Will the Universe, the Wicked, Death, and Hell All One Day Be Destroyed?

mark kennedy said:

Hell as we understand it in the Old Testament is virtually unknown. The word for Hell, γέεννα (geenna), is introduced by the Lord during the Sermon on the Mount. It is used 12 times in the New Testament, 11 times in the synoptic gospels by the Lord himself. The word is actually the name for a valley where the children of Israel used to toss their infant children as a sacrifice to Molech, the practice was known as making your children pass through the fire.

Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. (Outline of Biblical Usage)

There are other passages that describe Hell:

• "and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13:42)
• "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Mat 25:46)
• These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (1Th. 1:9)
• But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Heb. 10:39
• These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (2Pet. 2:17)
• raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (Jude 1:13)
• He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." (Rev. 2:11)
• Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev. 19:20)
• The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
• Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (Rev 20:14)
• "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

Notice Rev. 20:10 says they will be tormented forever. Other places the fire is said to burn forever but the appears to be the only place that insists that they are tormented forever, at least in my estimation. I don't see much to argue about here, annihilation is one way of reading the texts in question that one proof text not withstanding. For me the one thing that was intriguing about the subject matter was the connection to Sheol, it's synonymous with the grave.

Grace and peace,
Mark

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mark kennedy said:

Glad you enjoyed it, since I originally wrote that I found something interesting with regards to the word 'torment' in Rev. 20:10:

• to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
• to question by applying torture
• to torture
• to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
• to be harassed, distressed
• of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind. (G928 - basanizō βασανίζω)

Notice the first one is what the instrument of torture is. There could be something in the language that puts more emphasis on what is causing the torture then can be easily translated. I never really did resolve Rev. 20:10 but I think annihilation is a perfectly permissible alternative reading of those passages, certain difficulties not withstanding.

I guess I have some differences with the false prophet being Islam because I believe it's a person. The beast is a kingdom that conquers the world and certainly would include the apostate version of pagan Rome, but not limited to it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

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~Anastasia~ said:

Please let's remember we are in Traditional Theology.

Annihilationism is allowed only in Controversial theology. Because the Church never understood the Scriptures to teach annihilationism (though Orthodoxy actually DOES have alternative explanations which involve God not allowing people to suffer in their torment forever - but not by wiping them out).

And this most certainly isn't the place to equate the papacy or any Church with the beast in Revelation.

If you have questions, feel free to ask. You should also read the Statement of Purpose. Thank you.

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~Anastasia~ said:

I'll put in a request for it to be moved. I thought that you probably wanted something other than the Traditional view.

No offense, but "some Protestants" pretty much covers any variations found anywhere in theology. That's where the diversity of belief comes in, because of how Christianity has developed over history.

As I said, Orhtodoxy finds the idea that has developed (by changing several interpretations) of a God who vengefully burns people in hell forever as punishment for offending Him to be completely repugnant. But historically the Church has understood God and eternity differently.

I'll put in that request for you. (And just to let you know, if you want something like that in the future, you can also post the request in your thread, and "report" your own post, with your request repeated in the "reason" box. It won't get you in trouble, but it will get the attention of the mods.)

Have a great day!

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FreeinChrist said:

MOD HAT

This thread was moved from Traditional Theology to Controversial Christian Theology.

Carry on....

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~Anastasia~ said:

And since you are now in Controversial, I do want to add ...

As I said, our Church views God as good and loving. His intent and desire is to save everyone. He gets no pleasure at seeing anyone suffer.

We cannot teach universalism, because that was not given to us by the Apostles, nor by Christ. However, along with God, we hope and pray for the salvation of each person.

We don't delve into what we have not been given, nor teach what we do not know. But we do know, as I said, that God doesn't take pleasure in anyone's suffering, loves each person, and wants each one reconciled to Him. Souls are eternal, though. Man was not created to die. Had there been no fall, man would have lived, neither body nor soul dying. But God Himself is the Source of Life. In shutting himself away from God through sin, man brought death to himself. It was always God's will to restore, which is why Christ defeated death and made the resurrection of the body possible. ALL will be resurrected in the end, even those who hate God.

God loves each of us, and He is so pure, Holy, so other ... that if we are in His Presence, feeling His love, yet in our sins and rejecting Him, we will experience that Presence and love as torment. Imagine a teenager that is really mad at their parents having to stand there and be hugged and kissed by the parents. The rebellion of the teen will experience that as torture. But hatred of God is a deeper rebellion (the teen doesn't really hate his parents) ... and God's Presence is much more profound than a simple human embrace. God won't force anyone's will, but He STILL loves, because He IS love. So ... anyone who hates Him will be tormented (and likely by regret too). He will suffer ... our God is a consuming fire - so awesome is His very Presence. But it will be a suffering if his own making.

Now the speculative part. We can HOPE, and we do, that it is possible that with knowing the Truth, humans who hate God might let go of what sets them against God, at some point. It would be consistent with God's character for this to happen. He doesn't punish to exact pain, but everything He does is ultimately for restoration. We don't say that it is impossible for Him to restore those souls ... if not all, perhaps many it most ... from their torment. We desire, we pray, we love with God, and we hope that all men will eventually be drawn to Him. Or almost all. We don't know. We cannot proclaim this. We must not assure anyone of the chance of delayed reconciliation. But we always hope in the case if each person. And we certainly don't say "God can't". We do know He desires it.



And I could have posted that in Traditional Theology, since it IS an accepted understanding of many of the Saints from the early days. But for the sake of not stirring things up, and since I thought you'd rather be here, I waited until it was moved. But this is a teaching (the possibility) from far back. Annihilationism isn't, but I can understand why it resounds with many. It really is NOT in God's nature to torment forever with no purpose in mind. You are right about that. And in the end, it's more important to get an understanding of God's character right, than it is to know exactly how He will accomplish what He hasn't told us.

God be with you.

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Phantasman said:

If you believe Revelations is a "Gospel" message, then the Father is a god of destruction.

I don't. I tend to follow the idea of the early church Paul created (gnosis).

If the Father were a destroyer (murderer) he would have destroyed his adversary (devil, Satan, whatever) in the beginning. Our paths are laid out before us. We choose them. We are led. They lead to final destinations. We enter into the kingdom of Heaven by seeking it. Whatever path we seek, it continues when we physically die. The Earth (and Universe) will die on it's own, as it was imperfect from the beginning, and decaying all along (as the imperfect body does).

I know it's seems controversial to the Orthodox thought, but books of gnosis teaches spiritual, and not physical. Revelations is physical. Christ said his words were spirit.

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Noxot said:

I think they will be destroy when they are willing but as for the universe I don't know if it has an end or what God will do with it. it appears that it will be around for a while, my guess is that God plans to grow more souls from this universe.

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