Wisdom Teeth

[MattTheAgnostic]

Discuss in relation to creation

 

[dad]

Discuss in relation to creation

I think we used to be able to grow new teeth as needed, not just have the two sets we now get. The wisdom teeth, in my opinion are left over traces of how we evolved from the created state.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I think we used to be able to grow new teeth as needed, not just have the two sets we now get. The wisdom teeth, in my opinion are left over traces of how we evolved from the created state.

At least you are still trying to keep up your role as board comedian.

 

[Logic_Fault]

Discuss in relation to creation

Bad design which reflects poorly on a supposedly omnipotent designer. I can only conclude that we are not designed, the designer is not omnipotent or the designer does not exist. Not much else to say I think.

 

[Morcova]

I think we used to be able to grow new teeth as needed, not just have the two sets we now get. The wisdom teeth, in my opinion are left over traces of how we evolved from the created state.

You really do just make it up as you go along don't you?

 

[AirPo]

You really do just make it up as you go along don't you?

That's what the HI Theory is all about.

 

[DaveISBG]

Discuss in relation to creation

It is well documented by anthropology, and is also mentioned in the Bible that human beings where at one time much larger. The skulls of these giants had larger jaw bones that could easily accommodate wisdom teeth. Some large skulls have been found complete with wisdom teeth that show wear.

Examples of the discovery of these giants:
Midwest regions, thousands of burial mounds dotted the landscape. The Smithsonian Institution investigated them and conducted excavations in order to determine their origins. Many burial mounds have yielded remains of Giant Human Beings, as well as artifacts. What is unusual about them they are frequently of people 8 to 12 feet tall?

There was a race or group of people found in Australia called "meganthropus" by anthropologists. These people were of very large size--estimated between 7 to 12 feet tall found with mega tool artifacts.

More large skeletons were found in the Humboldt lake bed in northwestern Nevada. The first of these two skeletons found measured 8 1/2 feet tall and appeared to have been wrapped in a gum-covered fabric similar to the Egyptian manner. The second skeleton was almost 10 feet long.
And the discoveries go on and on.

 

[Nitron]

There was a race or group of people found in Australia called "meganthropus" by anthropologists. These people were of very large size--estimated between 7 to 12 feet tall found with mega tool artifacts.

Apes.

 

[sidhe]

There was a race or group of people found in Australia called "meganthropus" by anthropologists. These people were of very large size--estimated between 7 to 12 feet tall found with mega tool artifacts.

Not quite...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meganthropus

...not Australia, not giants, and not called "meganthropus" anymore.

 

[keith99]

Wisdom teeth are an example of micro evolution, not macro evolution. Or so a good creationist would say. Micro evolution is absolutely anything except for a new species poping up in a single generation. Thus anything that would be a reasonable expectation of divergence can safe;t be ignored as micro evolution.

 

[Washington]

Not quite...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meganthropus

...not Australia, not giants, and not called "meganthropus" anymore.

From the link.

"Meganthropus has been the target of numerous extreme claims, none of which are supported by peer-reviewed authors. Perhaps the most common claim is that Meganthropus was a giant, one unsourced claim put them at 9 feet (2.75 meters) tall and 750 to 1000 pounds (340 to 450 kilograms). No exact height has been published in a peer reviewed journal recently, and none give an indication of Meganthropus being substantially larger than H. erectus."​

ON WISDOM TEETH:

Anthropologists believe wisdom teeth, or the third set of molars, were the evolutionary answer to our ancestor’s early diet of coarse, rough food – like leaves, roots, nuts and meats – which required more chewing power and resulted in excessive wear of the teeth. The modern diet with its softer foods, along with marvels of modern technologies such as forks, spoons and knives, has made the need for wisdom teeth nonexistent. As a result, evolutionary biologists now classify wisdom teeth as vestigial organs, or body parts that have become functionless due to evolution.​

Because human jaws have become smaller throughout evolutionary history, when wisdom teeth form they often become impacted, or blocked, by the other teeth around them. Also, if the tooth partially erupts, food can get trapped in the gum tissue surrounding it, which can lead to bacteria growth and, possibly, a serious infection.​

