Wisdom from Ancient Theologians

Rick Otto · Jan 13, 2016

All4Christ said:
@

RickOtto - I don't want to get into a deep debate here, but I've been taking a closer look at some of those verses recently. I'd like to propose an alternative interpretation.

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." - Ephesians 1:3-6

For the sake of argument, consider the use of "us" to mean the Church, rather than individuals. The Ephesians were Gentiles. It's a pretty powerful thing to think about: God predestined not only Jews, but also Gentiles to be a part of the Church and therefore to be adopted as sons of God. This wasn't an afterthought. Rather, this was predetermined to occur from the foundation of the world.

So why are some predetermined to be adopted while others are not? God is all-knowing and is not bound by time. God foresaw who has and will accept His gift. Because of their future acceptance, He predetermined that they will be adopted as sons of God. Again, keep in mind that He predetermined that Gentiles who accept His gift, not just a Jews, were to be adopted as well.

The original interpretation you proposed does not work with many other scriptures. God desires all men to have eternal life! John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:2

This is supported by the writings of the early Church Fathers.

St. Gregory Palamas explained this concept well:

St. Ireneous of Lyons

Thanks, yes well, I agree the gentile in-grafting was culture shock, no doubt.
I am ambivalent about free will, though. "Free" is SO relative, however I am insistent on personal accountability, but not out of any interest in validating autonomy. I'm not sure I even have enough ambition to achieve autonomy.
I confess I don't have the popular minimum $50,000 to lure professional financial advisors with.
I have sort of cornered myself into trusting God.

I'm not just sayin' that, either. I viewed retirement as a cliff, but walking in faith has brought me new opportunities for post retirement employment in the area of my God-given talent.

Thanks for your contribution.

Rick Otto · Jan 13, 2016

~Anastasia~ said:
Thanks Rick. I remember you and I tried to have the conversation. And perhaps I don't have a mature understanding of Calvinism (or perhaps the variety I was taught was just a little more hard-lined) but yes, that's the part I backed over and erased. It was tending into that anyway.

I understand not wanting to back off from something you believe in that way. I had something of an epiphany of my own just about two years ago, and this is probably the most important of several factors that led to my decision to become Orthodox. But what it means for me is that I cannot undo what I understand now. But I will say, we (mankind) need to remain aware that there is often a balance in many Truths with other Truths, and to completely ignore the other side of the coin can create a mis perception of reality. I believe certainly that God loves us all ... but I don't wander into what I used to hear as the "God loves you and wants you to have a wonderful life and blessings" that never mentioned repentance or humility or taking up one's cross, etc.

But what really interested me about your post is your description of your childhood. I am either the same or opposite you in each point. I was the oldest (an only at that point) but I remember pondering eternal questions at four years old (you beat me by six months, lol). I especially had trouble with the concepts of eternity and the infinite, though to be honest, at that point, the thought of eternal life made more sense to me than death. I have pre verbal and pre walking memories too - my earliest was something less than six months and was only a fuzzy concept of myself and my mother feeding me - but I don't think I remember my first nightmare.

Anyway, I always thought I was a little strange for all of that - maybe not exactly special. But I didn't expect anyone else would relate. It does make me wonder other things about how your formation led to how you encounter things of faith - but I'm afraid that really would derail the thread. I just tend to wonder about such things, I guess.

I am glad to hear that your family is well. I pray you have a blessed year, since we are near the beginning of it. In whatever form that takes in God's wisdom and mercy.

You write the best posts. You know, when we share a piece of ourselves, it is priceless, no matter what we are talking about. You dear, are very special.

~Anastasia~ · Jan 14, 2016

Rick Otto said:
You write the best posts. You know, when we share a piece of ourselves, it is priceless, no matter what we are talking about. You dear, are very special.

You are too kind.

But I do value sharing what is real between us. I think I must give credit to God even for that. I am sure I would be infinitely more self-centered to the exclusion of caring about anyone else's life, were it not for His grace.

