Theory of the All would encompass the 7 and the 5 together in harmony, working in the order rather than separately distinct.

As also I told you last night about obsolete theories, some of which are only missing this one simple point. The 3, the 7, and 12 are revealed throughout your Bible, the 5 has been more hidden, therefore "occult" ~ not in the sense of negative anti-forces, but revealed in the pentacle; the 5 elements - often kept separate from the 3, 7, and 12, yet in truth a part of them; a representation of the totality."

Truth is the Pentacle was corrupted at a later time. Some used it for evil purposes, inverting it and honoring Satan. Christians therefore condemned all use of the pentacle. Yet Jesus is still called the MORNING STAR, and the woman in Revelation 12 still has 12 stars upon her head. I read on one Wiccan site where they seemed pretty upset that Anton LaVey used the pentagram to symbolize Satan, and that he corrupted the goodness of nature by ascribing these energies to the devil.

 

[Cerridwen]

The pentagram isn't used to symbolize Satan. The Baphomet sigil is, however. Reasons for it being for the knowledge that the Baphomet represents, as well as carnal desires, among other things. Generally, when someone attempts to use the pentagram or the pentacle to represent 'evil', that person is either uneducated about what it actually means or is assigning it their own meaning. For Wiccans & many Pagans, the pentagram represents the five elements-Earth, Air, Fire, Water, & Spirit. When the pentagram is upright, it indicates the Spirit at the top. Most Wiccans & Pagans only use the pentagram in the upright position, but it also is used in the inverted position for second degree initiation in traditional Wicca, particularly Alexandrian. In its inverted form, it represents the balance of Earth, Air, Fire, & Water dominating the Spirit. The three degrees of initiation, & thus the pentagram, follow a Witch's growth in his or her Craft, & his or her commitment to achieve balance in all things. At third degree initiation, the Spirit is once again at the top, signifying its power over (& in balance with) the elements.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[Starcrystal]

They still call it a pentagram though (The Baphomet) Like I said Christians will lump everything together. I've heard some say that it represents the morning star of Lucifer, but it's interesting Jesus is also refered to as the Morning Star.
And in some cases they will say the pentagram is used to summon demons, but what I have seen is the hexagram used for the place where the demon manifests and the pentagram being the place where the summoner stands for protection.

 

[Cerridwen]

Yeah, I'd say that's about right. Hexagrams are frequently used in Ceremonial Magic. Lucifer was referred to as the 'Star of the Morning', but what many Christians tend to ignore is the fact that Lucifer isn't Satan. I haven't heard the pentagram referred to as the morning star of Lucifer, but like I said, some people like to assign their own meanings, so I wouldn't be surprised if a misinformed wannabe 'satanist' claimed that's what it is. Still, the pentagram was a Christian symbol before it became anything else, lol. Some symbols tend to become perverted over time & used to represent something that isn't at all what it was originally supposed to, which isn't always a bad thing, except when said symbols suddenly are made to represent evil or hateful things, like the swatiska, for example.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[Telrunya]

Lucifer is Satan. Satan is a term that means accuser or advesary. That is Lucifer.

 

[morningstar2651]

Lucifer is Satan. Satan is a term that means accuser or advesary. That is Lucifer.

Where in the Bible is this stated?

 

[Telrunya]

^ Nice!

Check this out, especially those Christians who are quick to judge "witches" or anyone else not of their path:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=10680167&posted=1#post10680167

Truth is, if Jesus were here on earth today, many church people would accuse him of being a witch himself!

I find this very interesting:

http://www.wellreadwitch.com/jcwitch.htm

Deuteronomy 18:10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,

Let's take a look at this article and compare it to scripture.

1. Jesus criticized the hypocrisy and legalism of the religious status quo, and chose to embrace an alternative spiritual path. Matthew 23:1-36. In Jesus' day, the religious establishment included the Pharisees and Sadducees, dominant factions in first century Judaism. Jesus' alternative path followed the radical teachings of his mentor, John the Baptist. Nowadays, in Europe and the Americas the status quo is mainly Christianity; the path of the Goddess -- Wicca -- is one of the most compelling of available spiritual alternatives. Many people who embrace Wicca have the exact same criticisms of Christianity that Jesus is said to have had about the religious establishment in his day. Hypocrisy, legalism, blind obedience of the rules to the point of ignoring spiritual values like love, trust, and freedom -- these are the problems Jesus attacked in the official religion in his day, and that many Wiccans today see in the religious status quo of our time. Perhaps Jesus, were he here today, would join Wiccans in criticizing mainstream religion and trying to find an alternative way.

