Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

[Stephen Kendall]

If God says one thing and the Bible says God says another opposite thing, we have a problem, don't we? God uses the all will be saved and all will bow to Jesus. How is it that another section uses an errant Greek word for eternal, and was this done because it was stern and horrific (Pagan theatrics)? The early Christians, if they knew of this unusual and harsh passage (everlasting torment Hell), probably closed their minds to such nonsense & hypocricy, for they saw God in the better light, for they loved him and followed his beloved son. Universal salvation made Christ's sacrifice more perfect and glorious and it was following all of the scriptures that spoke that way (over 100 passages).

Surely, something isn't right when the Bible appears to be saying two opposite things. Does someone pick and choose, and so call their Father and Lord Jesus in such terrible terms (of a sad & torturous eternal punishment). No, this sad belief never existed with the merry, joyful, hoping and loving followers of Jesus (the primitive church). How could it? Why did the faith spread so easy? It was because universal salvation never existed within any form of Paganism, it was a concept that was foreign to planet Earth and the world. It was the glorious redemption of God' creation through his son Jesus. Everlasting tormenting Hell concept existed within Paganism and was a part of the World already. It wasn't foreign at all and it definitely was nothing new or cheerful. Did you know that entire sections of the Roman Empire were quickly converted to Christianity? If the same old, same old was being preached about Pagan everlasting tormenting Hell (and 3 headed - Gods of God) then where would this be so new and inviting? With the Good News, there was the glorious hope and salvation (for all). It would take a lot of very stern faith to believe in the Pagan view, as though it was really coming from the Father as he was known to be love.

Another thing is, if the Father is God then how can he be Gods of God, for he exist as one of the three Gods of God. There is something amiss in all this confusion and everyone everywhere within the Roman Empire (whole villages) converted to the faith? And these converted ones faced the most horrific deaths in the persecutions around them.

The early believers would not have the strong morale that they did, if they had to preach the way our modern faith says that we do. Remember the Pharisees were responsible for the Old Testament, Torah, and yet they were called vipers and snakes by Jesus. I can't say that I trust vipers and snakes or their ancestors with the infallible word of God in their Torah. There is one real conspiracy that exist before and after Jesus. It is that of the works of Satan within the tabernacles and churches. Vipers and snakes with the Torah and tares with the New Testament and world as a whole. What I believe is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was and is protected. His Gospel is infallible.

Praise God for his protection and gift to us of his son Jesus Christ.

 

[timbo3]

Because of the failure to properly render the Greek word pas contextually (that is translated by many Bibles as "all" instead of "all sorts" in Scriptures such as at John 1:7, 12:32, Romans 5:18 and 1 Timothy 2:4; see pg 491 of Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament; KJV more accurately renders pas at Matt. 4:23 as well at Matt. 5:11, 10:1 and 12:31 as "all manner"), some use this to "prove" that universal salvation is Biblical. These then to teach that no matter what a person does, he or she can be "saved".

The Bible is very clear that only a "few" of the masses of mankind that has existed over the course of human history, will gain salvation.(Matt 7:14) On the other hand, the majority of mankind are on "the road leading off into destruction".(Matt 7:13)

At Jeremiah 25, it says that "this is what Jehovah of armies says: ‘Look ! A calamity is spreading from nation to nation, and a great tempest will be unleashed from the remotest parts of the earth. And those slain by Jehovah in that day will be from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be mourned, nor will they be gathered up or buried. They will become like manure on the surface of the ground."(Jer 25:32, 33)

This is prophetic of the upcoming "war of the great day of God the Almighty" called Armageddon.(Rev 16:14, 16) And Paul words, quoting from Joel 2:32, that says that "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” greatly reduces those who really will be saved.(Rom 10:13)

Only a "few" are really ' calling on the name of Jehovah ", exercising faith in him. At Luke 13, Jesus says concerning gaining life everlasting: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door (that leads to life), because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24)

Daniel 12 says of Armageddon that "during that time ("the time of the end", Dan 12:4) Mi′cha·el (Jesus heavenly name that means "Who Is Like God ?") will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people (those ' calling on the name of Jehovah ', Acts 15:14 ) will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book."(Dan 12:1)

