Wine to juice, why not water?..

[Radagast]

And do you not know (or care) that exposure to alcoholic beverages even in SMALL quantities are fully capable of triggering relapses in recovering alcoholics??

It was of this very concern that Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869 created the non-alcoholic "fruit of the vine" as a SAFE communion substance.

AFAIK, traditional AA practice was to allow a tiny sip of communion wine without jeopardising "sober" status. Some alcoholics take a low-alcohol option, if available, or partake only of the bread.

Special arrangements for alcoholics need not drive what everybody else is given.

 

[The Liturgist]

Different persons have posted the answer to that question on other threads, but that change came only about a century or so ago, and it was the result of a campaign by the Welch's Grape Juice company.

That's why I always smile a little bit when reading the very vehement posts from advocates of grape juice, complete with what they have been told in their churches about linguistic intricacies, scientific studies of alcohol percentages in wine, how grapes were processed 2000 years ago, how to interpret the relevant Bible verses, and so on.

I am opposed to the use of anything except plain red wine dilluted prior to communion with boiling hot water, in accordance with the ancient tradition of the Church, for the Eucharist. White wine is unacceptable because it does not resemble blood, and grape juice is I think acceptable only as a substitute in Islamic countries where proper wine cannot be obtained.

 

[The Liturgist]

AFAIK, traditional AA practice was to allow a tiny sip of communion wine without jeopardising "sober" status. Some alcoholics take a low-alcohol option, if available, or partake only of the bread.

Special arrangements for alcoholics need not drive what everybody else is given.

I don’t believe that the Eucharist, if received worthily, can harm a member of the congregation.

 

[Radagast]

I don’t believe that the Eucharist, if received worthily, can harm a member of the congregation.

I agree, and I believe that a similar attitude lies behind the old-school AA advice.

The idea that a means of Grace could simultaneously be a temptation to sin seems theologically odd, it seems to me.

 

[Carl Emerson]

AFAIK, traditional AA practice was to allow a tiny sip of communion wine without jeopardising "sober" status. Some alcoholics take a low-alcohol option, if available, or partake only of the bread.

Special arrangements for alcoholics need not drive what everybody else is given.

Amazing how we empower the Alcohol and accept brothers and sisters being captive to it for life...

We broke bread with up to 25 at risk inner city dwellers and never had a problem sharing a cup of wine together because we believed that obeying a command of Jesus could not bring compromise or calamity. And so it was, many receiving healing as we partook in obedience.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I don’t believe that the Eucharist, if received worthily, can harm a member of the congregation.

Are you prepared to jeopardize a fellow Christian based on your "belief"??

The Assemblies of God have always used "Welch's" (Red or White), since we know that "Communion" isn't "magic", nor is it "Sacramental". It's just an ordinance we honor, generally once each month.

 

[Albion]

Are you prepared to jeopardize a fellow Christian based on your "belief"??

That would depend on the basis of that belief, wouldn't it?

The Assemblies of God have always used "Welch's" (Red or White), since we know that "Communion" isn't "magic", nor is it "Sacramental".

...and the Assemblies of God date back to shortly after the campaign for doing away with the use of wine in favor of grape juice had gained favor with some of the smaller Protestant churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

Are you prepared to jeopardize a fellow Christian based on your "belief"??

The Assemblies of God have always used "Welch's" (Red or White), since we know that "Communion" isn't "magic", nor is it "Sacramental". It's just an ordinance we honor, generally once each month.

Since we do not agree on sacramental theology, or on theology in general, I feel it would be best if we simply lovingly respected each other in Christian charity, with thanksgiving for the freedom of religion we both enjoy.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Agreed - it's just "theology".

 

[Carl Emerson]

In the meantime we bow to a 12 step programme that does not set folks free...

We modify our response to Jesus command so as not to upset a failed programme of rehabilitation.

Have we become so disempowered that we no longer address the spiritual source of alcohol bondage.

You tell me this doesn't happen?

On the cutting edge of the Kingdom we see Jesus doing exactly what He did back then, and in so doing, left us an example to follow.

I know folks wonderfully and totally free of the addiction to whom taking a sip of wine in obedience is no issue because they are truly set free.

Especially during the bread and wine He chooses to minister His healing grace.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I get it some people are alcoholics, and yet some are gluttons simotaniously.
Should that mean we should disregard that there was wine in 'the cup'?
In persuit of favor of men, at what point did the Lord's supper change from a shot of wine (which cannot get you 'drunk' anyway) to some juice? (Is this not disregarding truth in favor of men, contrary to the true custom in which we were to be in Christ?) Why not water?
Nobody would be 'dissipated' in wine, with drunkeness however have we not been taught to have discernment, and to have wine in rememberance in Christ as not only a symbol of the new covenant He made with us, but also a reflection of taking part in His grace?

