Will we sin when we get to heaven?

[redleghunter]

I know the Bible quite well. The reason I'm atheist is because I decided to read it cover to cover.

Then why was information related to deliverance, redemption and conforming alien to your OP?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

That doesn't mean He can make a square circle.

You are saying he is maximally powerful. Such a being is insufficient to cause the universe to begin to exist, as it is logically absurd to effect nothing and cause something to exist.

Once we have our sins paid in full we are covered by Jesus and are spiritual beings and our physical bodies that carried our sin nature are no longer with us. Angels and Satan rebelled and those who did were thrown out of heaven, those that didn't sin chose not to reject God and their decision after being made stopped there as they do not reproduce. The angels and Satan had one shot as well and rejected it and will never be allowed in heaven.

Great, so now we are caught up with the beginning of the actual flow chart provided in the OP. Can you address it now? In other words, why were the angels able to sin in heaven and yet we won't be able to? redleghunter asked me if the angels got a raw deal. Do you think so?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The Bible is not about good and bad angels.

Well, this thread is.

They are created beings not mentioned in God's plan of deliverance.

I don't care. They were exiled from heaven, so it is a relevant issue.

Are you implying the fallen angels got a raw deal?

Yes.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Then why was information related to deliverance, redemption and conforming alien to your OP?

I've made other threads about that. Please stick to the topic at hand. If you want to talk about those things, you can comment on my thread "Is God above the law or not?"

 

[civilwarbuff]

You are not answering my question about the angels.

So, you are including the angels in the "We" part of your question even though humans and angels are never considered equivalent? If true, you should have specified that. Here I have been operating on the assumption "We" meant only humans.....you know, part of the plan of salvation?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Well, this thread is.



I don't care. They were exiled from heaven, so it is a relevant issue.



Yes.

Goalposts have changed......

 

[SnowyMacie]

The answer is no we won't because we won't want to sin/won't be capable.

The problem with that flow chart shows a fundamental, but incredibly common misunderstanding of the Christian idea of salvation, that it is simply a one time event instead of a process. Before I get into the details of that, let's start at the beginning: In the beginning God the universe, the Earth, and eventually mankind. Mankind chose to sin and separated himself from God. God then instituted the Covenant, the law, and then Christ. The sacrifice of Christ, as he was a perfect man, and God himself taking on the punishment of our sins, it was sufficient for mankind to be redeemed to God, if man chooses to accept. Once you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are "saved" and become a new creation in Christ. However, these new creations are improved over even over the unfallen man of Adam (which only had the breath of life) as the spirit of God himself, the Holy Spirit literally dwells inside of them. Now, because we are still living in this fallen world and have our fallen human nature, we are going to sin, but once Christ comes back and restores creation so that Heaven and Earth become one, sin and evil will be no more, we won't be able to sin, nor really want to sin because we will have reached our perfection within Christ.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The answer is no we won't because we won't want to sin/won't be capable.

The problem with that flow chart shows a fundamental, but incredibly common misunderstanding of the Christian idea of salvation, that it is simply a one time event instead of a process. Before I get into the details of that, let's start at the beginning: In the beginning God the universe, the Earth, and eventually mankind. Mankind chose to sin and separated himself from God. God then instituted the Covenant, the law, and then Christ. The sacrifice of Christ, as he was a perfect man, and God himself taking on the punishment of our sins, it was sufficient for mankind to be redeemed to God, if man chooses to accept. Once you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are "saved" and become a new creation in Christ. However, these new creations are improved over even over the unfallen man of Adam (which only had the breath of life) as the spirit of God himself, the Holy Spirit literally dwells inside of them. Now, because we are still living in this fallen world and have our fallen human nature, we are going to sin, but once Christ comes back and restores creation so that Heaven and Earth become one, sin and evil will be no more, we won't be able to sin, nor really want to sin because we will have reached our perfection within Christ.

The angels were created to be sinless, and yet some of them still chose to sin. Therefore, when we enter heaven as sinless entities it is a valid question to ask whether or not we will sin.

You and everyone here seem to think that we will not sin, so I will work with that assumption going forward.

Now when I ask, "Why didn't God just make us to be sinless to begin with, since that state of existence is presumably preferable for all parties concerned over the state of existence now?" one person here (and you seem to be agreeing - correct me if I'm wrong) answered by saying that God is simply incapable of doing this.

So then the question becomes this: why will we be incapable of sin upon entering heaven while the angels will still be able to? Why do the angels get no chance at a salvation plan? Why do they have free will and an eternity to wrestle with it and yet one mistake gets them damned? Is that fair at all? Does God not care about fairness at all? Isn't fairness, or the pursuit thereof, the fundamental cornerstone of morality?

