Witchcraft, is it evil?

[pensive]

Really?

I'm not known for lying. I've been known for being mistaken at times, though.

I have always hated that definition because its premised on the false assumption that pre-Christian Pagan Europe had anything even resembling a unified religious mythos, which it didn’t.

I'm not sure I agree at all. The person who taught me that definition happens to be one of the most well-versed people when it comes to the religious history of pre-Christian Europe I know. He's quite aware that there was no unified religious mythos. And yet he finds the definition useful. I personally think it's because he approaches the subject from an anthropological viewpoint.

Consider the anthropologists' use of the words "shamanism" and "shaman," for example. Anthropologists tend to study the existance of individuals in many different cultures that they label as "shamans." They are not implying any unifying religious mythos between these various cultures. Instead, when the discuss shamans and shamanism, they are talking about people and practices that -- while expressed differently based on the context of the individual shaman's culture -- share common methodological characteristics, characterisitics that most generally feel were best described by Mircea Eliade.

To my mind, saying that witchcraft is European shamanism (or to express it more closely to how I originally learned it, witches were the shamans of Europe) isn't so much as claiming a common religious mythos, but describing different practices that have common characteristics in their methodologies. It still leaves room for those practices to be diversified throughout Europe based on individual regions' cultural uniqeness.

It also assumes that there is only one form of witchcraft practiced today, which there isn’t.

Again, I don't think it's necessary to assume any such thing, much for the same reasons I described above.

Either one of those flaws is enough to make my teeth grind automatically.

Hopefully, my further clarification on what exactly I mean by that definition will give you sufficient cause to spare your teeth.

 

[morningstar2651]

The words witch, pagan, and heathen all have negative connotations. That is why some people consider them to be 'evil'.

so how come so many people think Lucifer and Satan are the same?

Bishop Lucifer Calaritanus (??? - 371 ce)
His date of birth and the history of his youth are not known, but he must have been born early in the fourth century. His name demonstrates that "Lucifer" (meaning "light-bringer") was not yet merely a synonym of "Satan" in the 4th century. Hasty references by enthusiastic 19th century biblical scholars assumed from the name that the Luciferians were Satanists.

 

[pensive]

so how come so many people think Lucifer and Satan are the same?

Because of another Bible passage. To be specific, the Bible passage is Isaiah 14:12-15. Let me quote it here:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

The earliest manuscripts (presumably including the original) of this passage were written in Hebrew, if memory serves. (The other possibility is that it was written in Aramaic, which is a clsoe relative of Hebrew.) "Lucifer" was not the name used in the Hebrew manuscripts. It was the Hebrew name, Heyliel. (My spelling may be off.) After the establishment of the Church in Rome, the entire Bible was translated to Latin.

Now, you have to remember that in ancient times, the meaning of names were important. As such, when translating a manuscript from one language to another, it was common practice to change the name of a person or place into another name or place in the new language that had the same meaning as the name in the original language. (This is, for example, how the "son of a Jewish carpenter" named Yeshua became more widely known by his Greek name, Jesus.) When the translators that translated Isaiah into Latin came to this passage, they followed that practice. They looked at the name Heyliel which meant "morning star" or "bright and shining star" in Hebrew and translated it to the name that mean roughly the same thing in Latin, Lucifer.

Since then, this practice of assigning importance to the meanings of proper names and therefore "translating" them to other languages like the rest of the text fell out of favor, and the name Lucifer has stuck with Satan ever since.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

I'm not known for lying. I've been known for being mistaken at times, though.

O am sorry I intended that as an expression of surprise not an accusation of dishonesty. I certainly didn’t think you were fibbing, and I am sorry if you read it that way.

I'm not sure I agree at all. The person who taught me that definition happens to be one of the most well-versed people when it comes to the religious history of pre-Christian Europe I know. He's quite aware that there was no unified religious mythos. And yet he finds the definition useful. I personally think it's because he approaches the subject from an anthropological viewpoint.