I could write enough about this first statement to fill a book. First off Jesus was not on an alternative spiritual path. Nothing he said conflicted with the intent of the Law. The problem Jesus had with the teachers of the Law (ie pharisees and sadducees) was that they followed the letter of the Law and thought they were righteous when the intent in their hearts was to find every loop hole they could. Second: John the Baptist was Jesus' mentor?!?! This is a news flash. John the Baptist was the herald not the mentor.

Matthew 3:1-3 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: "A voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’

I also seriously doubt John saw himself as the mentor:

Matthew 3:11-15 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

Third is the hypocrisy of wiccans who don't like to be lumped in with pagans or satanist or anyother group accusing ALL christians of this. Yes I believe thaqt practicing witchcraft is wrong. The bible is fairly clear about that as I pointed out in Deut 18:10. Two verses I do my best to live by are:

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

2. Jesus was a psychic healer. Luke 6:19; John 9:1-12. Luke comments that "all in the crowd were trying to touch him, for power came out from him and healed all of them." And John recounts how Jesus made a magic healing paste by mixing his saliva with soil from our Mother, the Earth. For Jesus, healing was a central part of his spiritual identity. Witches, likewise, rely on herbal wisdom, natural foods, and psychic practices like reiki to bring healing and comfort to themselves and their loved ones. Sadly, the Christian religion rarely encourages its followers to take responsibility for their own healing, but rather colludes with a medical establishment that keeps people passive in regard to their own wellness. Jesus the healer has much more in common with Wiccan healers than with church-going "patients."

Talk about slanting something your way. Ok, the fact that Jesus used clay in healing the blind man was 2 fold. 1) God made us from the earth. The earth is his creation and has no life of it's own. 2) he wanted the man to keep his eyes closed and follow his instructions. This is a matter of faith, not magic. There was nothing magical about the dirt Jesus used. Next, the center of Jesus' spiritual identity was love not healing. And finally this guy has no more clue about christianity than he claims christians do about wiccans or he would know about laying on of hands and intercessory prayer for healing.

3. Jesus acknowledged the divinity within each person. John 10:34-36. All he was doing was quoting the Psalms, but Jesus emphasized it: "You are gods." Throughout the Bible, Jesus uses mystical language to illustrate the essential unity between humanity and divinity. How sad that the church founded in his name lost that sense of human divinity, and has instead stressed the "fallenness" and "separation" that keeps humanity alienated from the divine. Incidentally, this is an indirect affirmation of Goddess spirituality, as well -- for if we are gods, as Jesus quoting the scripture insists, then both men and women partake of the godly nature; implying therefore that God encompasses both the masculine and feminine dimension of life. So the "God" whom Jesus worships incorporates both the God and the Goddess as revered by Wiccans.

All I'm going to say about this is read these verses and Psalm 82:6 in context. I firmly believe that Jesus had a sense of humor and had a firm grasp on the power of a sarcastic comment.

4. Jesus lived close to nature. Matthew 8:20; Mark 1:12-13; 3:13; Luke 4:42; John 18:1. Jesus took a vision quest in the wilderness; he loved to pray in the mountains, slept in gardens, and made a point of telling his followers that he had no house to live in. Frankly, it's hard to imagine him driving an SUV or worshiping in an air conditioned church. If Jesus were here today, I suspect he'd live in an ecologically sustainable intentional community, and he'd advocate a sacred duty to the Earth with the same zeal which which he advocated care for the poor and the downtrodden.

Ummm can anyone say Left field? Jesus prayed in the synagogs and at the temple. Yes he went into the wilderness to be alone, just as we christians have our private prayer time with God. Yes God wants us to be good stewards but he also placed the earth and all the animals under man's dominion. Dominion- equates to dominance over. You might want to check out what Jesus did to the fig tree that didn't have any fruit for him before continueing on this line of thought.

