Will the Mark be something like this?

[Godz Marine]

My time this week is very limited so my posts and responses will be few and infrequent so please bear with me.

Charles,
Welcome! And thanks for the links. I took a quick peek and look forward to reading more!

I do have one question ,

The test of all scripture is that there must be agreement especially with the Tankah (Old Testament) . But the way the Revelation has been studied by most makes for glaring contraditions. This study reconciles all scripture and sychronizes the Tribulation timelines from both old and new testament writings.

I agree somewhat. The New Testament Church is not dealt with directly in the Old Testament so how do we establish truths concerning the church without agreement within the Old Testament? Just a thought.


Love, Peace, and Grace!

Greg

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles,
I do have one question ,
I agree somewhat. The New Testament Church is not dealt with directly in the Old Testament so how do we establish truths concerning the church without agreement within the Old Testament? Just a thought.


Love, Peace, and Grace!

Greg

You are correct in a sense that the "New Testament Church" is not a big subject in the Tanakh. Please forgive me in advance for what I am about to say, but the truth is the New Testament Church is mostly an invention of man. What the Tanakh sees, which is different, is the fulfillment of the promises to Avram that the Gentiles would also be brought into this special relationship with God as part of Israel, under the renewed covenant, when the Torah is written on all mens hearts. Jer31. There was always an expectation and a promise to be fulfilled that the Gentiles would be included in the covenant people. What we see in the first century and to a great extent until 318 AD is that the believers Jew and Gentile are all one people who practice Judaism with a new understanding as Yeshua (Jesus) being the subject of the Torah/Tanakh and the Messiah who was to come. And with His coming, the nations of the earth were to also be gathered. Paul was especially excited about this inclusion because it meant to him that the promise of the Kingdom was breaking upon the earth. He was corect in his understanding too! Because the Kingdom was breaking forth, but it has not completed its revelation and will not until what Paul spoke of is finally realized, that the center wall of division is removed. This center wall was mostly the Oral Toah, that is to say the rabbinic traditons added to Gods law, that made a class distinction between Jews and Gentiles. Paul realized that this wall was taken away by Messiah and that all men became part of the family of God through faith alone, (and he sets before us many examples starting with Abraham) and that race or sex or social status meant nothing. It was our faith and our obedience that mattered.

So when we look to the scriptures for insight into the final events of history, we need to look for the church as being part of a union of people both Jew and Gentile that do two things; have trusting faith in Yeshua the Messiah and are obedient to the commandments of God.What we see in most of the world is a Church that defines itself as something superior to the Jews and under a separate plan of salvation, with special privilages. (replacement theology) where Israel is shoved aside and the New Testament Church takes her place a receives all the promises that were made to her. This is a lie fabricated out of anti-semetic hatred of the 4th century. It was not a doctrine adhered to or taught by Paul, James John or Peter. In fact it is contrary to the word of God. But why does it continue? TRADITION! (in the voice of Tevia) TRADITION!!!

But the truth is there, plainly written on all the pages of the scriptures. We need to set aside what our denominational friends have been feeding us from their traditons and call them to task based on Gods word. We know more about the New testament writings today than at any other time in History and what we have found is the true meaning of the words of Paul for example have been twisted into something completely the opposite of what he said and how he lived by example.

I always have trouble being brief. Sory,

Charles in Florida

 

[Godz Marine]

Tonites prayer meeting finished sooner than I thought so I do have a little time.

Just as you have trouble in being breif, I have trouble putting into writing what I want to say. I am more the orater so please do not take anything within this post as condemning.

I do find your melding of the New Covenant church, which is under the blood of Christ, with the nation of Israel as it is in it's disobedience and rebellion to be "The" church a stretch. Forgive me if I do not see the connection but you just haven't made it clear in light of scripture that shows otherwise.

So what you are saying is that even though the nation of Israel, the elect of God who has chosen to be disobedient and live in rebellion towards God will share the wrath that is awaiting them in the final week with those who have come into the household of God through obedience?

I am not saying that Jews are to take second place to the NT church, on the contrary, they are the true children of God and as you have said the church is adopted. But because of this adoption we are partakers of the promises of God to Abraham.

Just as the blood of the Passover Lamb to escape the wrath of God in Egypt, the NT church is under the Blood of Christ to escape the wrath of God during the tribulation. The nation of Israel's final act of rebellion towards God was their denial of Christ as the Messiah so they are not under the protection of the Blood of the Lamb. The church has accepted Christ as the Messiah, the Savior. As the Lamb. The NT church is based upon their belief in Christ as Saviour, as the Lamb.