God be with you and yours!

fhansen · Jan 14, 2016

~Anastasia~ said:
Very true. Faith is the foundation of everything. Without it there is nothing at all. If it is true saving faith, and one submits to God, then holy and righteous works, changes, actions, thoughts, etc. should follow.

This is critical to understand. Faith is the foundation of justice, or justification; it's not the essence of it, or end-all of it, or the definition of it.

~Anastasia~ · Jan 14, 2016

fhansen said:
This is critical to understand. Faith is the foundation of justice, or justification; it's not the essence of it, or end-all of it, or the definition of it.

I do think we need to be careful not to put too much emphasis on simple belief, or even belief + fear of The Lord. After all, even the demons believe and tremble.

The real major difference between demons and the faithful in such regards seems - to me - to be the disposition of their hearts.

Which I think is a necessary component of "saving faith" and the impetus for the "works" and the rest of sanctifying features. Along with the necessity of grace, of course.

fhansen · Jan 14, 2016

~Anastasia~ said:
I do think we need to be careful not to put too much emphasis on simple belief, or even belief + fear of The Lord. After all, even the demons believe and tremble.

The real major difference between demons and the faithful in such regards seems - to me - to be the disposition of their hearts.

Which I think is a necessary component of "saving faith" and the impetus for the "works" and the rest of sanctifying features. Along with the necessity of grace, of course.

Yes, and I think that the correct disposition of our hearts is summed up by the greatest commandments. Love is the authentic motivation for good works. Love defines man's justice most completely. It's not a side-note to the Christian faith-it's the core of it, which is why Paul could say "...if I have a faith that can move mountains, and have not love, I am nothing". And that love is greater than faith and hope. And why theologians have taught that faith can exist without love, but avails nothing.

If we have love, of the kind and quality God desires, we lack nothing; it far surpasses in value any theological knowledge we may possess. It's the product of communion with God, which is the intended product of faith, which is the product of grace.

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2016

~Cassia~ said:
The topic of the armour of God which your post erroneously quoted. Christians are given the sword of the word of God as their offensive weapon against the wiles of the devil. Why do you as a professing christian use a different sword to combat other professing Christians and attempt to disarm those Christians who are using the God-given sword of the word of God?

But the Word of God is not solely written. It's also spoken.

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2016

Fireinfolding said:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Where it says,

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

By faith into this grace there.

Looking for the word "alone"?

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2016

Rick Otto said:
We are, in spite of everything!(lol).
Yes, I love a good tease, and you are personable, so I trust you, even when I know you "aren't right".

If you check your bible, I am like about 99.999% sure that wherever you see God valuing "us", the "us" are his "elect" (see the first few versus of Eph), NOT all of humanity. I don't mean to be the booger in the sugar, but I started caring about God and His truth at 3& 1/2 yrs old. I will never forget that moment. It was my first epiphany.
I have pre-verbal and pre-walking memories, too. I remember my first nightmare and lots of stuff like that.
I don't glow in the dark though, so I don't think of myself as special.
I grew up the youngest of four intense and verbal personalities, so I grew up trying harder and longer to be considered an equal. Sorry if I become overbearing.
You seem very even tempered. I respect and admire that. Thanks for your attention.

I don't think an all-Merciful God would create souls and they not be included in His Elect. That would be evil, to me. Instead, I believe everyone is eligible to be His Elect, we have to say yes to him, and then we are His Elect. That's the purpose of going out into all the world, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Fireinfolding · Jan 14, 2016

Root of Jesse said:
Looking for the word "alone"?

No why?

Nevermind dont answer I dont have time for your pathetic games today.

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2016

Fireinfolding said:
No why?

Nevermind dont answer I dont have time for your pathetic games today.

Then why did you ask? It was a statement, though that doesn't come across in print. Where is the word 'alone' in your quotes? As in Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, etc.

BTW, I didn't know I was supposed to be entertaining you. Sorry you find my attempts 'pathetic'. I'm not here to entertain. I'm here to educate. And to push the Truth.