Wisdom teeth that do not erupt but remain tucked away can also lead to oral problems, such as crowding or displacement of permanent teeth. On very rare occasions, a cyst (fluid filled sac) can form in the soft tissue surrounding the impacted wisdom tooth. These cysts can lead to bone destruction, jaw expansion, or damage to the surrounding teeth. Even more uncommonly, tumors can develop in the cysts, which can lead to the jaw spontaneously breaking if the tumor or cyst grows too much.​

There are patients that develop wisdom teeth that function just as well as every other tooth in the mouth, and as a result they do not need to go under the knife. But no one can predict when third molar complications will occur, and the American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons estimates that about 85 percent of wisdom teeth will eventually need to be removed.​

source​

If creationism is true, the 85% figure points to a very inept god.

 

[talkingmonkey]

bit of a thread hijack.

With the appendix, it's vestigial.
It can give the body huge infection, and if taken out will increase the quality of life for the person.

As far as I'm aware, it was used to absorb poisons and such from experimenting with unfamiliar food.

Will it begin to disappear? Or is there still a use for it that we do not know about?

 

[CCGirl]

meganthropus

Are we talking about Java Man? (That we learnt about in grade 7 Social Studies?)

 

[dad]

You really do just make it up as you go along don't you?

No. I give out the obvious to those less fortunate, that can't see it.

 

[MattTheAgnostic]

bit of a thread hijack.

With the appendix, it's vestigial.
It can give the body huge infection, and if taken out will increase the quality of life for the person.

As far as I'm aware, it was used to absorb poisons and such from experimenting with unfamiliar food.

Will it begin to disappear? Or is there still a use for it that we do not know about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiform_appendix#Latest_Interpretation:_Maintaining_gut_flora

 

[MattTheAgnostic]

I think we used to be able to grow new teeth as needed, not just have the two sets we now get. The wisdom teeth, in my opinion are left over traces of how we evolved from the created state.

What do you believe the benefits from this evolution are?

 

[dad]

What do you believe the benefits from this evolution are?

It may be that our needed adjustment to the new world after the big changes of the past, forced some adapting to take place. For example, I hear some dogs are bred with brain cages that are too small, so they yelp a lot. It doesn't mean the the adapting is for some benefit. The changes that happened were leaving the world a worse place, not better, and we likely had to adapt to all that, the best we could.

 

[MattTheAgnostic]

It may be that our needed adjustment to the new world after the big changes of the past, forced some adapting to take place. For example, I hear some dogs are bred with brain cages that are too small, so they yelp a lot. It doesn't mean the the adapting is for some benefit. The changes that happened were leaving the world a worse place, not better, and we likely had to adapt to all that, the best we could.

But consider two people in the present day. One get's two sets of teeth which cannot be replaced and some wisdom teeth that will cause problems in the majority of people and have to be removed. The other person has the ability to maintain a full mouth of teeth and no problems with wisdom teeth. Obviously the second person has an advantage over the first and so should be favoured over the first.

 

[RichardT]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v18/i3/wisdom_teeth.asp

 

[Bushido216]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v18/i3/wisdom_teeth.asp

I hear "post and run" makes someone cool.

Anyway:

Have you ever wondered why people have aches and pains from wisdom teeth? Some people think wisdom teeth may be evolutionary 'left-overs'. Others wonder if wisdom teeth have simply not yet evolved perfectly. What's the answer?

There's no such thing as "evolving perfectly". The author demonstrates his lack of understanding of evolutionary theory by suggesting an evolutionary "end-point" or goal. No such concept exists in proper evolutionary theory.

Orthodontist John W. Cuozzo, DDS, MS, from New Jersey in the United States, says wisdom teeth are definitely not evidence for evolution. He says that from the vast amount of research he has done on Neanderthal children's fossils, the problem seems to be that human jaws are shrinking as time goes on.

