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Also- these 'what if' scenarios are putting human limitations on God. 'What if I'm allergic, gluten intolerant, etc.?' 'What if I'm an alcoholic?' Christ is in the Eucharist, folks. I take the body and blood of Christ from a communal spoon that has been dipped into a communal chalice (filled with water, wine, and bread) and given to a lot of people before me- and I've survived (and so has everyone else who receives this way). It's a faith thing. To change the elements is to put your own views and needs over what God wants.
To change the elements is to put your own views and needs over what God wants.
Repeat of an older post of mine:
Let me put it to you this way: This wasn't even a discussion or question that occurred before the advent of the Temperance Movement in the United States starting back in the mid-1800s. Thomas Bramwell Welch invented the process to stop fermentation in 1869. That's how new this issue of yours is. Wine is fermented. Every time the scriptures mention wine it means there's alcohol in it. Can't get around that.
People around here keep playing these 'what if' scenarios. If obtaining communion wine was a real problem in the last 2000 years, we would have heard about it. My God provides. Clergy who had been imprisoned found a way to put together vestments and celebrate Divine Liturgy for the Pascha of 1945 at Dachau with the correct elements. In Iran, Christians have recently been sentenced to receiving 80 lashes for using wine during communion. If they can get it together the rest of us don't have much of an excuse.
Also- these 'what if' scenarios are putting human limitations on God. 'What if I'm allergic, gluten intolerant, etc.?' 'What if I'm an alcoholic?' Christ is in the Eucharist, folks. I take the body and blood of Christ from a communal spoon that has been dipped into a communal chalice (filled with water, wine, and bread) and given to a lot of people before me- and I've survived (and so has everyone else who receives this way). It's a faith thing. To change the elements is to put your own views and needs over what God wants.
That's pretty normal - one of the main issues is unsafe water, and you can add a reasonable amount of unsafe water to wine and the anti bacterials in the wine will deal with it if left to stand.RDKirk said:I consider it a point of adiaphora as well. I would note that Justin Martyr reported in the 2nd century that they cut their wine with water during their services. Other reading I've done indicates that cutting the wine with water was the common way of taking it during meals. Or if we take 1 Timothy 5 into consideration, maybe they were cutting their water with wine.
Fermentation changes the substance, exchanging sugars for alcohol.Lion King said:What is wine made out of? Is it not grape juice? Both are of the SAME SUBSTANCE. The only difference is that one is fermented and the other is not.
Jesus drank of the FRUIT OF THE VINE.
And He said to them, This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. 25 Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God. Mark 14:24-25
As wine is made ENTIRELY from the fruit of the vine, it's acceptable.
As grape juice is made ENTIRELY from the fruit of the vine, it's acceptable.
Originally Posted by seashale76
Also- these 'what if' scenarios are putting human limitations on God. 'What if I'm allergic, gluten intolerant, etc.?' 'What if I'm an alcoholic?' Christ is in the Eucharist, folks. I take the body and blood of Christ from a communal spoon that has been dipped into a communal chalice (filled with water, wine, and bread) and given to a lot of people before me- and I've survived (and so has everyone else who receives this way). It's a faith thing. To change the elements is to put your own views and needs over what God wants.
Paul suffered a bite from a viper and lived, oh ye of little faith..........Are you suggesting that those who suffer from wine allergy should go ahead and consume wine presented at the LORD's supper as God will protect them?
I consider it a point of adiaphora as well.
I would note that Justin Martyr reported in the 2nd century that they cut their wine with water during their services. Other reading I've done indicates that cutting the wine with water was the common way of taking it during meals.
Or if we take 1 Timothy 5 into consideration, maybe they were cutting their water with wine.
Paul suffered a bite from a viper and lived, oh ye of little faith..........
Act 28:
3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.”
5 But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.
6 However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead.
But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god......
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Tomato is a "new world" (South America) berryI mentioned watermelon wine and tomato juice earlier
That's quite a stretch, especially since there is absolutely no way that Mark could have meant modern grape juice because it wasn't invented yet...besides that I don't see any holes in your logic
What he's holding in his hand - the immediate referent - can only be wine.Lion King said:Yes. That's why I asked for Scriptural evidence.
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