5. Jesus believed in magic. Matthew 7:7-11. Only he called it prayer. "How many of you, if your child asks for a fish, will give them a stone?" "If you ask for it in my name, it will be done." Church-goers often see magic as different from prayer, because prayer is timid and uncertain: "Not my will, but thine." By contrast, magic assumes that the Divine Spirit loves us and wants to bless us in accordance with our highest desires. When Jesus prayed, he prayed with confidence, not timidity. And he taught his followers to do the same. Nowadays, magic may have fancy window dressing (light this candle, recite this incantation, etc.) but it still comes down to the same thing: making a request for spiritual blessing. Jesus' vision of prayer is like Wicca's vision of magic: it's based on trust and love, unlike the prayer of church religion, which is based on fear, self-criticism and self-doubt.

My prayer is never uncertain or timid. It is a respectful suplication but I have faith the size of a mustard seed. Wanna see me move a mountain? Magic on the other hand is quiet differant.

6. Jesus could command the weather. Matthew 8:23-27. Witches have a long-standing reputation for being able to conjure up storms and otherwise control the weather. Jesus, like any accomplished weather-witch, possessed a similar set of skills. He did this both actively (like when he calmed the storm out in the Sea of Galilee) and indirectly (as he was dying, he caused darkness to reign in the middle of the day).

Ummm... He's God. Hello! He created the earth and the weather. Equivicating him to a witch isn't only ludacris but is insulting.

7. Jesus had a profound relationship with the elements. Matthew 14:22-26; Luke 3:16; Luke 8:22-25; John 9:6. Jesus could walk on water; he could command the wind; he baptized with fire, and he used the soil of the Earth to make healing pastes. His spirituality was primal and grounded in the power of the elements. Modern-day Christianity is abstract, sterile, and anti-septic -- it is a religion of books, words, and mental concepts. But Jesus, like most modern-day Wiccans, found vitality in the energies of the natural world.

See comment above. Also note that his spirituality wasn't grounded in the elements but in the Father in heaven.

8. Like a shaman, Jesus could channel spirits. Mark 9:2-8. One of the most profound stories in the Bible is that of the transfiguration, when Jesus conjured the spirits of Moses and Elijah. To his followers, this demonstrated Jesus' authority as a spiritual leader. Later on, Jesus tells his followers that they will do greater works than his (John 14:12); ironically, though, Christianity does not permit its followers to invoke or conjure spirits. But invocation of benevolent spirits has been a part of shamanic spirituality since the dawn of humankind, and modern-day Witches follow in this shamanistic tradition when they Draw Down the Moon and the Sun, calling the spirit of Goddess and God into their Circles.

Oh boy. Once again we go far afield hunting for what isn't there. Jesus did not "Conjure" anything. You show me where it says in scripture that he did. He was transfigured by the power of the Holy Spirit

I don't have time tonight to go into the rest of it because it gets really wacky from here on but I will tomorrow.

 

[morningstar2651]

And if I did any of the things Jesus did in the bible in front of you...you would call me a witch.

 

[Rae]

Truth is the Pentacle was corrupted at a later time. Some used it for evil purposes, inverting it and honoring Satan.

The Christian cross is frequently inverted, too, yet Christians still use the upright cross and don't consider it evil just because Satanists invert it. Why's the pentacle a different case? I don't get it.

 

[Boneddiges Cymraeg]

Lucifer is Satan. Satan is a term that means accuser or advesary. That is Lucifer.

If Lucifer isn't Satan, then who is he?

 

[morningstar2651]

Satan is the term for adversary.
If you can find in the bible where it states that Lucifer is Satan, then by all means, call him Satan.

The Lucifer/Satan connection?

Bishop Lucifer Calaritanus (??? - 371AD)
His date of birth and the history of his youth are not known, but he must have been born early in the fourth century. His name demonstrates that "Lucifer" (meaning "light-bringer") was not yet merely a synonym of "Satan" in the 4th century. Hasty references by enthusiastic 19th century biblical scholars assumed from the name that the Luciferians were Satanists.

 

[SquareC]

It actually doesn't state anywhere in the bible that Lucifer is Satan. Satan is not referenced in the bible as an individual.