Debate-For MJ's Only Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

[Lulav]

Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

The Singing of a 'Hymn'

Mark 14 and Matthew 26

17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?​

'The Passover' at that time was the Lamb, not the Seder, but the Lamb accompanied by unleavened bread and bitter herbs as well as four cups of wine.

18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.​

Here Yeshua states that he Will keep the Passover in that house.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat​

Here we have

1. It's the first day of the feast of unleavened bread
2. Yeshua telling them where to prepare the Passover where he will keep it.
3. They prepare the Passover
4. At Evening they sat down to it
5. They did EAT


After eating...............

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Now this 'hymn' was more than likely the Hallel which is still done today. This is a very ancient tradition, maybe dating back to Solomons time.

There is an obligation to recite the Hallel on every Yom Tov. It is recited on 18 days and one night.

8 days of Sukkot
8 days of Hanukkah
The festival day of Shavu'ot
The first festival day of Passover and it's night

Passover is the only 1 of these 18 days where it is sung at night.

So from the above verses in Matthew we see that it was both the First Day of Passover, it was evening when they sang the hymn or the Hallel.

Historical documentation of this can be found in Massechet Soferim 20:9

Shimon b. Yehotzadak taught: There are eighteen days and one night on which an individual completes the Hallel: the eight days of the Feast [of Sukkot], the eight days of Chanuka, the festival day of Shavu'ot, and the first festival day of Pesach, and its night.​

I'll follow up as soon as I can with the wine 'proofs' CF seems to be having difficulties with posting and I don't want to lose it.

 

[dqhall]

In the Gospel of John, Jesus was arrested during the day of preparation as Jewish days began at sunset and ended the following sunset. The Passover had not yet begun. No work was allowed on the Passover when the Seder meal was eaten. The arrest, trial at the high priest's house, trail at Pilate's headquarters and crucifixion would not have been done on a high Holy day as no work was allowed. This is why I think the Gospel of John is a more accurate account of the times of the crucifixion. The Talmud Pesachim describes the rules and regulations concerning Passover.

 

[Albion]

It was quite like Jesus to go with established customs and practices but give them a new meaning in the process. This appears to be one such event.

 

[AbbaLove]

Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

And all this time i thought you gave credence to Alex Tennent's research
that Yeshua and His disciples ate leavened bread on the 14th as the
Feast of Unleavened Bread was on the 15th (Leviticus 23:6)​

Drinking wine and singing isn't reserved just for a Pesach Seder Service
​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

That is no proof. There would be wine, a meal as well as hymns sung at a Seudah also. Also, if it were an actual Pesakh meal "seder", would they have gone out at night afterwards (I don't know if that was the tradition then or not)?????

 

[Lulav]

Due to Technical problems with the site I forgot to add the tag that this is a debate for MJ's only in the MJ forum. The tag has now been added and those participating who are not members of this forum are requested to edit their posts.

I'd also like to add the request to stick, on topic, and only post regarding either the hymn (singing) or the cups of wine.

Thank You very much!

 

[Lulav]

And all this time i thought you gave credence to Alex Tennent's research
that Yeshua and His disciples ate leavened bread on the 14th as the
Feast of Unleavened Bread was on the 15th (Leviticus 23:6)​

​

I don't know where you got that idea, I've never gotten around to reading his book although I think I was the one to introduce it to these forums. Alex found it and came on here for a bit. However currently what I believe is that

1. Passover is determined by the priests determining the new moon of the month of Aviv.
2. There were the priests of the Temple and there were Priests in the sect of Essenes, just like John, Yeshua's cousin was.
3. Determining the new moon for the first of the year can by off by 24 hours depending on what you use to determine it. The weather also plays a part as well. That being said I believe that in the Essene quarter that year the Essene priests had declared the new moon a day before those in the Temple. This could have been a matter of opinion or it could have been politically induced as the powers that be in the temple at that time were corrupt.
4. That was very fortuitous because then Yeshua could keep the Passover as it states in the gospels, keeping the commandment and explaining the fulfillment of this first of the feasts of salvation from Egypt. He kept it with his disciples, eating the required matzoh and bitter herbs, and doing all the things one was supposed to do on the eve of UL bread.