Only those "found written down in the book" of life will survive that cataclysmic event, just as only Noah and his family survived the global deluge because they exercised faith in Jehovah.(Gen 6:9; 2 Pet 2:5) All those outside the ark are forever destroyed.(Gen 6:7; 7:21; 2 Pet 3:6)

Revelation 19 describes the decimation of all mankind who reject Jehovah, failing to exercise faith as Jesus set the example, who "entrusted himself to the One (Jehovah God) who judges righteously."(1 Pet 2:23)

 

[Hezekiah Holbrooke]

If God says one thing and the Bible says God says another opposite thing, we have a problem, don't we? God uses the all will be saved and all will bow to Jesus. How is it that another section uses an errant Greek word for eternal, and was this done because it was stern and horrific (Pagan theatrics)? The early Christians, if they knew of this unusual and harsh passage (everlasting torment Hell), probably closed their minds to such nonsense & hypocricy, for they saw God in the better light, for they loved him and followed his beloved son. Universal salvation made Christ's sacrifice more perfect and glorious and it was following all of the scriptures that spoke that way (over 100 passages).

Surely, something isn't right when the Bible appears to be saying two opposite things. Does someone pick and choose, and so call their Father and Lord Jesus in such terrible terms (of a sad & torturous eternal punishment). No, this sad belief never existed with the merry, joyful, hoping and loving followers of Jesus (the primitive church). How could it? Why did the faith spread so easy? It was because universal salvation never existed within any form of Paganism, it was a concept that was foreign to planet Earth and the world. It was the glorious redemption of God' creation through his son Jesus. Everlasting tormenting Hell concept existed within Paganism and was a part of the World already. It wasn't foreign at all and it definitely was nothing new or cheerful. Did you know that entire sections of the Roman Empire were quickly converted to Christianity? If the same old, same old was being preached about Pagan everlasting tormenting Hell (and 3 headed - Gods of God) then where would this be so new and inviting? With the Good News, there was the glorious hope and salvation (for all). It would take a lot of very stern faith to believe in the Pagan view, as though it was really coming from the Father as he was known to be love.

Another thing is, if the Father is God then how can he be Gods of God, for he exist as one of the three Gods of God. There is something amiss in all this confusion and everyone everywhere within the Roman Empire (whole villages) converted to the faith? And these converted ones faced the most horrific deaths in the persecutions around them.

The early believers would not have the strong morale that they did, if they had to preach the way our modern faith says that we do. Remember the Pharisees were responsible for the Old Testament, Torah, and yet they were called vipers and snakes by Jesus. I can't say that I trust vipers and snakes or their ancestors with the infallible word of God in their Torah. There is one real conspiracy that exist before and after Jesus. It is that of the works of Satan within the tabernacles and churches. Vipers and snakes with the Torah and tares with the New Testament and world as a whole. What I believe is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was and is protected. His Gospel is infallible.

Praise God for his protection and gift to us of his son Jesus Christ.

Good luck and God bless. You will find ample "Christians" on here who are not at all above rewriting scriptures by changing the words, claiming the existing words are mistranslated, and by even saying the words really don't mean what even a third-grader would say they say.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Good luck and God bless. You will find ample "Christians" on here who are not at all above rewriting scriptures by changing the words, claiming the existing words are mistranslated, and by even saying the words really don't mean what even a third-grader would say they say.

As much as God planted his seed into his garden, the Devil planted the same of his own. I would say, "What a mess and confusion", but would not God know and say, "it will be glorious?" God will take the tares (weeds of Satan) and they will only help establish his own glory.

We are almost insignificant to the make of things, yet if we are of Christ, we will obey him and follow him to God, Jehovah. I would trade being right for being sincere, believing, trusting and following Jesus. Those actually following Jesus are standing upon the rock and aren't ashame of him and will not fall.

The wisest thing that an honest man can say, at times like these that we live in with tares and weeds all around us, is I don't know, yet for me, I will follow, believe in, obey and trust in Jesus Christ alone.

