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Will we sin when we get to heaven?

Will we sin when we get to heaven?


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SnowyMacie

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You make it sound like Satan's actions were sanctioned by God. If so, why was Satan punished? If not, how was Satan not sinful? I do not think your position is coherent.

You are assuming a post-exilic understanding of Satan and a literal interpretation of the passage, I am not.


Are you aware of the term "fan fiction"?

Yes, I am. However, the gospels are written as biographies. The term, as civilwar points out below is glorified body.



Again, sounds like fan fiction. What I did was list the things we know the Bible claims. You're expanding upon this and making inferences to paint a picture that you believe is implied by the Bible.

I'm doing nothing more than interpretating the Bible the way that it has for the majority of Christian history, and they way the majority and leading theologians interpret it. The passages about the second coming and what will happen after are designed to paint a picture, that's the point.
 
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toLiJC

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If one already has so much faith, why do they need doctrine?

the doctrine of faith is a set of principles of faith, and when it comes to exercising/practicing faith, the Holy doctrine of faith is really important, because there must be no spiritual iniquity/wickedness, and the worshipers can achieve brightest heights of heaven by following it, that is why it is recorded in the form of Scripture(Bible)

Blessings
 
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You are assuming a post-exilic understanding of Satan and a literal interpretation of the passage, I am not.

I'm not assuming anything. I explained my reasoning and asked you a question, which you ignored. Therefore you are the one making baseless assumptions. Once again,

You make it sound like Satan's actions were sanctioned by God. If so, why was Satan punished? If not, how was Satan not sinful? I do not think your position is coherent.

Yes, I am. However, the gospels are written as biographies. The term, as civilwar points out below is glorified body.

If it is not explained in Scripture what a glorified body is, or if you cannot at the very least make logical inferences from scattered information, then your claims about what entails such a body is indeed fan fiction. You've done literally nothing to disprove my claim that angelic beings and former humans will be more or less indistinguishable. And if you recall, such a proposition is catastrophic to your salvation because angelic beings are known to have been exiled from heaven.

I'm doing nothing more than interpretating the Bible the way that it has for the majority of Christian history, and they way the majority and leading theologians interpret it. The passages about the second coming and what will happen after are designed to paint a picture, that's the point.

Again, if your claims don't come from Scripture or if they aren't at the very least logically inferred, then your claims are fan fiction. You cannot whimsically dismiss claims from scientists or historians while at the same time expecting me to accept the claims of theologians.
 
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Oncedeceived

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You sound like Matt Slick. Do you work for CARM or something? You sound like you're initiating the Transcendental Argument for the Existence of God.
Nope, I don't work for anyone but the argument is a very good one. ;)

Regardless, I've remarked on your signature once before and explained to you the severe problem with what you're proposing. The mathematician Gödel proved his Incompleteness Theorem, so if God created logic and mathematics, why is it "incomplete"?

Here's my watered down version of the theorem:

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We discover mathematics and the laws of logic. That this "incompleteness" of everything is no argument against either logic nor mathematics being rooted in God. In fact, it can be argued that this can actually provide support for God.



Saying that God is limited by logic necessarily revokes his omniscience because there are propositions in any consistent, nontrivial axiomatic system which are necessarily either true or false but which cannot be decided either way.
Who said God is limited by logic, not I. Logic is a part of God's nature. God knows all things so they can be decided by God.
It sounds like you're saying we will retain our sinful nature in heaven. Can you follow that half of the flowchart for me?
No, we don't retain our sinful nature in heaven. We continue to have free will but having the new nature of Christ we will not sin. We could not have been created in that way because we can't be instantly created with a sinless nature. Only God is sinless and we can't be created sinless as we are not gods nor can we be God. We have to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit to be spiritually born and be removed from our physical bodies to be free from our sin nature.




You are using the bizarre language of Paul here and this has nothing to do with what Jesus ever said. Jesus spoke in parables but the things he said were simple things comprehensible by anyone. Please explain this weird Pauline doctrine in laymen's terms for me.
You don't remember Him saying that He is the only way to the father and there is no other way? Do you not remember that those not covered by the blood of Christ one will be separated from God for an eternity?



