Will we sin when we get to heaven?

[Oncedeceived]

Why? What is logically incongruent between "sinless" and "created"? It sounds more like you're saying God can't make a blue circle, because "blue" and "circular" have nothing to do with each other.

God exists and is sinless. Other things can exist and be sinless.

No, it is exactly like saying God can't make a square circle.

 

[Moral Orel]

No, it is exactly like saying God can't make a square circle.

Why? What is logically incongruent between "sinless" and "created"?

 

[SnowyMacie]

Well I'm not entirely sure you answered my questions.

When we get to heaven we will be comparable to angelic beings at least in some respect. I'm not sure how we will be any different at all. You didn't address this comparison whatsoever.

I did address the comparison. I'll reword it "angels and human are completely different beings and have different eternal plans and roles. The Bible only talks about angels in what humans need to know about them. Any conversation about redemption for fallen angels is outside the realm of human knowledge because it's entirely irrelevant for us to know.

 

[toLiJC]

this is a very appropriate question

in heaven there is actually no free will and personal choice for the soul to choose between good and evil, but there is such a possibility for the soul only if it is in this world under sin, yet this doesn't mean that the soul is sinful from birth, nor does it necessarily become sinful after its birth, but this is a matter of fate, of course, the human under sin(whoever he or she may be) has the chance to be and become better and even fully righteous in principle, but when God created the human, He did not made him/her sinful, nor did He ever create sin or sinful nature

Blessings

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I did address the comparison. I'll reword it "angels and human are completely different beings and have different eternal plans and roles. The Bible only talks about angels in what humans need to know about them. Any conversation about redemption for fallen angels is outside the realm of human knowledge because it's entirely irrelevant for us to know.

Irrelevant? So the fact that heaven is not an eternal abode in that banishment is a known possibility is of absolutely no concern to you?

The essential characteristic of a spirit in heaven is that they are without sin. Sin cannot be in the presence of God... except in Job chapter 1, apparently. So in essential terms you will be no different from an angel, and I can prove it:

A spirit in heaven will be sinless and will worship God for all eternity. These are the primary descriptions of such a being and in fact the only things we know for sure.

Now, is this spirit I'm describing an angel or a former human? How can you tell and what else can you even posit that a spirit might actually do in heaven?

1. We cannot distinguish between angelic beings and former humans in heaven.
2. Angelic beings can be banished from heaven.
3. ???
4. Former humans cannot be banished from heaven.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

this is a very appropriate question

in heaven there is actually no free will and personal choice for the soul to choose between good and evil, but there is such a possibility for the soul only if it is in this world under sin, yet this doesn't mean that the soul is sinful from birth, nor does it necessarily become sinful after its birth, but this is a matter of fate, of course, the human under sin(whoever he or she may be) has the chance to be and become better and even fully righteous in principle, but when God created the human, He did not made him/her sinful, nor did He ever create sin or sinful nature

Blessings

Thank you, but you didn't explain why God didn't make us sinless to begin with. Also, your answer contradicts Oncedeceived's notion of free will worship.

 

[Hammster]

this is a very appropriate question

in heaven there is actually no free will and personal choice for the soul to choose between good and evil, but there is such a possibility for the soul only if it is in this world under sin, yet this doesn't mean that the soul is sinful from birth, nor does it necessarily become sinful after its birth, but this is a matter of fate, of course, the human under sin(whoever he or she may be) has the chance to be and become better and even fully righteous in principle, but when God created the human, He did not made him/her sinful, nor did He ever create sin or sinful nature

Blessings

It's a false premise to say the free will means you should be free to sin. God has autonomous free will, and cannot sin. We will be like Christ and have the freedom (finally) to not sin.

