Wine or Grape Juice?

[RhetorTheo]

The Bible refers to Jesus creating wine and drinking wine. Many Protestants say that "wine" doesn't refer to wine, it means grape juice. This despite the clear tradition of Catholics, Orthodox and Orthodox/Lubavitcher Jews going back forever. It's not even a valid Passover meal or Eucharist with grape juice.

They take the clear word "wine," then translate it into something ambiguous like "fruit of the vine," and then construe the ambiguity to mean grape juice. (No different than taking Jesus is "God," then interpret God to mean "heavenly," and then say he's just an angel.)

Jesus talked about being "born again." He said you need to have a spiritual "new wineskin," because an old wineskin can hold old wine but new wine will cause it to burst; new wine requires a new wineskin. Why? Because the wine is releasing gas as it finishes fermenting, and the old wine has completed the fermentation process. The Bible says a good Christian will not drink too much wine; strange that it would matter how much grape juice you drink.

They did not (fundie beliefs notwithstanding) have access to the Welch pasteurization process that was unveiled at the very end of the 1800s.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Well maybe it is cheaper to use grape juice? :X

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Fundie alert!

I was always taught that the reason that we use grape juice instead of wine was because since the wine is fermented it would imply that Jesus's blood was tainted. But it is the symbolism of the blood that is important to us, not necessarily whether it is grape juice or apple juice or...prune juice!

Don't really have anything to back that, not trying to debate...just thought I would throw that tidbit out there!

 

[RhetorTheo]

I would take the opposite view. The alcohol is the "power" of wine, which maketh the heart glad. To use wine robbed of its power is, symbolically, to worship a Christ robbed of His power.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Fundie alert!

I was always taught that the reason that we use grape juice instead of wine was because since the wine is fermented it would imply that Jesus's blood was tainted. But it is the symbolism of the blood that is important to us, not necessarily whether it is grape juice or apple juice or...prune juice!

Don't really have anything to back that, not trying to debate...just thought I would throw that tidbit out there!

Hi fundie person, I hope you know my "maybe grapejuice is cheaper to use" comment was a joke...

 

[JMRE5150]

Many Protestants say that "wine" doesn't refer to wine, it means grape juice. This despite the clear tradition of Catholics, Orthodox and Orthodox/Lubavitcher Jews going back forever. It's not even a valid Passover meal or Eucharist with grape juice.

I'm Protestant...Lutheran to be exact...and we use wine. I'm not sure 'which' protestant denoms your referring to, but it isn't all.We only substitute grape juice for wine if someone requests it for their kids or they are an alcoholic.

I'm curious where you got this information from...

 

[Christy4Christ]

Calvary Chapel uses grapejuice, that I know. Maybe it is because of the giving communion to kids and they think it's illegal to give them wine??

 

[ChoirDir]

Southern Baptists use grape juice as well.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Hi fundie person, I hope you know my "maybe grapejuice is cheaper to use" comment was a joke...

LOL - I did...and literally laughed out loud!

No offense taken, hon...no worries.

Personally, I wouldn't object to wine at communion...but I'm gonna want more than a sip.

Oops. Did I just blow my fundie cover?

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

[/font]




I'm Protestant...Lutheran to be exact...and we use wine. I'm not sure 'which' protestant denoms your referring to, but it isn't all.We only substitute grape juice for wine if someone requests it for their kids or they are an alcoholic.

I'm curious where you got this information from...

I'm Southern Baptist and we use grape juice.

My old church was Independent Baptist and they used grape juice as well.

Maybe it's just a Baptist thing? I dunno.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Its not wine at Communion joyful...its Blood.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Its not wine at Communion joyful...its Blood.

Not in the Baptist church. To us, it is symbolic, not the actual blood. So, that is a big reason why we (as in the different Churches) see the wine/grape juice thing differently, I guess.

At the same token...we rarely call it Communion. It's always been called the Lord's Supper at my church. Hmmm...that just sparked my curiosity. I'm gonna have to research why that is.

Sorry...thinking out loud...not debating...

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

Am I overstepping my bounds in here?

I apologize if so...

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

No, you're not overstepping your bounds. But just remember that it is Blood, no matter if you believe it or not.

 

[Momzilla]

I go to a United Methodist church, and we used grape juice (and leavened bread, for what it's worth). Someone told me that Mr. Welch was a Methodist.

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

No, you're not overstepping your bounds. But just remember that it is Blood, no matter if you believe it or not.

Okay, okay...

We can agree to disagree! I'm definitely not here to argue or debate!

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

I go to a United Methodist church, and we used grape juice (and leavened bread, for what it's worth). Someone told me that Mr. Welch was a Methodist.

We use unleavened bread as well. Growing up, I HATED it...it was like eating a stale cracker...until they explained WHY they used it. I still don't *like* it, but I'm much more willing now. LOL

 

[Credo]

What did Melchizedek offer?

"And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High." Gen 14:18

Bread and wine.

"Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee"; as he says also in another place, "Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek...and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. " Heb. 5:5-6, 9-10

Being appointed a high-priest forever, like Melchizedek of old, Christ offered what at the Last Supper? Bread and wine. And this bread and wine is not just bread and wine for Christ said:

"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:54-56

His flesh is food and His blood is drink. What are His flesh and blood? Bread and wine.

"Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Matt. 26:26-28

What was offered? Bread and wine. Not twinkies and kool-aid, not saltines and grape juice, not fig newtons and ginger ale. The substance must be bread and wine. And what does the Catholic faith tell us they become? Flesh and blood.

Really? "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" (John 6:60). But our Lord says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." (John 6:53). In the Greek, "truly, truly" is "amen, amen" - an oath formula - making Christ's words sworn testimony.

Is it really flesh and blood? "Amen, Amen." Lord, I believe; help Thou my unbelief.

God Bless!

 

[Knight]

Its not wine at Communion joyful...its Blood.

Given the Catholic belief in transubstantiation. (The idea that the wine and bread are transformed into the blood and the body of Christ) I was wondering why it mattered to Catholics if it was originally wine or grape juice. Since it's going to be transformed then what difference does it make?

This is not an attempt at debate. Just a question.

We use Grape Juice for a couple of reasons...
1) Cost. Wine is more expensive. (Even for the cheap stuff)

2) There is no need to tempt people who may have a problem with alchoholism.

 

[Michelina]

No, you're not overstepping your bounds. But just remember that it is Blood, no matter if you believe it or not.

No, DF: in their case it is wine or grape juice, even if they were to think it is Blood. If they want the Body and Blood of Christ, they will have to come to a Church that really has Them.