Consider the anthropologists' use of the words "shamanism" and "shaman," for example. Anthropologists tend to study the existance of individuals in many different cultures that they label as "shamans." They are not implying any unifying religious mythos between these various cultures. Instead, when the discuss shamans and shamanism, they are talking about people and practices that -- while expressed differently based on the context of the individual shaman's culture -- share common methodological characteristics, characterisitics that most generally feel were best described by Mircea Eliade.

To my mind, saying that witchcraft is European shamanism (or to express it more closely to how I originally learned it, witches were the shamans of Europe) isn't so much as claiming a common religious mythos, but describing different practices that have common characteristics in their methodologies. It still leaves room for those practices to be diversified throughout Europe based on individual regions' cultural uniqeness.

I see, yes actually that makes a lot more sense.

Again, I don't think it's necessary to assume any such thing, much for the same reasons I described above.

Fair enough then. Based on your previous argument, I agree.

Hopefully, my further clarification on what exactly I mean by that definition will give you sufficient cause to spare your teeth.

It certainly does. In fact, I will go further and say that based on your argument I think you have persuaded me.

Ghost

 

[pensive]

O am sorry I intended that as an expression of surprise not an accusation of dishonesty. I certainly didn’t think you were fibbing, and I am sorry if you read it that way.

No need to apologize at all. I actually understood exactly what you meant. I just chose to give into my impulse to be silly a moment. So perhaps I should apologize to you, rather.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

No need to apologize at all. I actually understood exactly what you meant. I just chose to give into my impulse to be silly a moment. So perhaps I should apologize to you, rather.

Not at all, not at all. A bit of silliness is a good thing now and then. I thought that was the case, I just wanted to apologise in case I was wrong and I had offended you needlessly. (Its always best to offend people intentionally don’t you know *)

Ghost

*Yes Mods I am joking.

 

[Volos]

Personally, I've always liked the definition in which witchcraft is referred to as "the shamanism of Europe."

I also dislike that comparison largely because Wicca is not shamanic in nature and really bares no resemblance to Shamanaic religions.

 

[pensive]

I also dislike that comparison largely because Wicca is not shamanic in nature and really bares no resemblance to Shamanaic religions.

Actually, I'm going to disagree with that assertion. But then, I suppose it primarily depends on how one tends to view "Wicca." If one bases one's impressions of Wicca primarily on the writings of people like Scott Cunningham, Silver Ravenwolf, and even Raymond Buckland, I can see where one would come to that conclusion. Instead, I base my impressions on the writings of earlier authors (most notably Gardner) and discussions with initiates who tend to recommend anthropological studies of various tribal cultures who do practice shamanism over most of those books I mentioned previously.

 

[Boneddiges Cymraeg]

Pensive,

Thankyou for that. It explains a lot to me.

 

[proverbs_31_woman]

Good Morning! I am new to this, and started by reading all of this thread, and I have a opinion on it. But I also have a question. This is a Christian Forum. Why are their pagans, witches, wiccans, athiest and other postings? Why are you even reading what Christians have to say? Also, to our brothers and sisters in Christ, why are you conversing with those clearly not of God? Does Gods word not tell us to shake the dust from our feet? Yes Jesus did associate with harlots theives and all kinds. But He didnt sit around having a tea party with satan, or milk and cookies with those who were about to kill him. He told them the Truth and they either followed Him or they did not. He didnt need to argue the Truth. So do we? Im quite sure all of these non christians know the Bible as well as we do. (some maybe better) They (pagans wiccans witches athiest and all occults) have made a choice, to worship other gods/goddess, nature and or nothing. What can we do as Christians about it? Pray for them, and then shake the dust from our feet! Arnt there enough people in your own lives who need Jesus, that you could witness the Truth too? There are so many lives that could be saved if Christians would be more Christ-like. In the amount of time spent arguing the Truth, you could have been praying for that person, or helping a neighbor Christian or non-Christian. Brothers and Sisters in Christ I beg you, quit arguing the Truth. Get along with the Fathers bussiness! Do you not realize this time wasting is what satan wants? That he wins souls when you waste time arguing, its a plot straight from hell. A 30 second plea to God will do more than arguing 30 years with any one!
As for the question is witchcraft evil? The Bible says so and I have never read where Jesus was casting any spells. He came and got along with the Fathers business!!! As should we!!!

