Wine or Grape Juice?

[Metanoia02]

We use Grape Juice for a couple of reasons...
1) Cost. Wine is more expensive. (Even for the cheap stuff)

When Mary came to anoint Christ with expensive oil the disciples had a problem with what looked like a waste of money, but Christ made sure they understood that in honor and worship of Him she gave her best to Him. Why should we look to cut corners when we celebrate the Last Supper in our worship?

2) There is no need to tempt people who may have a problem with alchoholism.

I am an alcoholic. I always receive the blood of Christ when available. I am not tempted. But then again it isn't wine is it.

 

[Michelina]

Given the Catholic belief in transubstantiation. (The idea that the wine and bread are transformed into the blood and the body of Christ) I was wondering why it mattered to Catholics if it was originally wine or grape juice. Since it's going to be transformed then what difference does it make?

We know it was wine. The Last Supper was a Jewish Seder, the Passover meal. It requires wine by Mosaic Law.
The Mass, like the Seder, is a covenant meal; the New fulfills and transforms the Old. The Mass is also a replication of that individual Seder (when the priesthood and the Mass were first established for the New covenant).

2) There is no need to tempt people who may have a problem with alchoholism.

Only the priest must drink the Precious Blood. It's optional for others.

 

[KennySe]

The juice of the vine ferments.
This is the natural course.

(Mr. Welch came up with a process and/or ingerdients to add to the juice of the wine so that it would NOT ferment. This is against the natural course.)

Grape harvest is MONTHS before the Passover. So the juice is stored over all that time, and ferments.

By Apostolic Tradition (Latin: tradidi: to pass on; to hand down) wine was used and unleavened bread was used at that first Mass, which is known as the Lord's Last Supper.

 

[KennySe]

At the same token...we rarely call it Communion. It's always been called the Lord's Supper at my church.

This is an honest question, and is not a debate, Joyful.

What is said by the pastor/minister when you receive the grape juice and the bread?

What is the name given to these two different things? (the grape juice and the bread)
Or are they jointly called "the Lord's Supper" and you get both at the same time? ("Partake of the Lord's Supper." ?)

 

[KC Catholic]

Something that just popped into my mind that may put some folks minds at peace...

When I was in RCIA we discussed communion in non-Catholic Churches. I was raised Methodist and always believed that what I was consuming was the Body and Blood of Christ until I learned about the Catholic teachings on the Real Presence, etc.

Now I was a bit miffed about this and asked if communion in the Methodist Church was all for not. My priest assured me that eventhough the communion is not concsecrated and treated the way the Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican churches treated it - it still provided some graces that those other Churches received in taking communion.

My priest explained that Jesus said "Do this in memory of me" and non-Catholic Churches receive graces for participating in their communion services because they are doing as Christ commanded, eventhough its not the same communion as in the Catholic Church.

So take heart, eventhough it is not the Real Presence and consecrated according to our church (Catholic/Orthodox/Anglican) you are receiving graces for participating in your churches services. Its not complete, please understand that, its not a complete fullness that the Catholic Church contains...but it is not in vain or without merit.

Peace.

 

[Michelina]

it is not in vain or without merit.

So True, KC. Nothing is vain or without merit, if we do it becuase we think it is God's will. God sees the hearts of Methodists and everyone else and blesses them.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

This is an honest question, and is not a debate, Joyful.

What is said by the pastor/minister when you receive the grape juice and the bread?

What is the name given to these two different things? (the grape juice and the bread)
Or are they jointly called "the Lord's Supper" and you get both at the same time? ("Partake of the Lord's Supper." ?)

Thank you, Kenny. Your kindness and respect are greatly appreciated as I have experienced quite the opposite lately.

***Again, I am Southern Baptist, and what I am describing is the way *my* church does this - I know that others do it differently, but this is why my church, and me specifically believe.***

Our "communion" service is always held on Sunday nights - we do this because we feel as though it was evening when the Last Supper actually took place.

The bread and juice are passed out separately, but they are jointly called the Lord's Supper. I have been other Baptist churches where the bread and juice are passed out at the same time. It depends on the church you attend.

We partake of each the bread and the juice, separately, but together as a body, at the same time. In other words, when the bread is passed to the front pew, they hold their piece of bread until the last person in the last pew has received their bread. At that point, the pastor reads from 1 Corinthians 11:23-24...

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

And Matthew 26:26...

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

After the Scripture is read, we all eat the bread at the same time.

The juice is done the same way. After the last person has received it, Pastor reads from 1 Corinthians 11:25-26...

In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

And Matthew 26:27...

Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.

After the Scripture is read, we partake of the juice at the same time.

After this is done, we sing a final song, just as the disciples "sang a hymn and went out into the Mount of Olives."

What you have to realize with us is that we do not believe that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ. We don't believe it to be necessary, nor do I believe it to be Biblical, personally. (Not trying to debate or argue there, just stating my beliefs. I don't need to be told that I am wrong or why! ) We "do it in rememberence of Him." God has a real presence in the Lord's Supper - however, it's a spiritual presence, not a physical presence. The same presence that is in our church and lives. By placing the bread in our mouth, we are not remembering Christ by our mouth, but by our faith. The same goes with the wine/juice. Just like Baptism (water immersion), the Lord's Supper is symbolic. With baptism, it is symbolic of being "buried with Christ, and raised to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus." Immersion is crucial for us, because it symbolizes being dead and buried in our sins, Christ's blood cleansing our sins, and the resurrection of us along with Christ in a new life. It is not crucial for salvation - it's merely an outward profession of an inward decision and faith - however, it is something that God commanded. The Lord's Supper is symbolic of His Death and is to be done until His Return. Christ has already died and rose again - the payment has already been made. The Lord's Supper is to *remember* that. "Do this in rememberence of me."