Thank you for posting.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Hello Timbo3,

I see that the ball bounces both ways. Trying to prove ourselves seems to be a by-product of our accepted faith environments. I am not sure that God minds, for we try out of our sincerity, however, I do believe that he will be interested in whether or not we are his, being that we have heard his son and followed & obeyed him. Following the premises of theological based denominations seeking their own righteousness, and may have filled-out their forms of correctness, yet I ask this "do they have faith?" The faith that Jesus gives is quite different than that of our searching the scriptures. The primitive faith is having a window into God's Kingdom and also having a freed heart and soul. Each step of the primitive faith is of Christ. Such a soul is protected by both the Holy Spirit and our Lord Jesus, not by the forms of correctness posing as truth. If tares have been growing all over the world for over 2,000 years, how is it that you trust what you think that you know, when you really should be trusting in only one thing & which truly is of God, his son Jesus (the only way to the Father). He said it first, not I.

Timbo3 thank you for your comments. Have a beautiful day in the Lord.

 

[barryatlake]

Stephen,

Jesus said: "the only way to the Father is through Him". This is always a question that is raised among people. What will happen to the rest of the world, to the billions of people who are not born Christian and who may not have even heard of Christ?

Yes, Christ did say that. At the same time, John states in the opening paragraph of his gospel that Christ is the true light that lightens every human being who comes into the world. That is, all of us as human beings are icons of God, and we are invited to unite with Him. It means all human beings can be saved through their conscience. It is not the Gospel that will save us but our conscience.
What does God require of us as stated in His Commandments? He tells us not to steal, not to kill, not to lie, to love our father and mother, to love other human beings. We don’t need to read all these commandments in the gospels in order to follow them. They are an integral part of everybodys true human nature.

Yes, the gospels do remind us of this natural tendency to follow the commandments that spring from within my own conscience. They are part of the nature of every human being, whether he is Christian or not. Therefore, all human beings can reach God without anything other than their conscience. They can attain the natural state of Adam and Eve before the Fall. Jesus even tells us that not everybody that says "Lord, Lord" will reach heaven.



“The Fathers state that conscience has the following characteristic: the more you listen and obey it, the more sensitive it becomes and the greater its capacity to reveal more truth. The more you ignore it, and the more you are indifferent to it, the coarser it becomes and the greater its tendency to distort reality. That means that even the most illiterate human beings who may never have heard of the Gospel can have the experience of God, assuming they guard and listen to their conscience, regardless of how refined it may be. Eventually their conscience will offer them experiences that will lead them closer to God. Abraham is a good example. He lived before Moses and the Ten Commandments and, of course, before the arrival of Christ. He was in fact an idolater who knew God only through his conscience.”

~Adapted from Kyriacos C. Markides, Inner River: A Pilgrimage to the Heart of Christian Spirituality

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Hello barryatlake,

Approaching the door, but going in? I don't think that anyone is going in except by the judge, Jesus. If they know God, then surely they know Jesus, whether they have actually heard about him or not. Those who say that they know Jesus, yet don't obey him, then they really don't know him, and he doesn't know them as well. Those who obey him, yet didn't know him, then he knows them, and that is what really counts!

Nobody of the human race, or any creature that exist, is going in, expect through the blood of the lamb, so making it on our own is really just a pile of words. To be there, we have to already have come from there, through Jesus & with him, we already have. Jesus has given us a way through himself to be reconciled and saved. Since he judges through his Father, then none is going in unless through the judgment of God by his son.

I know what you say and I believe that you say it well, yet it isn't possible to do the final step on our own, yet being accepted by God then also by his son, we are going to make it.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

From reading the section Origin of Endless Punishment in Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years , it seems that there is evidence of misunderstanding Jesus. This writing is listed below:

Origin of Endless Punishment.

When our Lord spoke, the doctrine of unending torment was believed by many of those who listened to his words, and they stated it in terms and employed others, entirely differently, in describing the duration of punishment, from the terms afterward used by those who taught universal salvation and annihilation, and so gave to the terms in question the sense of unlimited duration.

For example, the Pharisees, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement).