Aelred of Rievaulx · Jan 14, 2016

The purpose of this thread is to find glorious quotes from ancient theologians concerning matters of faith not give opinions like "sola this or solo that" which are anachronistic coming to bear only in the sixteenth century. If you can't find some wisdom from between the Patristics to Aquinas or Palamas then stop derailing this thread!

Root of Jesse · Jan 14, 2016

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
The purpose of this thread is to find glorious quotes from ancient theologians concerning matters of faith not give opinions like "sola this or solo that" which are anachronistic coming to bear only in the sixteenth century. If you can't find some wisdom from between the Patristics to Aquinas or Palamas then stop derailing this thread!

Sorry for my part...

~Anastasia~ · Jan 14, 2016

Aelred of Rievaulx said:
The purpose of this thread is to find glorious quotes from ancient theologians concerning matters of faith not give opinions like "sola this or solo that" which are anachronistic coming to bear only in the sixteenth century. If you can't find some wisdom from between the Patristics to Aquinas or Palamas then stop derailing this thread!

Please forgive me for my part in this. I love the idea of the thread, which is why I am here.

Shane R · Jan 15, 2016

I'm not intentionally derailing the slow progression of the thread, but this snippet from Peter Abelard has been churning in my mind for most of a week:

It seems to us that we have been justified by the blood of Christ and reconciled to God in this way: through this unique act of grace manifested to us - in that his Son has taken upon himself our nature and persevered herein in teaching us by word and example even unto death - he has more fully bound us to himself by love; with the result that our hearts should be enkindled by such a gift of divine grace, and true charity should not now shrink from enduring anything for him.

And we do not doubt that the ancient Fathers, waiting in faith for this same gift, were aroused to very great love of God in the same way as men of this dispensation of grace, since it is written: "And they that went before and they that followed cried, saying: 'Hosanna to the Son of David,'" etc. (Mark 11:9). Yet everyone becomes more righteous - by which we mean a greater lover of the Lord - after the Passion of Christ than before, since a realized gift inspires greater love than one which is only hoped for. Wherefore, our redemption through Christ's suffering is that deeper affection in us which not only frees us from slavery to sin, but also wins for us the true liberty of sons of God, so that we do all things out of love rather than fear - love to him who has shown us such grace that no greater can be found, as he himself asserts, saying, "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). Of this love the Lord says elsewhere, "I am come to cast fire on the earth, and what will I, but that it blaze forth?" (Luke 12:49). So does he bear witness that he came for the express purpose of spreading this true liberty of love amongst men.
-"Exposition of the Epistle to the Romans," trans. Gerald E. Moffatt

Wgw · Jan 15, 2016

shanethetheologian said:
I'm not intentionally derailing the slow progression of the thread, but this snippet from Peter Abelard has been churning in my mind for most of a week:

It seems to us that we have been justified by the blood of Christ and reconciled to God in this way: through this unique act of grace manifested to us - in that his Son has taken upon himself our nature and persevered herein in teaching us by word and example even unto death - he has more fully bound us to himself by love; with the result that our hearts should be enkindled by such a gift of divine grace, and true charity should not now shrink from enduring anything for him.

And we do not doubt that the ancient Fathers, waiting in faith for this same gift, were aroused to very great love of God in the same way as men of this dispensation of grace, since it is written: "And they that went before and they that followed cried, saying: 'Hosanna to the Son of David,'" etc. (Mark 11:9). Yet everyone becomes more righteous - by which we mean a greater lover of the Lord - after the Passion of Christ than before, since a realized gift inspires greater love than one which is only hoped for. Wherefore, our redemption through Christ's suffering is that deeper affection in us which not only frees us from slavery to sin, but also wins for us the true liberty of sons of God, so that we do all things out of love rather than fear - love to him who has shown us such grace that no greater can be found, as he himself asserts, saying, "Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). Of this love the Lord says elsewhere, "I am come to cast fire on the earth, and what will I, but that it blaze forth?" (Luke 12:49). So does he bear witness that he came for the express purpose of spreading this true liberty of love amongst men.
-"Exposition of the Epistle to the Romans," trans. Gerald E. Moffatt

Abelard is ancient enough and on topic; the tragedy of his failed romance with Heloise makes me sad, however.