I hope that clarified a little bit of my background with this and what I believe. Again, I'm not trying to debate, or push my beliefs onto anyone. I respect the Catholic beliefs even though I don't always agree with them. All I ask is for the same respect in return.

 

[Michelina]

Thanks, Joyful Believer. I like the way your church does what it does. Eating the bread simultaneously and the same with the wine is a very nice liturgical expression of 'comm-union': Unity with Christ and each other thru Him.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Thanks, Michelina!

Unity is definitely important...but some nights, I think they do it this way just because we are all clumsy and uncoordinated and trying to pass around the bread and juice at the same time would cause quite a mess for the poor custodians to clean up.

Just kidding, by the way...well...sort of...

 

[KennySe]

I hope that clarified a little bit of my background with this and what I believe. Again, I'm not trying to debate, or push my beliefs onto anyone. I respect the Catholic beliefs even though I don't always agree with them. All I ask is for the same respect in return.

Thanks for your input, Joy. I was curious, thanks.

And if you ever do want someone to push their beliefs on you, all you gotta do is ask.

Peace.

 

[Bastoune]

Joyful: Do you have the Lord's Supper every week?

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Thanks for your input, Joy. I was curious, thanks.

And if you ever do want someone to push their beliefs on you, all you gotta do is ask.

Peace.

Haha!!! Thanks, Kenny! I'll keep that in mind...and the reverse is true as well!

 

[Skripper]

Given the Catholic belief in transubstantiation. (The idea that the wine and bread are transformed into the blood and the body of Christ) I was wondering why it mattered to Catholics if it was originally wine or grape juice. Since it's going to be transformed then what difference does it make?

This is not an attempt at debate. Just a question.

We use Grape Juice for a couple of reasons...
1) Cost. Wine is more expensive. (Even for the cheap stuff)

2) There is no need to tempt people who may have a problem with alchoholism.

For the same reason a pickle can’t be transubstantiated into the Body of Christ: improper matter. The Church has no power to transform grape juice into the Blood of Christ.



The Church’s power is limited in this respect. It possesses only that power bestowed upon her by her spouse and Lord, Jesus Christ. That being the power to transform bread (not a pickle, not a doughnut, not chocolate cake –bread) into the Body of Christ. And the power to transform wine (not milk, not water, not beer, not grape juice, etc. –wine) into the Blood of Christ.



Regarding tempting people with alcohol, one need not partake of the chalice to fully receive the Body and Blood of our Lord. Both are present under either species, so one who is worried about being “tempted” with alcohol could partake of the consecrated host only, and still fully receive both the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[Skripper]

For those folks who believe that it was grape juice, either at the Last Supper or any other time in the Bible, there are a couple of Scripture passages that create problems for that belief. Because Jesus Himself says that he was called a drunkard by some. So that just doesn't jive with His drinking grapejuice, does it? One drinking grapejuice can hardly be called a drunkard. Yet we have this:

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." (Matthew 11:19; see also Luke 7:34, which says the same thing).

Also, Jesus turned water into wine, not grapejuice, at the wedding feast at Cana. Would anyone think that Jesus then did not drink of it but rather of His own private stash of grapejuice? No, of course not. It was wine. It was wine at Cana and it was wine at the Last Supper. Thus, wine is the proper (and indeed only) matter that can legitimately be used for communion, if the elements are to be transformed into His Blood.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Joyful: Do you have the Lord's Supper every week?

Sorry, Bastoune...we must have cross posted earlier - I never saw this!

To answer your question...no. At my church, we hold the Lord's Supper on the last Sunday of every month - however, please don't ask the significance of that...I'm honestly not sure!

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

No, DF: in their case it is wine or grape juice, even if they were to think it is Blood. If they want the Body and Blood of Christ, they will have to come to a Church that really has Them.

Oh, I know...I was just trying to instill a bit of reverence for the Blood at our Communion...just got under my skin a bit to see it called wine. No worries though....

Your kindness and respect are greatly appreciated as I have experienced quite the opposite lately

I hope I did not accidentally fall into that category?

If so, I apologize!

 

[prodromos]

Just my 2 cents for whatever they are worth.

Just as we do not bring an offering of flour to be used in communion, but bread, so too we do not bring an offering of grape juice, but wine.

The bread and wine which we bring as an offering is God's anyway, He created it, but like the parable of the talents, it is not enough for us to give back to God what He gave to us like the servant who was given one talent. God requires us to make an effort to use His gifts and make them into something more, hence bread instead of flour and wine instead of grape juice.

God bless,

John.

 

[MParedon]

The bread and wine which we bring as an offering is God's anyway, He created it, but like the parable of the talents, it is not enough for us to give back to God what He gave to us like the servant who was given one talent. God requires us to make an effort to use His gifts and make them into something more, hence bread instead of flour and wine instead of grape juice.

God bless,

John.

Wow, I like that. That was very eloquent. I just love reading stuff like this, it helps me not only to understand better Catholic teaching, but to hold even more reverance to the Church.

 

[Ann M]

I have worshiped at Baptist and Nazarene churches for the last 5 years, and neither used wine or unleavened bread. It was grape juice and a loaf of normal white bread. If it was done each month then it must have been at the sunday night youth service, which i do not attend.

What I found most interesting was the lectures I listened to from friends in bible study of how any alcohol was too much. Complete abstinence was called for. What really irked me most was that the quote most often used was 1 Corinthians 5:19 'Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?' and it was applied not only to the consumption of alcohol, but also laziness, lack of physical excercise, obesity (not everyone is obses through choice), tatoo's, body piercing etc.... And sexual Immorality, which is the context in which this verse appears in the Bible.

I just get frustrated when a verse is used outside of the context in which it was written.