Debate-For MJ's Only Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

[pat34lee]

I wonder then why all those against this do not want to believe it wasn't a Passover meal? And why they can't believe there were at least two in Jerusalem that year?

So you are saying it is 'fact' even though I've presented evidence against that. Not only that but the scriptures I've posted where Yeshua actually says he will eat the Passover with his disciples, I guess we should throw that out as well?

There were 2 Passovers that year. One in Abib,
and the other a month later as provided for in
Numbers 9.

If you start in Matthew, it begins with a huge
error. The first day of unleavened bread began
before Passover, and even before the lamb
was slaughtered? How did that happen? It
happened because whoever translated from
Hebrew to Greek didn't know the feast dates
or didn't care because they were a Romanized
Christian.

 

[pat34lee]

Question about Passover tradition:

Why is the tradition to recline while
eating the Passover when it is directly
in opposition to the scriptures?
Exodus 12:11

 

[Lulav]

Question about Passover tradition:

Why is the tradition to recline while
eating the Passover when it is directly
in opposition to the scriptures?
Exodus 12:11

Well that's an easy one. The reason we recline is because it is in direct remembrance of that night of the Passing Over where we had to be on our feet and ready to go. Since being delivered out of slavery the tradition is to keep the Passover and recline remembering that time and being thankful we don't have to do all that again. So it's not in opposition at all, just like we don't sprinkle the door posts.

 

[gadar perets]

These passages strongly contradict that.

Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? Matthew 26:17

26:18 I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

19: and they made ready the passover.

Mark 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:7-8
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover,
that we may eat.

The key is in Luke 22:7. If I recall correctly, you believe the lambs were slain at the end of the day, not the beginning. If so, wouldn't Yeshua's disciples need to slay the lamb they supposedly ate at the beginning of Abib 14 on the afternoon of Abib 13? Verse 7, in conjunction with Exodus 12:6, says Abib 14 had already started. Why would Yeshua wait until AFTER the sun set to tell his disciples to prepare the Passover if it needed to be killed BEFORE the sun set?

Also, If Yeshua was using a different calendar, that suggests to me that that calendar is correct and the one the Pharisees were using was wrong. Why, then, aren't you using that calendar year after year instead of the Rabbinic calendar?

 

[AbbaLove]

In the other thread, I didn't see any try to answer why the gospels never mention unleavened bread when talking about the last supper, or the prophecy in Psalms 41:9 which specified lechem.

Likewise, Lulav's reasoning for not including unleavened bread in her introductory sentence ... Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

Apparently, Lulav doesn't believe she needs to prove Yeshua and His Disciples ate unleavened bread to prove that the Last Supper was their Passover meal. Even today it is not unusual for Seders to take place on the 14th. Therefore, it would seem the pertinent question should be ...

Should matzah be eaten at a Seder meal on the 14th, when the Feast of Unleavened Bread doesn't begin until the 15th? However, that discussion is for another thread.​

Preparation for the Last Supper and their "Passover meal" apparently began on the 13th, with the "Last Supper" taking place at the beginning of the 14th. The Feast of Unleavened Bread wasn't until the 15th. Therefore, the thinking goes that regular bread could be eaten at the Last Supper. Therefore, Lulav doesn't need to prove that unleavened bread was eaten at the "Last Supper"

FWIW, Matthew 26:30 in my One New Man Bible reads as follows ..."Then after singing the Hallel they went out to the Mount of Olives."

 

[pat34lee]

Apparently, Lulav doesn't believe she needs to prove Yeshua and His Disciples ate unleavened bread [/SIZE]to prove that the Last Supper was their Passover meal. Even today it is not unusual for Seders to take place on the 14th. Therefore, it would seem the pertinent question should be ...

Should matzah be eaten at a Seder meal on the 14th, when the Feast of Unleavened Bread doesn't begin until the 15th? However, that discussion is for another thread.


Preparation for the Last Supper and their "Passover meal" apparently began on the 13th, with the "Last Supper" taking place at the beginning of the 14th. The Feast of Unleavened Bread wasn't until the 15th. Therefore, the thinking goes that regular bread could be eaten at the Last Supper. Therefore, Lulav doesn't need to prove that unleavened bread was eaten at the "Last Supper".

There is no provision in the scriptures for eating
Passover a day early. The lamb is to be kept until
the 14th and killed in the evening (end of the day).
That makes the Passover meal happening on the
15th day, which is the first day of unleavened bread.

This has the correct order of events, though it does
call the meal a Passover.
The Passover Week

 

[AbbaLove]

There is no provision in the scriptures for eating Passover a day early.

However, a light Passover meal on the 14th is certainly permissible. That's why the "Last Supper" couldn't have been what today is a combined Passover/Unleavened Seder meal (with matzah) which many celebrate on the 14th, thereby moving up the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Leviticus 23:6), and a Passover/Unleavened Seder Service from the 15th to the 14th.