Throughout the Gospels Jesus makes it clear to the disciples and those who heard the parables explaining so that the OT ways were quickly coming to an end and things were from then on to be done under a new Covenant. The old way of the Jews was fuldilled and they were to adopt a new form of religion, they were to become the church. However, they denied Christ and put Him to death.

A good example of such parables can be found back to back in Matthew, chapters 21 and 22. In chapter 21, verses 33-40 Jesus tells us the parable of the wicked vinedressers. In chapter 22, verses 2-14 we have the parable of the marriage feast. Both are examples of how in rebellion and disobedience Israel as a nation has turned their backs on God. Because of this God will give what He had intended for His elect children over to those who are "adopted" by God. The veil being torn into was a sign that the way of life the Jew had become accustomed to was no more, change was now to be embraced. The age of grace was now at hand. Christ said that He did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it and because of this we now can stand before the Father cleansed of our sins, reconcilled with the Father because of our Mediator, Jesus. Why would we need to suffer the wrath of God's punishment reserved for rebellious Israel????


Nuff 4 now!

Love, Peace, and Grace!

Greg

 

[Godz Marine]

Before getting offline earlier I downloaded several selections from your site so I may read it at my leisure and will delete them when done. I was reading some of it before bed and simply couldn't get some things out of my mind so here I am again.

Paul has stated, "in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." You state on your site that this is the second coming of Christ (which He does return to set foot upon the earth again). However, Paul, a scholar of the scriptures who was well versed on the second coming and what it entails says in the rest of the verse of which I just quoted from that we will meet Him in the air. Why would Paul say this if He knew Christ was going to set foot upon the earth?

Also since we read the disciples were told that Christ would return just as He departed, how does this fit into "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"? A "twinkling of an eye" has been measured to be about 1/50,000 of a second. Do clouds descend at a faster rate than they ascend? His second coming will be before all the earth. Paul doesn't make it sound as though "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" is time enough for the entire world to behold His coming.

Granted, the idea of a rapture is nowhere to be found within the OT. But then again God gave a vision to Peter of what was now clean to eat, things unheard of in the OT to be clean.

Also, why is it the "New" Covenant if the Old one still takes precedence over it? That sounds a bit contradictory. A covenant is a contract with some serious implications, and in this case one with spiritual implications also. This would make the New Covenant simply a revised version of the old one, making it a more up to date version as God has dictated. Paul new this and thus presented us with the new and revised parts. This is how we come to have the church, the body of Christ., isn't it?

Well, like I said, just some thoughts, or perhaps too much Southwestern Lasagna for supper!!


Love, Peace, and Grace!

Greg

 

[Krazeekkc]

I comepletly think it's the Verichip! It's a little bit bigger than a grain of rice. Here is a couple of links on it: http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0%2C1848%2C55999%2C00.html

http://www.wnbc.com/money/2514572/detail.html

And here is a Christian article on it:

(to read the original story, do an internet search for
​

“ABC Northwoods”)
​

- The US Government killed more than 11,000 of its
​

own citizens and altered the magnetic fields of the
​

earth forever with hundreds of above-ground nuclear
​

tests in the 50’s and 60’s.​

​

​

(NY Times March 1st 2002)
​

-​

​

34 states have already (3/20/02) introduced
​

“Emergency Health Powers” legislation that would
​

allow state governments to declare a “public health
​

emergency” under incredibly broad standards, begin
​

quarantining large numbers of people and administer
​

mandatory vaccinations.​

​

​

(see Association of
​

American Physicians and Surgeons
​

www.aapsonline.org or go to www.law.com and
​

search “Emergency Health Powers.”) This one of
​

many appalling power grabs made easier since
​

September 11​

​

th.
​

- In the last six months, the US government has
​

secretly sent dozens of people to countries where
​

they are tortured for information.​

​

​

(Washington Post
​

March 11​

​

th 2002) Those people are all supposed to
​

have been connected to “terrorism,” but then so have
​

ice-cream makers “Ben and Jerry’s” (in a US House
​

of Representatives Subcommittee Hearing on Eco-
​

Terrorism, February 12​

​

th 2002.)
​

Example after example after example can be found of
​

every​

​

​

government, especially here in the “land of the
​

free/home of the brave,” using lies, torture, murder
​

and black-mail to increase their control over the
​

people at large.
​

Don’’ t ll et them put a chii p ii n you..
​

Say NO to the ii mpll ant..
​

The Chip
​

The “Veri-Chip” or “Digital Angel” is a
​

microchip implant that can hold personal, medical and
​

other information under your skin. It can be read by
​

an electronic scanner several feet away from your
​

body. It may soon also include Global Positioning
​

System (GPS) Satellite tracking capabilities so that
​

your location can be monitored 24 hours a day.
​

The chip is made by a company from Florida
​

called Applied Digital Solutions (ADS). On December
​

19​

​

th 2001, the company unveiled the chip to the public
​

and announced that it was seeking FDA government
​

approval to begin marketing the chip for human use.
​

On April 4​

​

th, 2002 it received that approval.
​

If we all “get chipped” (as the company likes to
​

call it) we will be much easier to keep track of and
​

control. Of course the company says it’s for our own
​

good.
​

If you’ve ever had any doubts about the
​

government or corporations – don’t let them put a
​

microchip in your arm. Once that’s happened, you’ll
​

be at their mercy​

​

.
​

The Medii a Bll ii tz
​

From February 1​

​

st through March 15th (6 weeks)
​

there has been a huge amount of favorable corporate
​

media coverage of the Veri-Chip. The company’s
​

CEO calls “the amount and quality of media
​

coverage…astounding.”
​

The Chip has been featured on​

​

CNN, MSNBC,
​

Fox’s The O’Reilly Factor, Nickelodeon Kids’ News,
​

The 700 Club Christian News​

​

​

and many many others.
​

In the last 6 weeks there have been 30 news stories
​

so glowing in their coverage of The Veri-Chip that
​

ADS has put links for them up on its web page.
​

(www.adsx.com)
​

People all around the world are doing what it takes to
​

say NO (to the implant and more!)
​

This pamphlet is an attempt to save your life,
​

sanity and ability to revolt. Master copies can
​

be downloaded from the Cascadia Media
​

Collective at:​

​

​

www.cascadiamedia.org
​

Fox TV’s​

​

The O’Reilly Factor called The Chip “the
​

wave of the future.” Andy Rooney said on​

​

6 0
​

Minutes​

​

​

, “I wouldn’t mind having something
​

planted permanently in my arm that would identify
​

me.”
​

The Company told Tech TV on March 13​

​

th that
​

2,000 kids have already written to request that they
​

have the chip implanted in them.
​

The Mark of The Beast?
​

Many people think of the Biblically prophesized
​

Mark of The Beast when they hear about the Veri-
​

Chip. Many Christians are concerned that that’s
​

exactly what’s going on, that the chip is a sign of the
​

end of the world.
​

The conservative Christian daily news show​

​

The
​

700 Club​

​

​

, hosted by Pat Robertson, did a story on the
​

Veri-Chip and discussed the Mark of The Beast issue.
​

They decided that it couldn’t be what had been
​

biblically prophesized because it’s going to be
​

voluntary and it won’t involve buying and selling.
​

According to them, “getting chipped” is just fine.
​

Is it Really Voluntary?
​

The makers of Veri-Chip and the media that loves
​

it assure us that receiving the implant will be up to
​

each of us as individuals. ADS Vice President Keith
​

Bolton told​

​

The 700 Club that "We live in a free
​

society. You can either elect to smoke [or not]. You
​

can elect to have the VeriChip. So it’s a freedom of
​

choice technology."
​

This emphasis on the chip being voluntary is a
​

new part of ADS’s public relations campaign, though.
​

For example, just last December the company’s CEO,
​

Richard Sullivan, told​

​

The Palm Beach Post that Veri-
​

Chips could be a great alternative to green cards for
​

tracking “foreigners.” “Foreigners who pass though
​

customs or immigration could be injected with the
​

chip, allowing officials to monitor their activities better
​

and keep terrorists out.”
​

Likewise, in the same article Sullivan says that in five
​

years, he can see the chips being used in children,
​

the elderly and prisoners. That doesn’t sound
​

voluntary.
​

The company’s vice president, Bolton, told the
​

Washington Post​

​

​

in December that use of the chip
​

would be voluntary,​

​

unless the law allows otherwise.
​

What About Buyii ng and Sell ll ii ng?
​

Religious scholars who, for whatever reason,
​

approve of the Veri-Chip say that it isn’t The Mark of
​