I feel marijuana (in legal territory) should be handled with the same reverence in Christ.

I get it, people get addicted to alcohol and stay away from it.
Yet is it not to our weakness where He is strong? Why do organizations like AA keep people from embracing this honorable liturgy in reverence for God rather than man?

Technically, "wine" as spoken of in the Bible is grape juice, fermented or not. "New Wine" is fresh grape juice. They didn't get to enjoy it often (except when it was "new") because the fermentation process starts so soon. But fermented wine was able to keep and they made use of it.

People didn't drink water like we drink water today. People drank wine or various beers, particularly root beers. Alcohol levels were low but they were present to kill germs and prevent spoilage. Alcohol isn't bad in and of itself. It's the amount and how someone uses it. Just like sugar. In fact, I think sugar is as bad as or worse than alcohol.

Makes no difference to me whether fermented wine or unfermented grape juice is used for communion - to me they both are in line with Biblical "wine". But the alcohol prohibitionist mentality is very outdated. Alcohol should be seen as many other things in our foods - it is a drug but can be very helpful in proper amounts while it can also be damaging in improper amounts. For sure the same can be said of sugar. You can say the same for caffeine, tannins, and other things we consume as well.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I am opposed to the use of anything except plain red wine dilluted prior to communion with boiling hot water, in accordance with the ancient tradition of the Church, for the Eucharist. White wine is unacceptable because it does not resemble blood, and grape juice is I think acceptable only as a substitute in Islamic countries where proper wine cannot be obtained.

Is there a historical source or church father quote for that claim?

It is my impression that using juice was from the abstinence movement.

I once visited an Epistiple Church, I was not aware the Priest would keep pouring down. If I did not put my hand up. And, I hate to say that little bit got me drunk.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

1 Corinthians 11:21
For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

How does one get drunk on grape juice?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Are you prepared to jeopardize a fellow Christian based on your "belief"??

The Assemblies of God have always used "Welch's" (Red or White), since we know that "Communion" isn't "magic", nor is it "Sacramental". It's just an ordinance we honor, generally once each month.

Does Romans 14 relate?

 

[thecolorsblend]

In Mass, those struggling with temptation are not obligated to drink. They can simply receive the host. I agree with others who question how the means of grace could ever result in temptation but, either way, there's no obligation to drink from the cup.

 

[Hiep]

I get it some people are alcoholics, and yet some are gluttons simotaniously.
Should that mean we should disregard that there was wine in 'the cup'?
In persuit of favor of men, at what point did the Lord's supper change from a shot of wine (which cannot get you 'drunk' anyway) to some juice? (Is this not disregarding truth in favor of men, contrary to the true custom in which we were to be in Christ?) Why not water?
Nobody would be 'dissipated' in wine, with drunkeness however have we not been taught to have discernment, and to have wine in rememberance in Christ as not only a symbol of the new covenant He made with us, but also a reflection of taking part in His grace?

I feel marijuana (in legal territory) should be handled with the same reverence in Christ.

I get it, people get addicted to alcohol and stay away from it.
Yet is it not to our weakness where He is strong? Why do organizations like AA keep people from embracing this honorable liturgy in reverence for God rather than man?

I believe that it's the grapes that mattered. When you eat with someone there are multiple covenants going on. One is a threshold covenant(if meat is involved), salt covenant, etc. There are some covenants with wine but I forgot, but it had to do with grapes rather than alcohol itself.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Isaiah 25:6 Expanded Bible (EXB)
God’s Banquet for His Servants
6 The Lord ·All-Powerful [Almighty; of Heaven’s Armies; T of hosts] will prepare a feast
on this mountain [C Mount Zion; 24:23] for all people.
It will be a feast with all the best food and wine,
the ·finest [tenderest; full of marrow] meat and ·wine [well-aged/filtered wines].

Isaiah 25:6 Good News Translation (GNT)
God Prepares a Banquet
6 Here on Mount Zion the Lord Almighty will prepare a banquet for all the nations of the world—a banquet of the richest food and the finest wine.

Isaiah 25:6 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
6 On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wines,
of rich food filled with marrow, of well-aged wines strained clear.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"Welch's grape juice first came about in 1869 when the American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch, invented a method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation process, preventing it from turning into wine. The result was non-alcoholic and more suitable for church services. Then, it caught on with the temperance movement crowd — long before Prohibition took effect." Grape juice was once the unofficial drink of the Navy

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The story of changing wine to juice in Lord's Supper is here: How Methodists Invented Your Kid's Grape Juice Sugar High