Lulav may be considering the possibility that the "Last Supper" occurred on the evening of the 14th when the original "Passover" of the Death Angel occurred at mid-night on Abib 14. Leviticus 23:5-6 states that Passover occurred on the 14th, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread was on the 15th.

Accordingly, Lulav's reasoning may be open to the possibility that the "Last Supper" was during the first few hours of the 14th. The same was true as the eating of the lambs in Egypt was on the 14th, before the Death Angel came at mid-night on Abib 14 (Exodus 12:21-22).

The lamb is to be kept until the 14th and killed in the evening (end of the day).

The verse doesn't say "and killed in the evening" (end of day). If that was the case then the verse would have said, "until the 15th." Look up the meaning of "until" and you'll find it means the lambs could actually be killed during the 14th (e.g. afternoon), and eaten during the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 15th.

That makes the Passover meal happening on the 15th day, which is the first day of unleavened bread.

Ahhhh, but during the time of Yeshua a light Passover meal was on the 14th as the Feast of Unleavened Bread w/roasted lamb didn't begin until the 15th. But you already knew that

Did you not read the title in full?
Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

The problem, if there is a problem, is that Lulav apparently doesn't think it necessary to include Unleavened Bread as proof that the Last Supper was the Passover meal. In fact she may be correct as during the time of Yeshua a meager Passover meal on the 14th did not include roasted lamb or matzah which wasn't eaten until the 15th. It would not be wrong to refer to Yeshua's Last Supper as a Passover meal on the 14th, before the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 15th.

Therefore, what proof does one really need if they chose to believe that the Last Supper was a light Passover meal that included: Wine, Bread w/soup and Singing. If there is a problem it may be with Messianics that believe Yeshua's Passover meal has to conform to the 'order' of today's Passover Seder Service. Lulav has never said the "Last Supper" was a traditional Passover Seder Service as she has not included "Unleavened Bread" in her introductory sentence ...

Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover
( Lulav didn't say Passover Seder ... just Passover )​

 

[Lulav]

I've brought that up before. It is against the scripture
to leave the house before morning on Passover.
Deuteronomy 16:7

Many don't understand that The first Passover when there was actually a passing over of the angel of death, there were certain things done that were not done in the anniversary celebrations of it.
One part of the things commanded on that first Passover were to sprinkle the blood of the lamb on the doorposts. After that time when the lamb was sacrificed per torah where G-d showed them to do it, it was not put on their doorposts but instead splashed against the foot of the altar.

The scripture you gave said nothing about night either.

 

[Lulav]

For every 'this could prove the last supper was a seder"
there are more saying it's impossible.

In the other thread, I didn't see any try to answer
why the gospels never mention unleavened bread
when talking about the last supper, or the prophecy
in Psalms 41:9 which specified lechem.

Good info for this discussion. Now if that were about Yeshua it might be a good rebuttal but in reading it in context I think this song is more about King David unless you believe Yeshua sinned?

4 I said, “Have mercy on me, Lord;heal me, for I have sinned against you.”
5 My enemies say of me in malice,“When will he die and his name perish?”

6 When one of them comes to see me,he speaks falsely, while his heart gathers slander;then he goes out and spreads it around.

7 All my enemies whisper together against me;they imagine the worst for me, saying,8 “A vile disease has afflicted him;he will never get up from the place where he lies.”

9 Even my close friend,someone I trusted, one who shared my bread,
has turned against me.

We have to be careful not to write into the Psalms what or who we think it refers to. Verse 4 and after shows this is David talking about himself. While some passages can have two meanings or in two time periods we can't say that here without saying Yeshua sinned. And he did not.
Also in verse 9 I don't think Yeshua ever thought Judas was his close friend nor did he trust him, he knew what he was born to do and he had to be within the inner circle to do so. The Hebrew actually means to lift up one's heal not turned against.

Also I shouldn't have to mention it but for others reading sake, the word 'lechem' does not always mean bread, but it also means food. I'm sure if David were eating with a trusted friend he was serving him more than bread.

There is no provision in the scriptures for eating
Passover a day early. The lamb is to be kept until
the 14th and killed in the evening (end of the day).
That makes the Passover meal happening on the
15th day, which is the first day of unleavened bread.

This has the correct order of events, though it does
call the meal a Passover.
The Passover Week

Do you believe that Yeshua was following the corrupt Priesthood in office at that time?

 

[Lulav]

The key is in Luke 22:7. If I recall correctly, you believe the lambs were slain at the end of the day, not the beginning. If so, wouldn't Yeshua's disciples need to slay the lamb they supposedly ate at the beginning of Abib 14 on the afternoon of Abib 13? Verse 7, in conjunction with Exodus 12:6, says Abib 14 had already started. Why would Yeshua wait until AFTER the sun set to tell his disciples to prepare the Passover if it needed to be killed BEFORE the sun set?