Choice is not a one-time thing like that. If you have a bubble gum addiction, and you choose not to chew it, five minutes later you might decide to chew some. So your answer is nonsensical to me.
It was for the angels. That is what we were talking about. Angels had one shot, accept God or rebel. Those that rebel are outcasts for an eternity.



He won't force us to worship because that is not true worship? How is threatening us all with hellfire not forcing us to worship him? Or do you make a distinction between withholding free will in order to not force worship and allowing the existence of free will but imposing a horrific threat in order to coax obedience? If you adore God so much that this threat is meaningless to you because you'd worship him without the threat, why don't you make a much more genuine effort to actually live by the words of Christ? Luke 12:33.
There are varying degrees of consequence for the sins one commits during life. God will provide justice for those who one has sinned against, and for those sins that were against God.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Why? What is logically incongruent between "sinless" and "created"? It sounds more like you're saying God can't make a blue circle, because "blue" and "circular" have nothing to do with each other.

God exists and is sinless. Other things can exist and be sinless.
What "other things" can exist and be sinless?
 
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Moral Orel

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What "other things" can exist and be sinless?
Rocks, plants, animals, angels. The point in the statement though is that there isn't something contradictory about something being sinless and existing. If God can be it, He can create it, it isn't a logical conundrum.
 
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Oncedeceived,

You made an error in your quote format so I will copy/paste something you said here:

Who said God is limited by logic, not I. Logic is a part of God's nature. God knows all things so they can be decided by God.

This is self contradictory because by definition a thing is limited by its nature.

Also you said this:

Yes, He is the most powerful force there is. He is also the root of logic. He can not change His logical nature which is what you are supposing. The only nature that is sinless is God's by nature, by structure and by being. God is not a created Being and as such everything ...everything else is created. All living things, the universe itself and even the spiritual world occupants of angels, Cherubim, Seraphim and even Satan. None of these living beings besides God were created sinless because sinless creation is like a square circle. Logically impossible. There is no possible world that physical beings can be created without sin. Being sinless is being perfection and the only perfect Being is God. No physical being can be perfection. All created must be shed of its sin nature and the one and only way is through acceptance of salvation through Christ Jesus.

Whatever you want to call logic - God's nature, the nature of reality, or simply manmade - God is certainly limited by it. You said so yourself and then went on to deny it.

Lastly, you said this:

We discover mathematics and the laws of logic. That this "incompleteness" of everything is no argument against either logic nor mathematics being rooted in God. In fact, it can be argued that this can actually provide support for God.

The problem is that even if I grant you this in its entirety, you are left with the fact that God can't be omniscient. You didn't address that issue at all, and it's the only thing I was trying to prove. So I do not believe you followed the argument.

IF logic and math come from God THEN he is necessarily not omniscient. IF logic and math are manmade THEN God might be omniscient.
 
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AMR

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In our glory there will be no so-called libertarian free will, the ability to choose otherwise than our inclinations. Of course, this speaks to the often held notion that we possess this libertarian free will now.
 
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SnowyMacie

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I'm not assuming anything. I explained my reasoning and asked you a question, which you ignored. Therefore you are the one making baseless assumptions. Once again,

You make it sound like Satan's actions were sanctioned by God. If so, why was Satan punished? If not, how was Satan not sinful? I do not think your position is coherent.


You may not realizing that you are assuming anything, but you in fact are assuming things about the passages you are talking about. Satan is not even mentioned in the Genesis 3 passage, it's not until later that Satan is connected to the serpent, after the idea of the devil is introduced into Judeo-Christian, but mostly Christian, thinking. Furthermore, the curse to the serpent in Genesis 3:14 clearly is reflecting only the serpent itself, and whatever spirit is possessing the serpent. The curse upon the serpent also reflects the common near-Eastern belief that snakes ate dirt, referenced in Isaiah 65 and Micah 7.