 

[SnowyMacie]

Now when I ask, "Why didn't God just make us to be sinless to begin with, since that state of existence is presumably preferable for all parties concerned over the state of existence now?" one person here (and you seem to be agreeing - correct me if I'm wrong) answered by saying that God is simply incapable of doing this.

Mankind was originally created sinless as well, however, the temptation was for a state preferable to remaining in sinless communion with God, being your own God, this why humility and selflessness is a big theme in the teachings of Jesus and Paul.

So then the question becomes this: why will we be incapable of sin upon entering heaven while the angels will still be able to? Why do the angels get no chance at a salvation plan? Why do they have free will and an eternity to wrestle with it and yet one mistake gets them damned? Is that fair at all? Does God not care about fairness at all? Isn't fairness, or the pursuit thereof, the fundamental cornerstone of morality?

I guess we're also assuming in this thread that the post-exile understand of Satan as a fallen angel at opposition with God is the correct one, and not the pre-exile understand of Satan as God's, for lack of a better term, District Attorney? Since we are, Satan's rebellion of God was completely different than the sin of Adam because angels are immortal, spiritual beings of a completely different purpose, role, and etc. When Satan, along with 1/3 of the angels, those chose were the only ones effected, just like damned men choose their sin over God. Another important factor, how do you know with 100% certainty there is no plan for fallen angels to be redeemed? Why would scripture even mention that as it as no relevancy to the relationship between God and man because that's an issue between God and his angels.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, this thread is.



I don't care. They were exiled from heaven, so it is a relevant issue.



Yes.

Not relevant to whether or not regenerated and resurrected humans sin.

The state of angels is not relevant to the message of the Bible.

 

[redleghunter]

I've made other threads about that. Please stick to the topic at hand. If you want to talk about those things, you can comment on my thread "Is God above the law or not?"

However the deliverance of mankind is central to your OP.

 

[redleghunter]

The angels were created to be sinless, and yet some of them still chose to sin. Therefore, when we enter heaven as sinless entities it is a valid question to ask whether or not we will sin.

You and everyone here seem to think that we will not sin, so I will work with that assumption going forward.

Now when I ask, "Why didn't God just make us to be sinless to begin with, since that state of existence is presumably preferable for all parties concerned over the state of existence now?" one person here (and you seem to be agreeing - correct me if I'm wrong) answered by saying that God is simply incapable of doing this.

So then the question becomes this: why will we be incapable of sin upon entering heaven while the angels will still be able to? Why do the angels get no chance at a salvation plan? Why do they have free will and an eternity to wrestle with it and yet one mistake gets them damned? Is that fair at all? Does God not care about fairness at all? Isn't fairness, or the pursuit thereof, the fundamental cornerstone of morality?

Where is it stated angels were made in the image of God? There was only one creation, mankind made in the Image of God.

Your presumptive conclusion that God was incapable of creating angels and mankind without free will is yet another false dichotomy.

 

[Hammster]

The angels were created to be sinless, and yet some of them still chose to sin. Therefore, when we enter heaven as sinless entities it is a valid question to ask whether or not we will sin.

You and everyone here seem to think that we will not sin, so I will work with that assumption going forward.

Now when I ask, "Why didn't God just make us to be sinless to begin with, since that state of existence is presumably preferable for all parties concerned over the state of existence now?" one person here (and you seem to be agreeing - correct me if I'm wrong) answered by saying that God is simply incapable of doing this.

So then the question becomes this: why will we be incapable of sin upon entering heaven while the angels will still be able to? Why do the angels get no chance at a salvation plan? Why do they have free will and an eternity to wrestle with it and yet one mistake gets them damned? Is that fair at all? Does God not care about fairness at all? Isn't fairness, or the pursuit thereof, the fundamental cornerstone of morality?

Concerning angels, the scripture is mostly silent. We can determine what happened in a general sense, but not why. As to the fate of the redeemed and unreformed humans, the bible is clear. So trying to instigate a discussion on something that is going to be speculation at best will not be beneficial.

 

[Sapiens]

We were created sinless in the beginning

 

[cloudyday2]

The answer is no we won't because we won't want to sin/won't be capable.

The problem with that flow chart shows a fundamental, but incredibly common misunderstanding of the Christian idea of salvation, that it is simply a one time event instead of a process. Before I get into the details of that, let's start at the beginning: In the beginning God the universe, the Earth, and eventually mankind. Mankind chose to sin and separated himself from God. God then instituted the Covenant, the law, and then Christ. The sacrifice of Christ, as he was a perfect man, and God himself taking on the punishment of our sins, it was sufficient for mankind to be redeemed to God, if man chooses to accept. Once you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are "saved" and become a new creation in Christ. However, these new creations are improved over even over the unfallen man of Adam (which only had the breath of life) as the spirit of God himself, the Holy Spirit literally dwells inside of them. Now, because we are still living in this fallen world and have our fallen human nature, we are going to sin, but once Christ comes back and restores creation so that Heaven and Earth become one, sin and evil will be no more, we won't be able to sin, nor really want to sin because we will have reached our perfection within Christ.

