Wine vs. Grape Juice

Lion King · Jan 14, 2014

ebia said:
What he's holding in his hand - the immediate referent - can only be wine.
The less immediate referent is to the messianic banquet, which is always wine.

Again, where is the evidence that the term "fruit of the vine" is always referring to wine?

All you have presented so far is assumption.

Thekla · Jan 14, 2014

abysmul said:
Again, what about all the Christians TODAY that have no access to wine?

As a matter of love for God and respect, do the best you can ...

As I've mentioned before, Christians in the Soviet camps would save raisins and soak them to make the closest to wine they could.

ebia · Jan 14, 2014

Lion King said:
Grape juice wasn't invented yet? How did the Israelites make wine then?

You press grapes and leave em for a bit.

The idea that the intermediate step might be considered something in its own right only makes sense once you can safely preserve it. Until then it makes rather less sense than thinking of bread-dough as a food to eat in that state.

ebia · Jan 14, 2014

Lion King said:
Again, where is the evidence that the term "fruit of the vine" is always referring to wine? All you have presented so far is assumption.

It's as much an assumption as assuming sunrises happen in the east.

Messianic banquet stuff always talks about wine. All Jesus could have there was wine. Neither of those two are up for debate.

Lion King · Jan 14, 2014

abysmul said:
Again, what about all the Christians TODAY that have no access to wine?

Substitute for something else. What's important is the spiritual meaning behind the LORD's Supper.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 14, 2014

Originally Posted by abysmul

I mentioned watermelon wine and tomato juice earlier

Thekla said:
Tomato is a "new world" (South America) berry

According to Wiki, it is more "old world"

Tomato - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tomato is the edible, often red fruit/berry of the plant Solanum lycopersicum,[1][2] commonly known as a tomato plant. The species originated in the South American Andes [2] and its use as a food originated in Mexico, and spread throughout the world following the Spanish colonization of the Americas. Its many varieties are now widely grown, sometimes in greenhouses in cooler climates.

Aztecs and other peoples in Mesoamerica used the fruit in their cooking. The exact date of domestication is unknown: by 500 BC, it was already being cultivated in southern Mexico and probably other areas.[7]:13
The Pueblo people are thought to have believed that those who witnessed the ingestion of tomato seeds were blessed with powers of divination.[8]

...............About 150 million tons of tomatoes were produced in the world in 2009.
China, the largest producer, accounted for about one quarter of the global output, followed by United States and India. For one variety, plum or processing tomatoes, California accounts for 90% of U.S. production and 35% of world production.[21]

According to FAOSTAT, the top producers of tomatoes (in tonnes) in 2011.[22]
RankCountryProduction
(MT)

China 48,572,9212

India 16,826,0003

United States 12,526,0704

Turkey 11,003,4335

Egypt 8,105,2636

.

Lion King · Jan 14, 2014

ebia said:
It's as much an assumption as assuming sunrises happen in the east.

Is it safe to say that you have no evidence to present?

EDIT: Nazarites were not allowed to drink or eat anything of the "fruit of the vine". This included wine, vinegar made from wine, grape juice, grape flesh etc.

Lion King · Jan 14, 2014

ebia said:
You press grapes and leave em for a bit.

The idea that the intermediate step might be considered something in its own right only makes sense once you can safely preserve it. Until then it makes rather less sense than thinking of bread-dough as a food to eat in that state.

they must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or other fermented drink. They must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. Numbers 6:3

Kristos · Jan 14, 2014

Lion King said:
Grape juice wasn't invented yet? How did the Israelites make wine then?

With slaves, obviously

RDKirk · Jan 14, 2014

MKJ said:
There were some places in the past where lack of locally produced wine was an issue. This was one of the reasons it became common in some places to give communion in one kind.

Since that was the second time "communion in one kind" has been mentioned in this thread, I looked it up as actual nomenclature.

Okay, I get it...that answers my question to Catholics.

abysmul · Jan 14, 2014

Lion King said:
Substitute for something else. What's important is the spiritual meaning behind the LORD's Supper.

I personally agree with you. I guess the real question would be to those that say "wine only"...

Kristos · Jan 14, 2014

abysmul said:
I personally agree with you. I guess the real question would be to those that say "wine only"...

What "real question"? Historical - wine. Traditional - wine. Scriptural - wine. There is NO case for using anything else, so there is no question except for those who like to question for the sake of questioning.

Lion King · Jan 14, 2014

Kristos said:
What "real question"? Historical - wine. Traditional - wine. Scriptural - wine. There is NO case for using anything else, so there is no question except for those who like to question for the sake of questioning.

Do you have any Scriptural evidence that states that only wine is to be used at the LORD's supper?

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 14, 2014

MJohn7 said:
Surely you can see wisdom in a recovered alcoholic not drinking wine. Is he not obeying the Lord if he drinks only juice? If its acceptable then for him to drink only juice, then why would anyone else be any different?

Lion King said:
Are you suggesting that those who suffer from wine allergy should go ahead and consume wine presented at the LORD's supper as God will protect them?

You're talking a small swig of wine that is also Jesus' body. If Jesus were standing in front of you right now, would you dare suggest to him that his own body would cause you to sin?

Lion King said:
Do you have any Scriptural evidence that states that only wine is to be used at the LORD's supper?

the word ampelos means vine, and in every instance listed in the bible, it refers to a grapevine. So Jesus used wine.

I'm not a wine only person, but I do believe that wine SHOULD be used, because it's what Jesus used.

Kristos · Jan 14, 2014

Lion King said:
Do you have any Scriptural evidence that states that only wine is to be used at the LORD's supper?

Is this Sacramental Theology 101? Where shall we start with Abraham? Read the hospitality and the encounter with Melchizedek and we can go from there.

MJohn7 · Jan 14, 2014

PreachersWife2004 said:
You're talking a small swig of wine that is also Jesus' body. If Jesus were standing in front of you right now, would you dare suggest to him that his own body would cause you to sin?

the word ampelos means vine, and in every instance listed in the bible, it refers to a grapevine. So Jesus used wine.

I'm not a wine only person, but I do believe that wine SHOULD be used, because it's what Jesus used.

I dont dare anything. We must all stand in front of Christ one day to answer for ourselves.

George95 · Jan 14, 2014

At my church we use wine in Communion. When the whole swine flu breakout drama happened, I continued to take communion. As The EO Church administers Communion through the chalice and the spoon, people got afraid of being sick. I personally feel that it being the Body and Blood of Christ, all diseases and faults will not stand against it.

As for using grape juice, I don't see why it's necessary to replace wine with grape juice. If anything, it's just a small "portion" and it won't affect you in any way.

seashale76 · Jan 14, 2014

Seriously- I recommend some of you look into microbiology. Fermentation happens unless you do something to stop it. The process to stop fermentation wasn't invented until the 19th century. Anytime in the scriptures it talks about wine- it means that it is fermented. You actually have NO wiggle room on this.

Lion King · Jan 14, 2014

Kristos said:
Is this Sacramental Theology 101? Where shall we start with Abraham? Read the hospitality and the encounter with Melchizedek and we can go from there.

I'm still waiting on the Scriptural evidence that only wine should be used to commemorate the LORD's ultimate sacrifice.

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 14, 2014

Lion King said:
I'm still waiting on the Scriptural evidence that only wine should be used to commemorate the LORD's ultimate sacrifice.

I guess the fact that Jesus used it isn't good enough for you?

Wine vs. Grape Juice

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