 

[Eve_Sundancer]

Maybe we all just enjoy the debates here?

Seriously, the point of this whole folder is to discuss and debate non-Christian religion. We, as non-Christians, are not asking to be saved from our "sinful" lives. We just enjoy learning about other faiths (including Christianity) and having a nice intelligent discussion.

 

[SnowBear]

Good Morning! I am new to this, and started by reading all of this thread, and I have a opinion on it.

Hello…welcome to the forum

But I also have a question. This is a Christian Forum. Why are their pagans, witches, wiccans, athiest and other postings? Why are you even reading what Christians have to say?

There are those people who do not mind challenging their spirituality and their religion. Sometimes a good argument helps individuals clarify a point of faith for themselves.

Also, to our brothers and sisters in Christ, why are you conversing with those clearly not of God? Does Gods word not tell us to shake the dust from our feet? Yes Jesus did associate with harlots theives and all kinds.

you are flattering us with the comparisons

But He didnt sit around having a tea party with satan, or milk and cookies with those who were about to kill him.

if we are such horrible and disgusting people why are you posting here?

He told them the Truth and they either followed Him or they did not. He didnt need to argue the Truth. So do we? Im quite sure all of these non christians know the Bible as well as we do. (some maybe better) They (pagans wiccans witches athiest and all occults)

Technically occult just means hidden. As such atheists are hardly occult and to most extents neither are any of the Neo-Pagan traditions.

have made a choice, to worship other gods/goddess, nature and or nothing.

I have never met anyone who worships nature.

What can we do as Christians about it? Pray for them, and then shake the dust from our feet! Arnt there enough people in your own lives who need Jesus, that you could witness the Truth too? There are so many lives that could be saved if Christians would be more Christ-like.

I agree…far to often on these forums we se Christians acting in very non-Christian ways… arguing for legalized discrimination against gays and lesbians, attacking the faith of other Christians, scolding other Christians for treating Pagans and witches like good and decent human beings.

In the amount of time spent arguing the Truth, you could have been praying for that person, or helping a neighbor Christian or non-Christian. Brothers and Sisters in Christ I beg you, quit arguing the Truth. Get along with the Fathers bussiness! Do you not realize this time wasting is what satan wants? That he wins souls when you waste time arguing, its a plot straight from hell. A 30 second plea to God will do more than arguing 30 years with any one!

Well so far a few months of arguing with Christians has only deepened and solidified my faith in the Goddess and that isn’t a bad thing.

As for the question is witchcraft evil? The Bible says so and I have never read where Jesus was casting any spells. He came and got along with the Fathers business!!! As should we!!!

But the bible also says that eating lobster and wearing clothing made of mixed fabrics is a sin and that murdering certain people (homosexuals, witches, rape victims) is a good thing. Considering this I don’t see how anyone can take anything the bible says regarding what is and what is not evil.

 

[morningstar2651]

Is it wrong becuase the bible says so...
or does the bible say it is wrong because it is so?