Drinking wine and singing isn't reserved just for a Pesach Seder Service

I gave evidence of this tradition above and how ONLY on Passover is the Hallel (not just singing) sung or recited at NIGHT.

 

[Lulav]

That is no proof. There would be wine, a meal as well as hymns sung at a Seudah also. Also, if it were an actual Pesakh meal "seder", would they have gone out at night afterwards (I don't know if that was the tradition then or not)?????

There is no commandment or tradition I am aware of that disallows that. Where they went from the Essene quarter was to the Garden of Gethsemane. The City itself was walled and most areas were probably considered an eruv which would allow them to travel through the city and out the gate closest to the garden which would be within the 'Sabbaths day walk'.

 

[AbbaLove]

"And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives."
(Matthew 26:30; Mark 14:26).​

17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

1. It's the first day of the feast of unleavened bread
2. Yeshua telling them where to prepare the Passover

where he will keep it.​

3. They prepare the Passover
4. At Evening they sat down to it
5. They did EAT

So, did the Sadducees and Pharisees agree to move the Feast of Unleavened Bread up a day to the 14th (1.) instead of the 15th (Leviticus 23:5-6)? Or for the sake of supporting your premise do we ignore the original timeline in Leviticus 23:6 ?

Can the will of the Sadducees and Pharisees intercede when in the best interests of the Israelites (although the Essenes might disagree)? That's what inquiring minds want to know.

For the sake of brevity maybe we should all AGREE with you and give this bread (i mean thread) a final REST before sunset this coming Friday

 

[gadar perets]

Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

The Singing of a 'Hymn'

Mark 14 and Matthew 26

17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?


'The Passover' at that time was the Lamb, not the Seder, but the Lamb accompanied by unleavened bread and bitter herbs as well as four cups of wine.

The "Passover" at that time was also the entire Feast of Unleavened Bread in keeping with Ezekiel 45:21;

Luke 22:1 – “Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.”
Ezekiel 45:21 - "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten."​

18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Here Yeshua states that he Will keep the Passover in that house.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat

Here we have

1. It's the first day of the feast of unleavened bread
2. Yeshua telling them where to prepare the Passover where he will keep it.
3. They prepare the Passover
4. At Evening they sat down to it
5. They did EAT

You neglected to quote Luke 22:7-8;

Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
​

Verse 7 means that Abib 14 had begun. Why would they begin preparing for Passover after the sun had set? To prepare the Passover, if that were the Passover meal, would mean to bring the lamb to the priests, have it killed, bleed it, clean it, carry it back to the room that they still needed to get, cook it for hours after they kindled a fire and carve it up. Not to mention the lines of people waiting to have their lambs killed after sunset (thousands of lambs)! Even if they did it by the Essene calendar and there were no lines to wait on, you don't wait until the sun sets to begin to prepare a Passover lamb. That is why YHWH commanded it to be killed hours before the sunset beginning Abib 15.

They went to prepare a place to eat the Passover at the appointed time (the first meal of Abib 15). They made it ready by securing it, setting places for everyone, making sure it was leaven free, etc. They did not prepare the Passover lamb itself. The lambs were not slain at the temple until the following day (John 18:28; John 19:14).

The Passover meal was a family gathering in which the women and children also participated. When Yeshua attended the Passover as a boy of twelve he accompanied his family (Luke 2:41,42). Yet, in Yeshua’s last supper the women and children are conspicuously absent. All that were present were Yeshua’s male disciples who were linked to him socially rather than through kinship. Where were the women who followed Yeshua throughout his ministry? Where is Peter’s wife or the wives of the other married disciples? They were not in attendance because that was not the Passover meal.

Of course, if Yeshua ate the real Passover lamb that night, then that means he did not die at the time the real Passover lambs were slain.

30

And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Now this 'hymn' was more than likely the Hallel which is still done today. This is a very ancient tradition, maybe dating back to Solomons time.

There is an obligation to recite the Hallel on every Yom Tov. It is recited on 18 days and one night.

8 days of Sukkot
8 days of Hanukkah
The festival day of Shavu'ot
The first festival day of Passover and it's night

Passover is the only 1 of these 18 days where it is sung at night.