If we could hear Jesus directly, like going back in time, understanding his language, we may actually know what it was that he spoke, like his disciples did, since they were chosen by him and listened to him. Over the course of many hell believing leaders and lots of subtle changes, we have weeds right in the middle of our Bible and faith. Does their presence really alter the fruit of those of Jesus', no for they do believe in Him alone and obey & follow him! I believe that a part of the Good News, Gospel of Jesus, is missing. God has complete victory over sin, death and lost souls. The tide has turned forever, because of Jesus' victory. A continuing of hell somewhere isn't a full victory. The Good News is victory uncompromised and a wonderful hope and salvation for all. The time frame for creation into this victory is different. The least may go ahead of those who think that they should be first. Yet, all have a time to enter into their salvation through Jesus. They need to become as children to enter. They can.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I am not here to promote a new theology, book(s) or religion or denomination. I am trying to find our original faith (primitive faith directly understood of Christ). I personally believe that we can. I know that if we have it and follow true, then Yes, Jesus will find faith on Earth if he comes in our lifetime. However, our lifetime isn't when Jesus comes, but it is when his Father has decided that he comes, for Jesus says that even he doesn't know when his Father will tell of that day. I believe that day could be even hundreds of years in the future. I will (if God is permitting) write a book soon illustrating this possibility and why.

Be patient and endure for Christ, be within the great hope and live, really live within this faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I remember what in the Catacombs of Rome had in their Christian tombs, drawings of Jesus carrying a kid (baby goat) on his shoulders (saved). I can't but help to visualize that Jesus said sin aionion kolasin (age-long chastisement) instead of what the Pharisees said eirgmos aidios (eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment). It is as though this is one of the many small indications that Jesus really did mean for us to understand that his death was for universal salvation for all (completely accomplishing the Will of his Father). These small hints add up to what no one suspected to come; weeds were about to grow over this universal salvation known at the time to try and hurt God's message and Good News for the world. If we could just keep looking to find the original Good News and primitive faith believed of Jesus' teachings, it would be a great blessing to restore the world to its rightful understanding of God's Word.

The way of knowledge is to keep studying, looking, discussing, praying and being patient. Knowledge is slowly revealing itself. Under Orthodox and Unorthodox faiths, primitive faith isn't found, for it preceded them and has been forgotten & misunderstood. I will discuss, research & study, post and pray until, at least, that I come to a conclusion. I am already bias some in coming here, for I suspected that I would find the primitive faith quite different from what exist today within most of Christendom. I have always remembered the "all will bow before him" and "all creation will be saved" scriptures, and was quite confused with the worst than Satan beliefs of God's tormenting eternal Hell filled with revenge. For there to be no hypocrisy, Jesus tells us how to be the sons of God, why would he then tell us the opposite as God is bent on revenge worst than that Satan to roast souls over the fires of Hell alive and with consciousness forever?

When we first accepted Jesus and believed God, we must have thought little of Hell and a lot of forgiveness, love and hope from God, even our Father through Christ. Over the years and in many conversations with non-Christians, we find their distaste for what we briefly visited in our Christian faith: Hell, Vengeful tyrant God and Pagan sounding doctrine & theology. I could not but help to ponder this and wonder about how to resolve things to help preach the Word of Christ correcting to help others. It was very easy to spread the Gospel from the primitive faith during the church's beginning, but today it is hard to force-feed our badly evolved Gospel down the throats of others (they don't understand why we accept our crazy sounding faith (modern, not the more perfect primitive faith)).

I believe it would be enjoyable to preach universal salvation and a truly loving God and a perfect fulfilling sacrifice of Jesus Christ for a complete salvation & victory. If I could only find the truth of this. I will be here until I do.

 

[timbo3]

Hello Timbo3,

I see that the ball bounces both ways. Trying to prove ourselves seems to be a by-product of our accepted faith environments. I am not sure that God minds, for we try out of our sincerity, however, I do believe that he will be interested in whether or not we are his, being that we have heard his son and followed & obeyed him. Following the premises of theological based denominations seeking their own righteousness, and may have filled-out their forms of correctness, yet I ask this "do they have faith?" The faith that Jesus gives is quite different than that of our searching the scriptures. The primitive faith is having a window into God's Kingdom and also having a freed heart and soul. Each step of the primitive faith is of Christ. Such a soul is protected by both the Holy Spirit and our Lord Jesus, not by the forms of correctness posing as truth. If tares have been growing all over the world for over 2,000 years, how is it that you trust what you think that you know, when you really should be trusting in only one thing & which truly is of God, his son Jesus (the only way to the Father). He said it first, not I.

Timbo3 thank you for your comments. Have a beautiful day in the Lord.