 

[toLiJC]

Thank you, but you didn't explain why God didn't make us sinless to begin with. Also, your answer contradicts Oncedeceived's notion of free will worship.

why should God make us evil/unrighteous?!

actually the human had no free will to sin, but she/he was mentally influenced by the "darkness" - it just had an influence upon their minds, and they thus turned out to (start to) think perversely and to make wrong choice for a long enough time

Blessings

 

[SnowyMacie]

Irrelevant? So the fact that heaven is not an eternal abode in that banishment is a known possibility is of absolutely no concern to you?

The eternal fate of angels? No, it is not relevant.

The essential characteristic of a spirit in heaven is that they are without sin. Sin cannot be in the presence of God... except in Job chapter 1, apparently.

Job 1 reflects the pre-exile understanding of Satan as basically the district attorney of God.

So in essential terms you will be no different from an angel, and I can prove it:

A spirit in heaven will be sinless and will worship God for all eternity. These are the primary descriptions of such a being and in fact the only things we know for sure.

Now, is this spirit I'm describing an angel or a former human? How can you tell and what else can you even posit that a spirit might actually do in heaven?

You are describing a common misunderstanding of the nature of Heaven and he next word, and also describing angels. We will not be spirits forever, but will be given new bodies that match our new creation, much like Christ's body after he was resurrected (1 Corinthians 15). It was a physical body, but also something different than a normal human body. Futhermore, the enternal fate of humans is not to join with the angels in the invisible and heavenly worship chorus, but to do essentially do what we've always loved doing on the restored Earth (Isaiah 66, Revelation 21-22).

1. We cannot distinguish between angelic beings and former humans in heaven.
2. Angelic beings can be banished from heaven.
3. ???
4. Former humans cannot be banished from heaven.

3. The enteral fate of humans is not to worship God in Heaven forever, but to live and enjoy Heaven on Earth, and in turn, everything we do will glorify and worship God.

 

[cloudyday2]

You are describing a common misunderstanding of the nature of Heaven and he next word, and also describing angels. We will not be spirits forever, but will be given new bodies that match our new creation, much like Christ's body after he was resurrected (1 Corinthians 15). It was a physical body, but also something different than a normal human body. Futhermore, the enternal fate of humans is not to join with the angels in the invisible and heavenly worship chorus, but to do essentially do what we've always loved doing on the restored Earth (Isaiah 66, Revelation 21-22).

How about Mark 12:25 and Matthew 22:30? Jesus seems to be saying that marriage will not be a feature of life after resurrection and that resurrected humans will be like the angels. For many humans, marriage and raising children is the center of their lives.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

why should God make us evil/unrighteous?!

actually the human had no free will to sin, but she/he was mentally influenced by the "darkness" - it just had an influence upon their minds, and they thus turned out to (start to) think perversely and to make wrong choice for a long enough time

Blessings

I cannot discern any meaning from that.

 

[toLiJC]

I cannot discern any meaning from that.

it can be only spiritually discerned

1 Corinthians 2:14 "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Blessings

 

[Nihilist Virus]

it can be only spiritually discerned

1 Corinthians 2:14 "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Blessings

How does that help me understand? Also, what do you mean by "spiritual"? I have a vague notion of what a spirit is, but no notion of what spiritual is.

 

[civilwarbuff]

How does that help me understand? Also, what do you mean by "spiritual"? I have a vague notion of what a spirit is, but no notion of what spiritual is.

It is called the Holy Spirit....It is He who gives spiritual discernment.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The eternal fate of angels? No, it is not relevant.

My argument can be whatever I want it to be. Look at the OP again, please. Angelic beings are relevant to the discussion.

Job 1 reflects the pre-exile understanding of Satan as basically the district attorney of God.

I find this to be nonsensical if we assume that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan, as those events precede the events of Job (presumably by centuries).

You are describing a common misunderstanding of the nature of Heaven and he next word, and also describing angels. We will not be spirits forever, but will be given new bodies that match our new creation, much like Christ's body after he was resurrected (1 Corinthians 15). It was a physical body, but also something different than a normal human body.

So what you are saying is that there are physical bodies that can walk through walls, teleport, and fly? Because the risen Jesus apparently did all those things.