The Beast because it won’t be used for buying and
​

selling. That kind of talk is pretty new for ADS,
​

though. CEO Richard Sullivan said in December that
​

in five years, we could be using the Veri-Chip instead
​

of ATM or credit cards.
​

Ultimately, the biblical technicalities aren’t the only
​

thing that’s important. The basic idea is this: if all
​

compliant citizens promise to be compliant not just
​

now, but forever, then anyone at any time in the future
​

who doesn’t obey orders will be easy to identify, track
​

and possibly exclude from society. In Starhawk’s
​

book​

​

The Fifth Sacred Thing, for example, a futuristic
​

totalitarian government releases genetically
​

engineered diseases into the air supply. In order to
​

survive, everyone must receive regular vaccinations.
​

Anyone who questions orders is simply denied their
​

next vaccination and is unable to survive.
​

Does this seem like a relevant story in connection
​

to the Veri-Chip? I think so.
​

Rull ers Can’’ t Be Trusted
​

When thinking about all of this, consider the
​

following facts:
​

-​

​

The US Government once planned to kill US
​

civilians as an excuse to invade another
​

country.​

​

​

(ABC News, May 1st 2001)
​

The plan, called Operation Northwoods, was
​

presented to the Kennedy administration in 1962,
​

signed by the heads of the Army, Navy, Air Force and
​

Marines, and asked for permission to detonate
​

explosives in US cities, blow up a space shuttle with
​

John G John Glenn in it, and blame it all on Cuba in
​

order to whip up US public support for an invasion.
​

Some Christians say this old Digital Angel logo looks
​

a whole lot like the number 666, when you turn it upside down.
​

Dick Sullivan, CEO
​

Applied Digital Solutions
​

Do you want this man to
​

know where you are?
​

Next time you see some one who looks different from you,
​

say hi to them. They probably don’t want an implant either!​

Well.... So we are in the begginning of the End Times! ​

Here is a link on it: http://www.christianforums.com/t73968 ​

You might want to scim through it! ​

So.....​

 

[Krazeekkc]

Sorry, the article is a little funky lookin' ! it was ment fo a acrobat reader! Oops!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Hello Greg

Well I see you have run into a few things that need further investigation. Thats good. May I suggest that we take these things in a step by step way to avoid a multi-pointed discussion which is difficult to follow. There may be others as well who will decide to join in and this will make things difficult to keep track of.

I will try to answer a few of your concerns in an overall sense first and then we can become more specific.

The church going through the wrath of God? No, never! "The church is not appointed to wrath". And the old testament says the same thing in Isaiah, "Come my children into your chambers for a while until his wrath has gone by." Isaih 26:20 But it goes on to say "for the time of his indignation has come when he shall punish the wicked for their sins."

The apostle Paul said the same thing really. He speaks to the believers who were suffering at the hands of the wicked, and said that they, like himself, would all find rest, (enter heaven) when the Lord comes. Not before the Lords return in a mysterious snatching away, but when the Lord comes in flaming fire to punish the wicked.

II Thes 1: [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe

And Again from Isaiah:


ISA 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.

ISA 26:21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.

Part of the misunderstanding by popular theologians is that they fail to correctly identify the timing of this wrath. It is after the faithful are removed. They enter the chambers first, then the wrath. This is consistent with new testament scriptures and most would agree, but where they miss the mark is in differentiating the tribulation from the wrath. The tribulation is a time of pressure, where men are tested by the situation on earth, (a terrible time) to see whether they really believe in God or have faith only in the political powers of men. This time of tribulation lasts 1260 days. But it is not the wrath. The wrath follows and is almost 30 days long.

Think for a moment of the Exodus. The true believers covered themselves under the blood, a picture of Messiahs deliverance. (You can be sure that there were those who didn't believe in this covering and were lost.) But this too was not the wrath of God. The people of Israel had lived in the midst of all the plagues and judgments against Egypt (the Tribulation), and yet had suffered nothing for it. Even when darkness fell upon the land for days, the Israelites had light in their homes. God always makes a difference between his own and Satans lot. But my point is: Israel was there in the midst of all this tribulation right up until it was time for God's wrath. Now as the wrath is to fall, he finally separates his people and takes them out of the land, AND (this is important) he draws the wicked (Pharoa and his army) out into the wilderness to a deserted place to pour out his wrath upon them. He takes them out to the Red sea. From the time of the death of the first borns and the shedding of the lambs blood (their covering) it is three days and a half, then in front of all the witneses of Israel he completely destroys the wicked. Not one is left alive. Apply this picture to the second coming. This time the savior is not Moshe but is Yeshua and instead of parting the sea, Yeshua parts the heavens and brings his own through the parted heavens to be witness to the destruction of the wicked. He does not destroy the entire earth, just as all of Egypt is not destroyed in the past. No, God is righteous, he has gathered the wicked into a separate and desolate place, this time not the sea but Armageddon. There he utterly destroys them.