 

[ravenscape]

Good Morning! I am new to this, and started by reading all of this thread, and I have a opinion on it. But I also have a question. This is a Christian Forum. Why are their pagans, witches, wiccans, athiest and other postings? Why are you even reading what Christians have to say? Also, to our brothers and sisters in Christ, why are you conversing with those clearly not of God? Does Gods word not tell us to shake the dust from our feet? Yes Jesus did associate with harlots theives and all kinds. But He didnt sit around having a tea party with satan, or milk and cookies with those who were about to kill him. He told them the Truth and they either followed Him or they did not. He didnt need to argue the Truth. So do we? Im quite sure all of these non christians know the Bible as well as we do. (some maybe better) They (pagans wiccans witches athiest and all occults) have made a choice, to worship other gods/goddess, nature and or nothing. What can we do as Christians about it? Pray for them, and then shake the dust from our feet! Arnt there enough people in your own lives who need Jesus, that you could witness the Truth too? There are so many lives that could be saved if Christians would be more Christ-like. In the amount of time spent arguing the Truth, you could have been praying for that person, or helping a neighbor Christian or non-Christian. Brothers and Sisters in Christ I beg you, quit arguing the Truth. Get along with the Fathers bussiness! Do you not realize this time wasting is what satan wants? That he wins souls when you waste time arguing, its a plot straight from hell. A 30 second plea to God will do more than arguing 30 years with any one!
As for the question is witchcraft evil? The Bible says so and I have never read where Jesus was casting any spells. He came and got along with the Fathers business!!! As should we!!!

Welcome to Christian Forums! I see this is your first post to the forums.

You will be happy to know that there are a large number of forums here that are for Christians only, so it's very easy to shake the dust from your feet.

It's interesting that you chose this forum for your first post given your feelings about wasting times with heathens.

Fare thee well!

 

[markie4u2001]

in this country witchcraft is considered a religion. as long as there are no human sacrifices witches are protected by the law. i think witchcraft is evil because they worship satan.

Frrom what i read on this forum witches don''t believe in satin. That's like saying all non christian religions worship satin. That may be true because of his nature, I'm just glad I won't be judging them. I don't think I would want to throw people of other faiths into the lake of fire.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Good Morning! I am new to this, and started by reading all of this thread, and I have a opinion on it. But I also have a question. This is a Christian Forum. Why are their pagans, witches, wiccans, athiest and other postings?

Becasue they have something to say and this section is open to everyone?

Why are you even reading what Christians have to say?

Why shouldn’t they? Do people only care about the views of those that they share a religion with, that sounds like a recipe for prejudice.

Also, to our brothers and sisters in Christ, why are you conversing with those clearly not of God?

Because I like them, I respect them and they have things to say that are worth hearing whether or not I agree with hem.

Does Gods word not tell us to shake the dust from our feet? Yes Jesus did associate with harlots theives and all kinds. But He didnt sit around having a tea party with satan, or milk and cookies with those who were about to kill him.

Well I don’t think they served milk and cookies at the last supper, but he did dine with a man he knew had betrayed him to his death. Besides which I am pretty certain the pagans here have no intention of killing me.

There are so many lives that could be saved if Christians would be more Christ-like.

I’m not certain what is Christ-like about ignoring people who don’t share our beliefs.

As for the question is witchcraft evil? The Bible says so and I have never read where Jesus was casting any spells.

Different kind of witchcraft I think, of course we will never know if we don’t open our hearts to the possibility of conversing with people who don’t share our religion.

Ghost

 

[pensive]

I’m not certain what is Christ-like about ignoring people who don’t share our beliefs.

What I want to know is, how does one effectively share the gospel with a nonbeliever if one doesn't enter into a sincere and open dialogue with them first?

But then, that's probably my old IVCF student leader training popping up.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Frrom what i read on this forum witches don''t believe in satin.

Don't they? Probably why all the pagans I know wear a lot of velvet then.

That's like saying all non christian religions worship satin.

I think some of them are rather fond of Cotton Drill as well.

Ghost
(sorry, couldn’t resist).

 

[SquareC]

Don't they? Probably why all the pagans I know wear a lot of velvet then.



I think some of them are rather fond of Cotton Drill as well.

Ghost
(sorry, couldn’t resist).

You killed it, Ghost! One more "evil witchcraft" threads bites the dust!

 

[DJ_Ghost]

You killed it, Ghost! One more "evil witchcraft" threads bites the dust!

happy birthday by the way.

ghost