Futhermore, the enternal fate of humans is not to join with the angels in the invisible and heavenly worship chorus, but to do essentially do what we've always loved doing on the restored Earth (Isaiah 66, Revelation 21-22).



3. The enteral fate of humans is not to worship God in Heaven forever, but to live and enjoy Heaven on Earth, and in turn, everything we do will glorify and worship God.

I am baffled. You say our fate is not to join with the angels in the invisible and heavenly worship chorus, but that also we will be glorifying and worshiping God in everything we do. So are we or aren't we going to worship God forever? Are you saying that the angelic beings forming a chorus is an essential difference between them and us? Also, are you saying that they will remain invisible to us even after we are in heaven?

 

[civilwarbuff]

How about you stop telling me what my argument actually is? Because my argument can be whatever I want it to be. Look at the OP again, please. Angelic beings are relevant to the discussion.

The angels are relevant because you say so.....always a winning argument.......

 

[toLiJC]

How does that help me understand? Also, what do you mean by "spiritual"? I have a vague notion of what a spirit is, but no notion of what spiritual is.

usually, only people that exercise/practice faith right enough can understand the scripture properly, because faith must be only in the One Who really is the true God, there must be no misbeliefs therein, i.e. wrong spiritual persuasions and wrong spiritual practices, etc.

Blessings

 

[Nihilist Virus]

usually, only people that exercise/practice faith right enough can understand the scripture properly, because faith must be only in the One Who really is the true God, there must be no misbeliefs therein, i.e. wrong spiritual persuasions and wrong spiritual practices, etc.

Blessings

If one already has so much faith, why do they need doctrine?

 

[SnowyMacie]

I find this to be nonsensical if we assume that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was Satan, as those events precede the events of Job (presumably by centuries).

Not necessarily. The serpent in the Garden was testing Eve to see if she would in fact take the fruit, and she did. Furthermore, Eden was also a place that God could walk in, and a place that humanity couldn't return after sin entered the world, so if Satan was sinful, he couldn't have been there.

So what you are saying is that there are physical bodies that can walk through walls, teleport, and fly? Because the risen Jesus apparently did all those things.

Yes and no, the body of the risen Christ was indeed physical, but yet more than physical. That was one of the big deals about the resurrection, it was a physical body and yet more than a physical body.

I am baffled. You say our fate is not to join with the angels in the invisible and heavenly worship chorus, but that also we will be glorifying and worshiping God in everything we do. So are we or aren't we going to worship God forever? Are you saying that the angelic beings forming a chorus is an essential difference between them and us? Also, are you saying that they will remain invisible to us even after we are in heaven?

Yes. We will worship God forever, however, it is not going to be one eternal worship service like we think of it, we will worship God though all that we do. Yes, according to Revelation, there are some angelic beings that form an eternal chorus, there are others that serve as messengers, other protect, etc. No, I do not think they will be invisible to us after the second coming.[/QUOTE]

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Not necessarily. The serpent in the Garden was testing Eve to see if she would in fact take the fruit, and she did. Furthermore, Eden was also a place that God could walk in, and a place that humanity couldn't return after sin entered the world, so if Satan was sinful, he couldn't have been there.

You make it sound like Satan's actions were sanctioned by God. If so, why was Satan punished? If not, how was Satan not sinful? I do not think your position is coherent.

Yes and no, the body of the risen Christ was indeed physical, but yet more than physical. That was one of the big deals about the resurrection, it was a physical body and yet more than a physical body.

Are you aware of the term "fan fiction"?

Yes. We will worship God forever, however, it is not going to be one eternal worship service like we think of it, we will worship God though all that we do. Yes, according to Revelation, there are some angelic beings that form an eternal chorus, there are others that serve as messengers, other protect, etc. No, I do not think they will be invisible to us after the second coming.

Again, sounds like fan fiction. What I did was list the things we know the Bible claims. You're expanding upon this and making inferences to paint a picture that you believe is implied by the Bible.