Also, If Yeshua was using a different calendar, that suggests to me that that calendar is correct and the one the Pharisees were using was wrong. Why, then, aren't you using that calendar year after year instead of the Rabbinic calendar?

You really need to stop making this about me and concentrate on the post.I really want to discuss this but certain participants in this thread want to make it about me and discuss what I'm thinking or think they know what I'm thinking and make it about that. Enough of the strawmen!

The lambs are slaughtered between the evenings. Yeshua told his two disciples to go and prepare, this was during the day so I don't know why you are asking those questions.

I think this would be much more edifying and educational if we stuck to answering directly instead of turning away from what I present to throw more strawmen in the way.

You quoted my post that said this

These passages strongly contradict that.

Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? Matthew 26:17

26:18 I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

19: and they made ready the passover.

Mark 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:7-8
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover,that we may eat.
​

Now, can you dispute those personal pronouns used and how Yeshua included himself in the eating part? Eating of the Passover meant back then to eat the Lamb, with matzoh and bitter herbs.

 

[Lulav]

​

Likewise, Lulav's reasoning for not including unleavened bread in her introductory sentence ... Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

Apparently, Lulav doesn't believe she needs to prove Yeshua and His Disciples ate unleavened bread to prove that the Last Supper was their Passover meal. Even today it is not unusual for Seders to take place on the 14th. Therefore, it would seem the pertinent question should be ...

Should matzah be eaten at a Seder meal on the 14th, when the Feast of Unleavened Bread doesn't begin until the 15th? However, that discussion is for another thread.​

Preparation for the Last Supper and their "Passover meal" apparently began on the 13th, with the "Last Supper" taking place at the beginning of the 14th. The Feast of Unleavened Bread wasn't until the 15th. Therefore, the thinking goes that regular bread could be eaten at the Last Supper. Therefore, Lulav doesn't need to prove that unleavened bread was eaten at the "Last Supper"

FWIW, Matthew 26:30 in my One New Man Bible reads as follows ..."Then after singing the Hallel they went out to the Mount of Olives."

1. You don't know my reasoning and have been warned repeatedly to stop making this personal. Your little snipes at me are tiresome and needless (see in red above). This isn't about my thinking, my gender, my marital status or any other personal thing. If you can't debate without resorting to that I suggest you bow out now.

2. I've already stated on numerous current threads that I believe that the bread eaten that night was unleavened. This thread I wanted to concentrate on the wine and the hymn but you and others seems to not be able to stay on topic and don't want to refute what I post in the proper way.

I gave my resolution and spirit of resolution in the OP. That is my prerogative as the OP of this debate and shouldn't be used to debate against me for choosing it.

You want to argue the negative side, fine, but please do it properly. The Ad hominems need to stop. Also since I am looking for the truth in this matter as all should I would suggest that Ad populum fallacy not be used as well.

 

[gadar perets]

You really need to stop making this about me and concentrate on the post.I really want to discuss this but certain participants in this thread want to make it about me and discuss what I'm thinking or think they know what I'm thinking and make it about that. Enough of the strawmen!

I am simply addressing the ideas you put forth in your posts. They are YOUR ideas, therefore I reply to you in a personal way. If you do not want to take ownership of them, then I will try to reply generically.

The lambs are slaughtered between the evenings. Yeshua told his two disciples to go and prepare, this was during the day so I don't know why you are asking those questions.

This did NOT take place in the daytime. Luke 22:7 clearly says the day the lambs were to be killed had come. That is Abib 14. If it was the daytime, it would be Abib 13 (a day when the lambs were not killed).

You quoted my post that said this

These passages strongly contradict that.

Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? Matthew 26:17

26:18 I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

19: and they made ready the passover.

Mark 14:14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:7-8
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover,that we may eat.
​

Now, can you dispute those personal pronouns used and how Yeshua included himself in the eating part? Eating of the Passover meant back then to eat the Lamb, with matzoh and bitter herbs.

I already addressed this. He was talking in anticipation of eating it with them, but he knew in his heart he would not. The disciples did not ask the question in Matthew 26:17 after the sun set knowing full well how long that would take. They asked it a day in advance so they would have plenty of time to prepare. It was a week long celebration, not just one night and it started with a pre-seder meal.

 

[DennisTate]

My old church, The Worldwide Church of God, had a theory that the Last Supper was 24 hours before Jews ate the Passover Seder.

If that idea is true... it allowed Messianic Jews to take a Communion supper... and then 24 hours later... eat the Seder with their families.

Whether this was true or not I am not certain.... .but I still think that this is a good theory.