Wgw · Jan 15, 2016

From St. Athanasius, De Incarnatione:

1. For as, when the likeness painted on a panel has been effaced by stains from without, he whose likeness it is must needs come once more to enable the portrait to be renewed on the same wood: for, for the sake of his picture, even the mere wood on which it is painted is not thrown away, but the outline is renewed upon it;

2. in the same way also the most holy Son of the Father, being the Image of the Father, came to our region to renew man once made in His likeness, and find him, as one lost, by the remission of sins; as He says Himself in the Gospels: I came to find and to save the lost. Whence He said to the Jewsalso: Except a man be born again, not meaning, as they thought, birth from woman, but speaking of the soul born and created anew in the likeness of God'simage.

3. But since wild idolatry and godlessness occupied the world, and the knowledge of God was hid, whose part was it to teach the world concerning the Father? Man's, might one say? But it was not in man's power to penetrate everywhere beneath the sun; for neither had they the physical strength to run so far, nor would they be able to claim credence in this matter, nor were they sufficient by themselves to withstand the deceit and impositions of evil spirits.

4. For where all were smitten and confused in soul from demoniacal deceit, and the vanity of idols, how was it possible for them to win over man's soul and man'smind— whereas they cannot even see them? Or how can a man convert what he does not see?

5. But perhaps one might say creation was enough; but if creationwere enough, these great evils would never have come to pass. For creation was there already, and all the same, men were grovelling in the same errorconcerning God.

6. Who, then, was needed, save the Word of God, that sees both soul and mind, and that gives movement to all things in creation, and by them makes known the Father? For He who by His own Providence and ordering of all things was teaching men concerning the Father, He it was that could renew this same teaching as well.

7. How, then, could this have been done? Perhaps one might say, that the same means were open as before, for Him to show forth the truth about the Father once more by means of the work of creation. But this was no longer a sure means. Quite the contrary; for men missed seeing this before, and have turned their eyes no longer upward but downward.

8. Whence, naturally, willing to profit men, He sojourns here as man, taking to Himself a body like the others, and from things of earth, that is by the works of His body [He teaches them], so that they who would not know Him from His Providenceand rule over all things, may even from the works done by His actual body knowthe Word of God which is in the body, and through Him the Father.

All4Christ · Jan 15, 2016

Do not be ashamed to enter again into the Church. Be ashamed when you sin. Do not be ashamed when you repent. Pay attention to what the devil did to you. These are two things: sin and repentance. Sin is a wound; repentance is a medicine. Just as there are for the body wounds and medicines, so for the soul are sins and repentance. However, sin has the shame and repentance possesses the courage.

- St John Chrysostom on Repentance and Almsgiving

All4Christ · Jan 15, 2016

When you sit down to eat, pray. When you eat bread, do so thanking Him for being so generous to you. If you drink wine, be mindful of Him who has given it to you for your pleasure and as a relief in sickness. When you dress, thank Him for His kindness in providing you with clothes. When you look at the sky and the beauty of the stars, throw yourself at God’s feet and adore Him who in His wisdom has arranged things in this way. Similarly, when the sun goes down and when it rises, when you are asleep or awake, give thanks to God, who created and arranged all things for your benefit, to have you know, love and praise their Creator.”

+ St. Basil the Great, from Homily V.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 15, 2016

Root of Jesse said:
But the Word of God is not solely written. It's also spoken.

Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Hebrews 6:5
having tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,

The power of the spoken word:
Christ is the logos, the living constant word, while the spoken word is the rhema, an instant word, applied to our situations John 4:4 for cleansing Ephesians 5:26
The sword, the spirit and the word are one, ready to be spoken by the spirit (the constant word becoming the instant word) to defeat the enemy in our daily walk. Be prayerful and watchful, staying the ground, alert and not as one who sleeps.

ETA that was the 4th post in this thread on the written word
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ithin-the-written-word.7925505/#post-69084937
if you'd like to look into that further and so as not to derail the thread

Wisdom from Ancient Theologians

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