The typology of the Passover is the pattern for the second coming. Paul was Hebrew, a pharisee and understood this, and it is reflected in every word that he speaks concerning the return of Yeshua.

Paul says in the letter II thes. as he returns to the subject that concerning the return of the lord and our being gathered together to be with him, that it will happen in a specific way, First a restraining element is removed, (probably Gods own will exercised through angelic power) then a great apostasy takes place where men will abandon the faith, then the antichrist is revealed, and then the Lord comes to gather us all living and dead. We know that the the Lord said the same exact thing.

MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In the verse just ahead of this he also says , If anyone tells you the Lord has come, before this one final appearing, like in the desert or in the inner chambers (like a secret appearance in the rapture) don't go looking there for Him, because it isn't true. He says when He comes every eye will see him.He will come in great power and glory.

Here is the KEY to the timing. Throughout the old testment and the New testament including the revelation there is a single event, something that is unexplainable by science, that will make the end of the tribulation and beginning of the Lords wrath. It is the sun and the moon shall be darkened and the stars will not give their light. Just as in Egypt. This single event synchronizes all prophecy in time. We see this at the time of the 6th seal.

Look carefully at the events. They are exactly as the O.T. prophets said and the same that Yeshua said.

REV 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, [13] and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. [14] The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

REV 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. [16] They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! [17] For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"


Now concerning the vision of Paul and the N.T. church. Lets take a break and get back to it in more detail. Allow me to say only that Pauls ministry was not to separate Gentiles from Jews or Believers in Messiah from those who did not yet believe. His ministry was to bring the believers, both Jew and Gentile into fellowship together in the synagogue and to grow together. This was the entire postion taken by the council in Jerusalem. The Gentile (Pagans) had to demonstrate a separation from Idolitry,Behave in a way that would not be offensive to the more mature Jewish brothers and to get into Table fellowship and learn the Torah.


AC 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. [20] Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. [21] For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."


More later. I am in the midst of a move, with movers bringing our furnishings today or tomorow. So I am a bit short on time. Hope you understand.

CHarles in Florida

 

[altya]

What a nice thread. You guys know a lot and I am thankful you share it with us.

Everyday I copy and paste every posting and read and re-read it scripture references. Keep it going!!!!

 

[crystalpc]

What a nice thread. You guys know a lot and I am thankful you share it with us.
Everyday I copy and paste every posting and read and re-read it scripture references. Keep it going!!!!

It has been an interesting and challenging thread! I have to say that it has kept me on my toes in thinking these things through. There were some great points posted on all views.
We can trust the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truths, and it is always good to look at these things, not only to see if your belief holds up to the bible standard, or see if there might be something you have missed in looking at the whole of the evidence.
Great Thread I have thoroughly enjoyed it!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The 7 seals and first 6 trumpets take place in succession in the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation week....

Greg

Hi Greg,
Consider this alternate senario.
The seven trumpets are included in the seventh seal.
The seven bowls are included int he seventh trumpet.
Therefore everything in the 7 bowls right up to the end are actually part of the seventh seal, including the first resurrection. Hence the first resurrection occurs during the seventh or "last" trump.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I hope that I am not re-stating too much, but this is why plotting these things out on paper is helpfull. If we use the darkening of the sun and moon as the common point for the olivet discourse, the seals, trumpet and for the bowls, you find that the last three seals and trumpets and bowls all take place at the same time. The first three seals and maybe the 4th in part, are part of the things that lead up to the tribulation, and is what Yeshua calls "The beginning of sorrows." I think of it (as an example)as an nuclear detonation where you have concentric rings moving outward, with the greatest destruction at ground zero. Ground zero, in this metaphor, is where the beast empire is located, because this is the enemy of the lord and the target of the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation is to bring men to repentance to be saved.

Sorry to go on about this. I think it is important in ways that we do yet understand.

Charles in Florida

 

[crystalpc]

Hence the first resurrection occurs during the seventh or "last" trump.

That is exactly what Paul said. Last means there is no other after it, first means there was none before!

Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.