So from the above verses in Matthew we see that it was both the First Day of Passover, it was evening when they sang the hymn or the Hallel.

Historical documentation of this can be found in Massechet Soferim 20:9

Shimon b. Yehotzadak taught: There are eighteen days and one night on which an individual completes the Hallel: the eight days of the Feast [of Sukkot], the eight days of Chanuka, the festival day of Shavu'ot, and the first festival day of Pesach, and its night.​

You are building a doctrinal belief based on reading the Hallel into the text. That is how false teachings arise.

 

[AbbaLove]

Of course, if Yeshua ate the real Passover lamb that night, then that means he did not die at the time the real Passover lambs were slain.

We really should try to abide by her request and not get into specifics​

I'd also like to add the request to stick, on topic, and only post regarding either the hymn (singing) or the cups of wine.

Thank You very much!

Singing is not my forte, but a little wine is good for what ails ya
do you really think Yeshua gave His Disciples 4 cups
​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Passover meal was a family gathering in which the women and children also participated. When Yeshua attended the Passover as a boy of twelve he accompanied his family (Luke 2:41,42). Yet, in Yeshua’s last supper the women and children are conspicuously absent. All that were present were Yeshua’s male disciples who were linked to him socially rather than through kinship. Where were the women who followed Yeshua throughout his ministry? Where is Peter’s wife or the wives of the other married disciples? They were not in attendance because that was not the Passover meal.

Which is another reason why I say it was a Seudah HaMafsekhet.

 

[gadar perets]

​

We really should try to abide by her request and not get into specifics
​

My post was right on target as per her request. Lulav says it was the Hallel because it was Passover. So I showed her it was not Passover which then discredits reading the Hallel into Matthew 26:30.

 

[Lulav]

If anyone has historical evidence that Singing of the Hallel was done on any other night than Passover (14th going into the 15th) then please present it.

It seems no one wants to give credence to the poignant data I presented, namely

Historical documentation of this can be found in Massechet Soferim 20:9

Shimon b. Yehotzadak taught: There are eighteen days and one night on which an individual completes the Hallel: the eight days of the Feast [of Sukkot], the eight days of Chanuka, the festival day of Shavu'ot, and the first festival day of Pesach, and its night.

 

[Lulav]

I'm not sure why the flippant attitude but I will answer your questions even though you chose to ignore what I repeated about the night of Passover singing the Hallel.

"And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives."
(Matthew 26:30; Mark 14:26).​

​

​

So, did the Sadducees and Pharisees agree to move the Feast of Unleavened Bread up a day to the 14th (1.) instead of the 15th (Leviticus 23:5-6)? Or for the sake of supporting your premise do we ignore the original timeline in Leviticus 23:6 ?

This makes no sense to me. In case you missed it.

Lulav said Above in Post #7----

This is what I currently believe
1. Passover is determined by the priests determining the new moon of the month of Aviv.
2. There were the priests of the Temple and there were Priests in the sect of Essene's, just like John, Yeshua's cousin was.
3. Determining the new moon for the first of the year can by off by 24 hours depending on what you use to determine it. The weather also plays a part as well. That being said I believe that in the Essene quarter that year the Essene priests had declared the new moon a day before those in the Temple. This could have been a matter of opinion or it could have been politically induced as the powers that be in the temple at that time were corrupt.
4. That was very fortuitous because then Yeshua could keep the Passover as it states in the gospels, keeping the commandment and explaining the fulfillment of this first of the feasts of salvation from Egypt. He kept it with his disciples, eating the required matzoh and bitter herbs, and doing all the things one was supposed to do on the eve of UL bread.
------


I think that explains it quite well if you still have questions on it I'll be happy to post it in a simpler way.

Can the will of the Sadducees and Pharisees intercede when in the best interests of the Israelites (although the Essenes might disagree)? That's what inquiring minds want to know.

Again, Not understanding what you are trying to say. What 'will' are you talking about?