Orthodontistry gives him questionable at best qualifications to be making claims on anything to do with evolutionary theory. That aside, there are no citations. Even if he's quoting himself, he needs to provide some journal articles, always from a peer-reviewed source, to back up his work. Either that, or it should be said up front that this is conjecture and not a finished piece of work. Otherwise, the "vast amount of research" he has done means squat.

'Based on my Neanderthal research and current studies', Dr Cuozzo says, 'it seems as if human jaws are becoming smaller over time. This has made the space in the back of the jaws smaller and smaller for the eruption and proper positioning in the bite for third molars, also known as wisdom teeth.'

Not being a biologist I'll leave this to the experts. It may turn out that he's infact correct, but it's also irrelevant. Again, though, there is a complete lack of citation.

Dr Cuozzo believes the reason this is happening is that children are maturing much faster today than in the past.

An excavation in 1990 of some graves in Griswold, Connecticut, dated from the late 1600s-1700 seems to confirm his research. There were 13 children's remains discovered. Only one was found with initials on the wood of the coffin. It read N.B. — age 13 and was written in brass tacks.

There are so many things wrong with this I don't even know where to start.

1. The "researcher" went grave digging.
2. There are NO citations. What reason do I have to believe any of this is true?
3. The basis of this entire article rests on ONE childs remains?

When the teeth of the lower jaw were examined at the Armed Forces Insititute of Pathology (AFIP) in Washington, D.C., the root and crown development indicated that, by today's standards, these teeth should have belonged to a female child of 9 1/2 years, or a male child of 10 years, yet the child was 13.

Citation please. At this point, either AiG is making this up, or it's plagiarizing. In good scientific journals, even quoting oneself is plagiarism if you don't cite yourself.

So, choose, RichardT. Is AiG liars or plagiarists?

'This means', Dr Cuozzo says, 'that three or four hundred years ago a child took 13 years to reach the stage that our children today do in 9° to 10 years. This points to a rapid maturation today.'

No, it means that ONE CHILD from ONE GRAVEYARD developed slowly in comparison to a child today. No details about the nutrition or health of the child are provided or even conjectured. Was the child developmentally challenged? Mal-nourished? We don't know. This isn't good science.

Dr Cuozzo duplicated all of the dental x-rays and photographs of these children at AFIP in 1992.

He says wisdom teeth need more space than can develop in our shortened jaw growth period. Children are taller today, and mature earlier, probably because of improved early nutrition (not evolutionary improvement). But the facial bones need more than nutrition — they need time. 'It's time we don't get any more.'

Doc Cuozzo scuppers his own argument here. The change is due to changes in nutrition. Genetically changes are minor if at all present between the time this supposed child lived and now. The scuppering is more complete later on. Once again, this "Doctor" is basing his entire thesis off of ONE body that he provides no record ever existed.

Not only that, but he and AiG are now also plagiarizing the AFIP, if that research ever even existed.

It is this fact, that the wisdom teeth are trying to erupt into a jaw space too small for them, which causes many of the problems. He says that there are other problems also with the eruption of wisdom teeth, and that many people do not even develop wisdom teeth today.

'This is not from a process of evolution, but devolution' [original emphasis], he says. 'The degeneration and reduction of complexity of the human body is what is really happening.

Doc Cuozzo may well be correct that wisdom teeth develop those specific issues. I won't go into that. What truely scuppers his point is that he contradicts himself.

1. Claims that an increase in rate of maturation is due to nutritional changes only.
2. Claims that the inability of the wisdom teeth to develop normally is due to evolutionary forces.

Granted, the author uses "devolution", which is a non-scientific term and again conflates evolutionary theory with Lamarckian evolution, or a march towards perfection. However, even to the author both marches are caused by the same forces, genetic changes over time.

Doctor Cuozzo is presenting an internally contradictory arguement with regards to wisdom teeth.

'This, of course, is due to the fact that Adam fell and we have been suffering and groaning under the curse resulting from this fall ever since.'

Apparently God didn't provide AiG with the ability to cite quotations or references, or to provide a consistent arguement.

All emphasis except that which was noted is my own.