Am I trying to prove myself ? Not at all. Rather, is it not a matter of trying to prove that Jehovah God is the One we should worship and have faith in to provide justice. Did not Jesus say to the Samaritan woman that "the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him ?"(John 4:23)

And did not Jesus tell Satan: "It is written (at Deut 6:13 and 10:20): "It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”(Matt 4:10) These are not my words but Jesus' who repeated what was spoken over 3,400 years ago by Moses.

So, when Jesus gave the illustration of the persistent widow seeking justice at Luke 18, was he not stressing the need to pray to Jehovah for justice, waiting on his timetable ? And when Jesus posed the question: "When the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth ?”, he posed it as to whether there would be those with the kind of persistent faith that the widow displayed, those pleading with Jehovah for real justice (which includes the crushing of all political governments by God's Kingdom, Dan 2:44) when "the Son of man arrives" at Armageddon.(Luke 18:8)

Habakkuk, who lived during the time of Jeremiah, wanted justice, so he asked: "How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, but you do not hear ? How long must I ask for help from violence, but you do not intervene ? Why do you make me witness wrongdoing ? And why do you tolerate oppression ? Why are destruction and violence before me ? And why do quarreling and conflict abound ?"(Hab 1:2, 3)

The persistence of the "widow" is not found among the churches of Christendom, for who among these are crying out to Jehovah like Habakkuk ?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Originally Posted by Stephen Kendall

Hello Timbo3,

I see that the ball bounces both ways. Trying to prove ourselves seems to be a by-product of our accepted faith environments. I am not sure that God minds, for we try out of our sincerity, however, I do believe that he will be interested in whether or not we are his, being that we have heard his son and followed & obeyed him. Following the premises of theological based denominations seeking their own righteousness, and may have filled-out their forms of correctness, yet I ask this "do they have faith?" The faith that Jesus gives is quite different than that of our searching the scriptures. The primitive faith is having a window into God's Kingdom and also having a freed heart and soul. Each step of the primitive faith is of Christ. Such a soul is protected by both the Holy Spirit and our Lord Jesus, not by the forms of correctness posing as truth. If tares have been growing all over the world for over 2,000 years, how is it that you trust what you think that you know, when you really should be trusting in only one thing & which truly is of God, his son Jesus (the only way to the Father). He said it first, not I.

Timbo3 thank you for your comments. Have a beautiful day in the Lord.

Am I trying to prove myself ? Not at all. Rather, is it not a matter of trying to prove that Jehovah God is the One we should worship and have faith in to provide justice. Did not Jesus say to the Samaritan woman that "the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him ?"(John 4:23)

And did not Jesus tell Satan: "It is written (at Deut 6:13 and 10:20): "It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.”(Matt 4:10) These are not my words but Jesus' who repeated what was spoken over 3,400 years ago by Moses.

So, when Jesus gave the illustration of the persistent widow seeking justice at Luke 18, was he not stressing the need to pray to Jehovah for justice, waiting on his timetable ? And when Jesus posed the question: "When the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth ?”, he posed it as to whether there would be those with the kind of persistent faith that the widow displayed, those pleading with Jehovah for real justice (which includes the crushing of all political governments by God's Kingdom, Dan 2:44) when "the Son of man arrives" at Armageddon.(Luke 18:8)

Habakkuk, who lived during the time of Jeremiah, wanted justice, so he asked: "How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, but you do not hear ? How long must I ask for help from violence, but you do not intervene ? Why do you make me witness wrongdoing ? And why do you tolerate oppression ? Why are destruction and violence before me ? And why do quarreling and conflict abound ?"(Hab 1:2, 3)

The persistence of the "widow" is not found among the churches of Christendom, for who among these are crying out to Jehovah like Habakkuk ?

Well, let me see. Many here, including JWs, believe in an earthly church made up of an organization that properly follows God and is the one true church and can prove this by the Bible and their own records. Some here, believe differently, including myself, that the church is not an earthly organization, but a spiritual one, and in which broadcast their faith and actions within every single corner of the globe, including the churches that they attend (by the way, they are your brethren and they obey Jesus and do not despise you, but accept and love you). This is impossible for you or your church to accept, but so is it also unacceptable by many within Christendom. What is wrong here?