For the sake of brevity maybe we should all AGREE with you and give this bread (i mean thread) a final REST before sunset this coming Friday

Not sure what the reference to tomorrow is about except it being the beginning of the second Weekly Sabbath of unleavened bread? Are you suggesting that we need to stop talking about the greatest event that ever took place on earth? I will strongly have to agree to disagree with that and if this subject is worn out for you I would suggest not continuing to post to it and find something less boring for you to share your opinion on.

 

[CherubRam]

Wine and Singing the proof that the Last Supper was the Passover

The Singing of a 'Hymn'

Mark 14 and Matthew 26

17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?​

'The Passover' at that time was the Lamb, not the Seder, but the Lamb accompanied by unleavened bread and bitter herbs as well as four cups of wine.

18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.​

Here Yeshua states that he Will keep the Passover in that house.

19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
21 And as they did eat​

Here we have

1. It's the first day of the feast of unleavened bread
2. Yeshua telling them where to prepare the Passover where he will keep it.
3. They prepare the Passover
4. At Evening they sat down to it
5. They did EAT


After eating...............

30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Now this 'hymn' was more than likely the Hallel which is still done today. This is a very ancient tradition, maybe dating back to Solomons time.

There is an obligation to recite the Hallel on every Yom Tov. It is recited on 18 days and one night.

8 days of Sukkot
8 days of Hanukkah
The festival day of Shavu'ot
The first festival day of Passover and it's night

Passover is the only 1 of these 18 days where it is sung at night.

So from the above verses in Matthew we see that it was both the First Day of Passover, it was evening when they sang the hymn or the Hallel.

Historical documentation of this can be found in Massechet Soferim 20:9

Shimon b. Yehotzadak taught: There are eighteen days and one night on which an individual completes the Hallel: the eight days of the Feast [of Sukkot], the eight days of Chanuka, the festival day of Shavu'ot, and the first festival day of Pesach, and its night.​

I'll follow up as soon as I can with the wine 'proofs' CF seems to be having difficulties with posting and I don't want to lose it.

The original text reads:
"With you I am holding the Passover with my disciples."

Even so, Christ was arrested and hanged before the Passover began.

 

[CherubRam]

Due to Technical problems with the site I forgot to add the tag that this is a debate for MJ's only in the MJ forum. The tag has now been added and those participating who are not members of this forum are requested to edit their posts.

I'd also like to add the request to stick, on topic, and only post regarding either the hymn (singing) or the cups of wine.

Thank You very much!

Wine and song is proof of what? Lol

On topic is posting about wine and song. Lol. OK!

I'm going to bail out of this one. Have a nice day!

 

[gadar perets]

If anyone has historical evidence that Singing of the Hallel was done on any other night than Passover (14th going into the 15th) then please present it.

It seems no one wants to give credence to the poignant data I presented, namely

Historical documentation of this can be found in Massechet Soferim 20:9

Shimon b. Yehotzadak taught: There are eighteen days and one night on which an individual completes the Hallel: the eight days of the Feast [of Sukkot], the eight days of Chanuka, the festival day of Shavu'ot, and the first festival day of Pesach, and its night.

The Greek word for "hymn" in Matthew 26:30 is "humneo". You are assuming it refers to a psalm, in particular the Hallel. Then you make a leap to declare it was Passover because the Jews only sang the Hallel on that one night.

Consider the next two verses;

Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Messiah dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
​

The Greek word for "hymn" is "humnos" and the Greek word for psalms is "psalmos". Paul makes a distinction between the two. Had the Gospel writers meant to convey to readers that Yeshua and his disciples sang the Hallel (a psalm), the Greek would have used "psalmo", not "humneo".

So, while you are absolutely correct that the Hallel was not sung on other nights and that it was sung on Passover, you have erred by assuming the "hymn" was the Hallel and that the night they sung it was Passover.

 

[AbbaLove]

Opps! deleted​

 

[AbbaLove]

My post was right on target as per her request. Lulav says it was the Hallel because it was Passover. So I showed her it was not Passover which then discredits reading the Hallel into Matthew 26:30.

I know we've been over this before, but apparently Lulav believes Luke 22:14-16 is a reliable translation by which she believes the "Last Supper" has some assemblance to a Passover Seder during the 2nd Temple period. Do you really discount that as a real possibility as well as singing part of the Hallel, if not all of Psalms 113-118?