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Are you suggesting that those who suffer from wine allergy should go ahead and consume wine presented at the LORD's supper as God will protect them?
Ha!!! I wonder how the LDS resolve Jesus turning the water in to wine? And the drinking of wine in the Bible.
Since that was the second time "communion in one kind" has been mentioned in this thread, I looked it up as actual nomenclature.
Okay, I get it...that answers my question to Catholics.
Are you allergic to wine, or allergic to modern wine stabilizers and sanitizers (sulfites, etc)?Are you suggesting that those who suffer from wine allergy should go ahead and consume wine presented at the LORD's supper as God will protect them?
And your point is? Today "grape juice" would be another way of saying wine, much as the Saxon words for beer and barley were the same word.Lion King said:they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. Numbers 6:3
Where's your scriptural evidence for using bread rather than any foodstuff - a mcdonalds hamburger maybe? It's a silly question. Jesus used wine; its appropriate to do the same.Lion King said:I'm still waiting on the Scriptural evidence that only wine should be used to commemorate the LORD's ultimate sacrifice.
and if it's not it'll have some very nasty bacteria growing in it. Un fermented, unpreserved, unrefrigerated fruit juice is not safe to drink unless it's just been squeezed.New Legacy said:By short, you are talking about hours. For our argument - I'll point out that grapes are covered in yeast, the minute it is crushed, the begin to go to work. By the end of the day, the wine would be bubbling away with fermentation.
The simple answer is that they didn't have grape juice back then. Everything was fermented, so it had to be wine that Jesus used at the Last Supper.
Remember that grapes are a seasonal crop--harvested in the fall in Israel. So, yeah, they could have grape juice for a very short time, if they wanted to.
But passover is in the spring, months after the grape harvest. The only way they were going to have liquid "from the fruit of the vine" for passover was by fermentation.
Then I guess you could just say that you have to refrain from partaking of the Lord's supper. Obviously you don't trust that the Lord's Supper will not harm you. So it's good if you refrain, since partaking of the supper in an unworthy manner is to your detriment.
In all the outbreaks of swine flu that ravaged our town, no one got it from drinking out of the common cup for the Lord's supper. I wonder why that is.
He said "take this cup, which is the new covenant of my blood....do this as oft as you do in remembrance of me". The cup he had would've had wine in it, NOT grape juice.
For me, that's enough to know that it should be wine that is used in the Lord's Supper.
Note also that I said I am not a wine only person. I realize there may be instances where it cannot be used. But those instances should be the EXCEPTION, not the rule.
Talk to Mr. Welch about that.
There was a specific purpose for this. Do you know what it was? I'll give you a hint: it's in verse 2. The food/dietary laws in the OT were meant to remind the children of Israel of their standing with God. Note that Jesus talked about those laws and their application in reference to his purpose on earth.
And, furthermore, your translation is probably a "newer" translation. There really honestly wasn't any such thing as "grape juice" back in those days.
Grape juice was invented by Pasteur.
Are you allergic to wine, or allergic to modern wine stabilizers and sanitizers (sulfites, etc)?
Where's your scriptural evidence for using bread rather than any foodstuff - a mcdonalds hamburger maybe? It's a silly question. Jesus used wine; its appropriate to do the same.
And your point is? Today "grape juice" would be another way of saying wine, much as the Saxon words for beer and barley were the same word.
Catholicism exists throughout the world and wine is still required.
Anyone with access to grape juice has access to wine.
That may indeed be correct, but there is a reason Jesus Christ used the term "fruit of the vine" instead of simply saying wine.
In both the Old and New Testaments, the juice from grapes is sometimes used to represent blood. Therefore, if you partake in any drink made from grapes, whether fermented or unfermented, you are following Christ's example.
He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. Genesis 49:11
Oh my goodness. I never knew people could be so blind to historical fact.
There is no actual word that translates into "grape juice" from Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic. Grape juice was known as wine.
This isn't someone playing hard with theology, it's just a statement of fact. Jesus used wine at the Last Supper. The fact that Jesus used wine at the last supper SHOULD be enough to use wine at communion, since Jesus instructed us to do this.
Grape juice should be the rare exception, NOT the rule.
Now what is so impossibly hard about that?
What "real question"? Historical - wine. Traditional - wine. Scriptural - wine. There is NO case for using anything else, so there is no question except for those who like to question for the sake of questioning.
What about people that do not have access to grapes/wine? Believe it or not, the entire world is not living in the luxury of first world comfort. There are indeed many places where Christians not only live in fear and are persecuted, but they do not have access to wine.
Oh my goodness. I never knew people could be so blind to historical fact.
There is no actual word that translates into "grape juice" from Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic. Grape juice was known as wine.
This isn't someone playing hard with theology, it's just a statement of fact. Jesus used wine at the Last Supper. The fact that Jesus used wine at the last supper SHOULD be enough to use wine at communion, since Jesus instructed us to do this.
I'd rather see wine always used and no special attempts made to add preservatives and anti-yeast artificial compounds to prevent fermentation. If one needs low alcohol wine for the use of those who cannot take alcohol then there are several possible solutions to the requirement:Grape juice should be the rare exception, NOT the rule.
Absolutely nothing is difficult about the solutions that you proposed.Now what is so impossibly hard about that?
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