I find division and indifference between brethren (those who have accepted Jesus and are trying to follow him) as wrong. Such intolerance will forever divide Christians. You have your reasons sounded in the Scriptures and they in their's. You call it discernment, but in reality, can you excuse yourselves from one of the greatest commands of Jesus, "being known by your love for your brethren" when you say you can see, but it would be better to say a truth that your sight isn't perfect nor is your Scripture-based organization? I can follow Jesus and love JWs as well as Eastern Orthodox Christians. I don't believe like any of them, except to follow & obey Jesus. You discount those independent of JWs as lost, since they haven't given themselves to your beliefs (the Truth). The very Truth that you hold is actually being held by many outside of JWs, with minor differences. Most of these are not judgmental or following church dogma, which I am afraid that JWs does by labeling theirs as absolute Truth. Unity should never be at the expense of not obeying and following Jesus. Why can I call you my brethren and many like me (perhaps in the millions), yet not a single JW can call me a simple follower of Jesus, without being in jeopardy of disfellowship? Is the person who can follow Jesus and obey in loving one another, even including all of his neighbors (enemies & friends); is such a person actually the real Christian here? JWs say it all in the name and the truth (truly following Jesus and obeying him and God). The Truth is perfection, but JWs are not, you know that is so, if you know your organization, but humbly you would admit its errors without losing face, as I would admit mine and any organization.

I said, amongst many things: "If tares have been growing all over the world for over 2,000 years, how is it that you trust what you think that you know, when you really should be trusting in only one thing & which truly is of God, his son Jesus (the only way to the Father). He said it first, not I. " JWs seem to say to trust their elders and leadership (those responsible for guidance, whom have divinely given authority as God's one true Church). Yet by saying this, you seem to avoid addressing the issue of Jesus' about the tares (weeds) in God's garden (the earth). JWs seem to say that they have the primitive faith of the early church, especially that they adhere to the Bible correctly. Yet, JWs fail to realize that the primitive faith never had the Bible, but they did have the real words of Jesus, however, I am taking for granted that the tares (weeds) had not yet overtaken them. What JWs don't see is that the Bible is not the Word of God (yet it surely was meant to be) (Jesus is) (the primitive faith knew the Word). The opening line of most denominations is that the Bible is the infallible perfect Word of God. Why is everyone making excuses when truth caves in their assumptions? I know the infallible Word of God, it is not only infallible, but it is alive, Jesus Christ, his son.

I told my sister this and tell you, that in following as you believe, that you will not be disappointed in Jehovah. However, I hope that you will be pleasantly surprised in Him. It is my faith and belief that anyone who hopes in Jesus will not be disappointed, even when they had made a poor showing (in their humility they will believe in themselves to have made a poor showing (hopefully when they really know the Truth); honesty / humility is what counts, the intent).

 

[Stephen Kendall]

When one works for God all of their life by their faith, yet another one coming late by awaking at the end of living, never even have done a work for him, the first may despise the second and demand more attention / reward. If someone, truly is working for God, then they are loving themselves, why would such a person despise this in the end? Loving yourself is only done when you love others and your Father & Jesus! Is this true? If you love yourself, you will feel pity for the one who came late and hardly experienced this. This sounds complicated and even contrary to the Word, but in reality, it may just be the Word!

 

[he-man]

When one works for God all of their life by their faith, yet another one coming late by awaking at the end of living, never even have done a work for him, the first may despise the second and demand more attention / reward. If someone, truly is working for God, then they are loving themselves, why would such a person despise this in the end? Loving yourself is only done when you love others and your Father & Jesus! Is this true? If you love yourself, you will feel pity for the one who came late and hardly experienced this. This sounds complicated and even contrary to the Word, but in reality, it may just be the Word!

Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. 8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the good man of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

Luke 12:1 In the meantime, when an innumerable multitude of people had gathered together, so that they trampled one another, He began to say to His disciples first, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. (2) For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

I have always been creative, deep thinker, thoughtful (yet at times a bull in a china shop) and do express my thoughts through a lifetime of collective memories & summations. I could quote scriptures, but instead like to put things into my own words. I get inspirations to say something which usually relates to our faith.

I don't want to prove my points through Scripture, but to have us to just think, use the minds that God gave us. We should be communicating with each other and not always quoting verses. What God has given is very good, but we are meant to be proof of his Word and live it out ourselves, and if he and his commands live within us, it is only natural that they speak through our own words, actions and thoughts.