In other words, there's no reason to indicate from what is said in Genesis 3, which is an allegorical and symbolic story, that Satan is involved in this story in any way whatsoever, the first mention of "Ha-Satan" is in Numbers. I think that it can be logically inferred that the serpent was indeed possessed or somehow under the control of Satan, and therefore Satan's punishment would be a continual lowering from Heaven.



If it is not explained in Scripture what a glorified body is, or if you cannot at the very least make logical inferences from scattered information, then your claims about what entails such a body is indeed fan fiction. You've done literally nothing to disprove my claim that angelic beings and former humans will be more or less indistinguishable. And if you recall, such a proposition is catastrophic to your salvation because angelic beings are known to have been exiled from heaven.

1) It will be both physical and spiritual, therefore eternal and of Heaven instead of Earth. (1 Corinthians 15:42-58)
2) They will not suffer from sickness or death (numerous passages)
3) It will be like the resurrected body of Christ (1 John 3:2, Philippians 3:21)
4) While it will have physical form and solidity to the touch, we will have the ability to "teleport" (John 20, Luke 24:39)
5) We will still eat and enjoy food, but obviously will not be necessary (Luke 24:40-43)




Again, if your claims don't come from Scripture or if they aren't at the very least logically inferred, then your claims are fan fiction. You cannot whimsically dismiss claims from scientists or historians while at the same time expecting me to accept the claims of theologians.

The Second Coming is not a scientific or historical event, but it is currently a theological concept, which is why I do expect you to accept the claims of theologians if you want to actually understand what Christians should believe about the second coming of Christ. The same goes for the doctrine of salvation, it's a theological concept, so the experts on it are going to be theologians. I am aware that people don't rise from the dead, teleport, fly, etc....and that's why it's a big deal that Jesus did.
 
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In our glory there will be no so-called libertarian free will, the ability to choose otherwise than our inclinations. Of course, this speaks to the often held notion that we possess this libertarian free will now.

So... why didn't God make us glorified/redeemed/perfect/sinless/etc to begin with? He was certainly capable of doing so, as the angels are without sin... although the way that works seems to be incoherent to me.
 
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You may not realizing that you are assuming anything, but you in fact are assuming things about the passages you are talking about. Satan is not even mentioned in the Genesis 3 passage, it's not until later that Satan is connected to the serpent, after the idea of the devil is introduced into Judeo-Christian, but mostly Christian, thinking. Furthermore, the curse to the serpent in Genesis 3:14 clearly is reflecting only the serpent itself, and whatever spirit is possessing the serpent. The curse upon the serpent also reflects the common near-Eastern belief that snakes ate dirt, referenced in Isaiah 65 and Micah 7.

The only assumption I made is that you generally believe in the words of Christ and Paul. I've argued with Christians in the past saying that the serpent in the garden and Lucifer/the morning star are different entities, neither of which is Satan, but I was shown that the New Testament does refer to the serpent in the garden as Satan (although I don't remember where I saw it).

In other words, there's no reason to indicate from what is said in Genesis 3, which is an allegorical and symbolic story, that Satan is involved in this story in any way whatsoever, the first mention of "Ha-Satan" is in Numbers. I think that it can be logically inferred that the serpent was indeed possessed or somehow under the control of Satan, and therefore Satan's punishment would be a continual lowering from Heaven.

I do not think that your liberal theology is buoyant. Recall that it was through one man that sin entered the world, and through one man that it was defeated. Now you are changing that reading to, "It was through one man who didn't actually exist that sin entered the world, and through one man who did actually exist that it was defeated." I do not think this was Paul's meaning, and it seems to be essential doctrine.

1) It will be both physical and spiritual, therefore eternal and of Heaven instead of Earth. (1 Corinthians 15:42-58)

I do not know what this means, and if you cannot explain it to me then you don't know either.

2) They will not suffer from sickness or death (numerous passages)
3) It will be like the resurrected body of Christ (1 John 3:2, Philippians 3:21)
4) While it will have physical form and solidity to the touch, we will have the ability to "teleport" (John 20, Luke 24:39)
5) We will still eat and enjoy food, but obviously will not be necessary (Luke 24:40-43)

Again, I don't know what it is about this set of properties you think is so different from angelic beings.