I like your post, @TX_Matt , but an obvious question is what is different about the state of Adam in paradise versus the state of resurrected humans in paradise? Can resurrected humans make Adam's mistake?

I'm thinking that Adam was innocent and somewhat ignorant whereas a resurrected human would have gone through a process of sin and repentance before entering paradise?

 

[Hammster]

I like your post, @TX_Matt , but an obvious question is what is different about the state of Adam in paradise versus the state of resurrected humans in paradise? Can resurrected humans make Adam's mistake?

I'm thinking that Adam was innocent and somewhat ignorant whereas a resurrected human would have gone through a process of sin and repentance before entering paradise?

My view/understanding is this. Adam was created good in the sense that he was without sin. But that doesn't mean he had inherent righteousness. Christ has inherent righteousness because it's His nature. So His righteousness is imputed to those who are believing. We are credited with His righteousness. In heaven, we are told we will be like Him. We will go from having His righteousness credited to us, to actually being righteous. So we will not sin in heaven because it will not be in our nature.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You are saying he is maximally powerful. Such a being is insufficient to cause the universe to begin to exist, as it is logically absurd to effect nothing and cause something to exist.

Yes, He is the most powerful force there is. He is also the root of logic. He can not change His logical nature which is what you are supposing. The only nature that is sinless is God's by nature, by structure and by being. God is not a created Being and as such everything ...everything else is created. All living things, the universe itself and even the spiritual world occupants of angels, Cherubim, Seraphim and even Satan. None of these living beings besides God were created sinless because sinless creation is like a square circle. Logically impossible. There is no possible world that physical beings can be created without sin. Being sinless is being perfection and the only perfect Being is God. No physical being can be perfection. All created must be shed of its sin nature and the one and only way is through acceptance of salvation through Christ Jesus.





Great, so now we are caught up with the beginning of the actual flow chart provided in the OP. Can you address it now? In other words, why were the angels able to sin in heaven and yet we won't be able to? redleghunter asked me if the angels got a raw deal. Do you think so?[/QUOTE]All created beings have to choose to be covered by salvation or forever be separated from God and the new world set up for eternity. The angels in heaven today will never sin and the reason is they chose not to rebel against God. They accepted God. Each one of us has to do the same thing before being covered by God in salvation. Once that is done and in death our physical nature is gone (the body) we will no longer have our sin nature and are covered by God by our choice. All living beings have to make a choice. God will not force people to worship Him because that is not true worship.

 

[Oncedeceived]

My view/understanding is this. Adam was created good in the sense that he was without sin. But that doesn't mean he had inherent righteousness. Christ has inherent righteousness because it's His nature. So His righteousness is imputed to those who are believing. We are credited with His righteousness. In heaven, we are told we will be like Him. We will go from having His righteousness credited to us, to actually being righteous. So we will not sin in heaven because it will not be in our nature.

I believe if you don't mind me butting in here, is that Adam was created and had not sinned but was not sinless. He wasn't created with a sinless nature, if so he would have been perfect which was impossible but he was good because he had not sinned against God. When He rejected what God said about eating of the tree, the sin nature of man was actualized. Adam and Eve had a real choice and if they had actually chosen to obey God the world might have taken a different path. God knowing that they in any possible world would chose to do what they did, created a plan where by all living men and women would continue to have to chose but if they chose God will live eternally with Him. Each being God creates has the choice, the real choice to decide their eternal place, but God knows that in any possible world what that choice will be. This world is the best possible world for the most possible souls to reside with Him for an eternity.

 

[Hammster]

I believe if you don't mind me butting in here, is that Adam was created and had not sinned but was not sinless. He wasn't created with a sinless nature, if so he would have been perfect which was impossible but he was good because he had not sinned against God. When He rejected what God said about eating of the tree, the sin nature of man was actualized. Adam and Eve had a real choice and if they had actually chosen to obey God the world might have taken a different path. God knowing that they in any possible world would chose to do what they did, created a plan where by all living men and women would continue to have to chose but if they chose God will live eternally with Him. Each being God creates has the choice, the real choice to decide their eternal place, but God knows that in any possible world what that choice will be. This world is the best possible world for the most possible souls to reside with Him for an eternity.

That's too Molenistic for me. But I don't want to derail the thread.

 

[Moral Orel]

None of these living beings besides God were created sinless because sinless creation is like a square circle. Logically impossible.

Why? What is logically incongruent between "sinless" and "created"? It sounds more like you're saying God can't make a blue circle, because "blue" and "circular" have nothing to do with each other.

God exists and is sinless. Other things can exist and be sinless.