 

[he-man]

I have always been creative, deep thinker, thoughtful (yet at times a bull in a china shop) and do express my thoughts through a lifetime of collective memories & summations. I could quote scriptures, but instead like to put things into my own words. I get inspirations to say something which usually relates to our faith.

I don't want to prove my points through Scripture, but to have us to just think, use the minds that God gave us. We should be communicating with each other and not always quoting verses. What God has given is very good, but we are meant to be proof of his Word and live it out ourselves, and if he and his commands live within us, it is only natural that they speak through our own words, actions and thoughts.

Is your real name Thomas Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, 'O you of little faith, why did you doubt?'

 

[timbo3]

I have always been creative, deep thinker, thoughtful (yet at times a bull in a china shop) and do express my thoughts through a lifetime of collective memories & summations. I could quote scriptures, but instead like to put things into my own words. I get inspirations to say something which usually relates to our faith.

I don't want to prove my points through Scripture, but to have us to just think, use the minds that God gave us. We should be communicating with each other and not always quoting verses. What God has given is very good, but we are meant to be proof of his Word and live it out ourselves, and if he and his commands live within us, it is only natural that they speak through our own words, actions and thoughts.

You are following in the pattern of Greek philosophers who justified their beliefs by teaching that human wisdom is "great". The word philosophy comes from the Greek word phi·lo·so·phi´a that means "love of wisdom". The apostle Paul wrote: "Look out that no one takes you captive by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ."(Col 2:8)

The Stoics and the Epicureans philosophers encountered Paul, calling him a "chatterer" (KJV "babbler") or literally a "seed picker" (Greek sper·mo·lo´gos) at Acts 17:18. Was Paul the "chatterer" or were not the Stoics and the Epicureans philosophers the chatterers, the ones making up stories ?

Those who carefully follow Jesus prove their points by means of Scripture and not just by ' using our minds ' like the Greek philosophers of Paul's day. It was because of listening to Greek philosophy that much of what the churches teach has came about.

The Encyclopedia Americana says that "Christianity, though hostile to pagan Greek and Roman culture, in fact absorbed much classical philosophy.” Among those who had a definitive influence on “Christian” thought, “Saint” Augustine (354-430 C.E.) holds an undisputed position.

According to The New Encyclopædia Britannica, Augustine’s “mind was the crucible in which the religion of the New Testament was most completely fused with the Platonic tradition of Greek philosophy (such as immortality of the soul); and it was also the means by which the product of this fusion was transmitted to the Christendoms of medieval Roman Catholicism and Renaissance Protestantism.”

Speaking of the extent to which Greek philosophy has influenced Christendom, author Douglas T. Holden stated: “Christian theology has become so fused with Greek philosophy that it has reared individuals who are a mixture of nine parts Greek thought to one part Christian thought.”

Neither Jesus nor Paul nor any of the apostles ever gave in for one moment to Greek philosophy, but totally relied on the Scriptures to provide "the truth".(John 8:44; 2 Tim 2:18) Paul wrote to Timothy that many "will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories."(2 Tim 4:4) And many are very good at making up stories.

Hence, those who "model" their lives after Jesus (1 Pet 2:21), ensure that what they say is backed by the Bible.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Reading into the section Whence Came the Doctrine?

Of Heathen Origin. in the book on Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years website, I found some interesting things about our Christian history. I can see why politically involved Christians don't want their boats rocked, especially having others check out such things about our faith. The primitive church was quickly losing their primitive faith, mostly through Paganism from Jews and Gentiles.

This section is given below:

Whence Came the Doctrine?

Of Heathen Origin.