1.) Angelic beings certainly seem to be both physical and spiritual, and certainly seem to be eternal and of Heaven instead of Earth.
2.) Angelic beings do not suffer from sickness or death.
3.) Angelic beings are like the resurrected body of Christ. Recall in Matthew the guards collapsed in terror upon the countenance of the angels, so clearly they are quite glorified.
4.) Angels have physical form and solidity to the touch, as shown by the fact that men wanted to know them carnally. Also, they are clearly able to teleport.
5.) Angelic beings are not known to eat food, as far as I know, but there is no reason to suggest that they cannot do so and they certainly have no need of it.

So again, you've not shown me any distinguishable difference between former humans and angels. As far as I can see, the only difference will be their past experiences, but their current states will be more or less the same. Angelic beings are known to have been exiled from heaven, and there is no indication that this cannot occur again. Therefore there is no indication that former humans in heaven might not be exiled.



The Second Coming is not a scientific or historical event, but it is currently a theological concept, which is why I do expect you to accept the claims of theologians if you want to actually understand what Christians should believe about the second coming of Christ. The same goes for the doctrine of salvation, it's a theological concept, so the experts on it are going to be theologians. I am aware that people don't rise from the dead, teleport, fly, etc....and that's why it's a big deal that Jesus did.

I was raised in the belief that the apocalypse will be literal and physically real, and that it will occur any day now. If you think that's wrong, you're welcome to engage your friends on that. I don't really care, nor is it pertinent to the issue here.

And again, you've just asserted what you already did, so I'll do the same:

If your claims don't come from Scripture or if they aren't at the very least logically inferred, then your claims are fan fiction. You cannot whimsically dismiss claims from scientists or historians while at the same time expecting me to accept the claims of theologians.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Rocks, plants, animals, angels. The point in the statement though is that there isn't something contradictory about something being sinless and existing. If God can be it, He can create it, it isn't a logical conundrum.
Obviously rocks, plants and other none living things are not sinful or sinless. They have no mental abilities. Animals, while they have mental abilities are not sinful or sinless as they have no reason to determine what is right and what is wrong. It is a logical conundrum. Please explain how God being a Being that is eternal, not created, and everlasting create us as gods? Please explain.
 
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Oncedeceived

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So... why didn't God make us glorified/redeemed/perfect/sinless/etc to begin with? He was certainly capable of doing so, as the angels are without sin... although the way that works seems to be incoherent to me.
Angels were able to sin and did.
 
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BigDaddy4

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OK, I'll bite. What aspect of believing actually makes my sins forgiven? Can you explain the mechanics of that process to me please? Oh that's right, you can't. You can cite "Saved by grace through faith" but that only makes me repeat the question. Only God knows what he actually intends to do. In your theology, all you're equipped to say is that God has atoned for our sins against him. He can actually still choose to leave BigDaddy4 out of heaven purely for his own amusement and there's nothing you can do about it as you haven't earned heaven but are only given it by his whimsical suspension of justice. Conversely, he can take me into heaven even as I blaspheme for all eternity if that is what he chooses.
A self-professed atheist will never make it to heaven.

Romans 10:9-13
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

The promise of God is available to all who choose it.
 
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Chriliman

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The true heaven is being One with God. If we're One with a being who cannot sin, how could we possibly sin? Answer: We can't. We will be One with God and God has free will to do as He pleases and we enjoy His free will to give us life eternally.
 
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The true heaven is being One with God. If we're One with a being who cannot sin, how could we possibly sin? Answer: We can't. We will be One with God and God has free will to do as He pleases and we enjoy His free will to give us life eternally.

Leaving the angels unaddressed leaves my argument unaddressed.
 
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Chriliman

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Leaving the angels unaddressed leaves my argument unaddressed.

Sorry, I thought the primary question was "Will we sin when we get to heaven?" I did answer that question. Do you have another question?
 
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