When we ask the question: Where did those in the primitive Christian church who taught endless punishment find it, if not in the Bible?--we are met by these facts:--1. The New Testament was not in existence, as the canon had not been arranged. 2. The Old Testament did not contain the doctrine. 3. The Pagan and Jewish religions, the latter corrupted by heathen accretions, taught it (Hagenbach, I, First Period; Clark's Foreign Theol. Lib. I, new series.) Westcott tells us: "The written Gospel of the first period of the apostolic age was the Old Testament, interpreted by the vivid recollection of the Savior's ministry. * * * The knowledge of the teachings of Christ * * * to the close of the Second Century, were generally derived from tradition, and not from writings. The Old Testament was still the great store-house from which Christian teachers derived the sources of consolation and conviction." 9 Hence the false ideas must have been brought by converts from Judaism or Paganism. The immediate followers of our Lord's apostles do not explicitly treat matters of eschatology. It was the age of apologetics and not of polemics.10 The new revelation of the Divine Fatherhood through the Son occupied the chief attention of Christians, and the efforts seem to have been almost exclusively devoted to establish the truth of the Incarnation, "God in Christ reconciling the world unto himself." We may reasonably conclude that if this great truth had been kept constantly in the foreground, uncorrupted by pagan error and human invention, there would have been none of those false conceptions of God that gave rise to the horrors of medieval times,--and no occasion in the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries for the renascence of original Christianity in the form of Universalism. The first Christians, however, naturally brought heathen increments into their new faith, so that very early the doctrine of the annihilation of the wicked, or their endless torment, began to be avowed. Here and there these doctrines appeared from the very first, but the early writers generally either state the great truths that legitimately result in universal good, or in unmistakable terms avow the doctrine as a revealed truth of the Christian Scriptures. "Numbers flocked into the church who brought their heathen ways with them." (Third Century, "Neoplatonism," by C. Bigg, D.D., London: 1895, p. 160.)

At first Christianity was as a bit of leaven buried in foreign elements, modifying and being modified. The early Christians had individual opinions and idiosyncrasies, which at first their new faith did not eradicate; they still retained some of their former errors. This accounts for their different views of the future world. At the time of our Lord's advent Judaism had been greatly corrupted. During the captivity 11 Chaldæan, Persian and Egyptian doctrines, and other oriental ideas had tinged the Mosaic religion, and in Alexandria, especially, there was a great mixture of borrowed opinions and systems of faith, it being supposed that no one form alone was complete and sufficient, but that each system possessed a portion of the perfect truth. "The prevailing tone of mind was eclectic," and Christianity did not escape the influence.

It seems like as soon as the Christian Church started, elements outside of the Gospel were being planted in it. Influential leaders with these elements of their past were bringing into Christianity these Pagan seeds.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

The early church did not have great leadership as it did in the very beginning. There was a lot around to distort Christianity's development. Why did God allow this? Jesus explains in his parable:

Matthew 13:24-30Good News Translation (GNT)

The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The Kingdom of heaven is like this. A man sowed good seed in his field. 25 One night, when everyone was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 When the plants grew and the heads of grain began to form, then the weeds showed up. 27 The man's servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, it was good seed you sowed in your field; where did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘It was some enemy who did this,’ he answered. ‘Do you want us to go and pull up the weeds?’ they asked him. 29 ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because as you gather the weeds you might pull up some of the wheat along with them. 30 Let the wheat and the weeds both grow together until harvest. Then I will tell the harvest workers to pull up the weeds first, tie them in bundles and burn them, and then to gather in the wheat and put it in my barn.’”

If the weeds grew within our early faith (primitive faith?), did we lose it even early on? No, the seed of God of the Gospel can take root and grow within persons and they can grow and develop into the children of God being productive to make new seeds. It seems terrible that all this so-called knowledge of theologians, leaders and devout Christians may be part of the weeds, shame. The Gospel is really untouched and pure, but the surrounding themes are not part of faith in Jesus. There is enough damage by the weeds (tares) that the Gospel itself seems touched or changed, but the essence is still there: teachings & commands of Jesus Christ. So in every good seed is Jesus, though the soils to plant it in might be crowded by weeds, yet if you plant those seeds in the best ground that you can, they will make it. Our faith in Jesus (actually obeying Him) and the pure living Holy Spirit within us allow us to mature into bearing plants of his Word. If we don't obey Jesus, not having our seeds planted in good soil, then the weeds own the day (our lives). We would be fortunate to even be alive, let alone to bear fruit.

 

[olderguy]

This thread isn't about what I expected. But I've spent too much time reading to not leave a comment. My answer to the question of will Jesus find the kind of faith He wants when He returns is not enough of it.

I spent a lot of time reading the link that lead to the book by Charles Slagle. I didn't have to read all of it because I'm familiar with the confusion that lead him to write it. There's actually a very simple answer to Slagle's questions and the answer is Biblical if one is willing to see it. The answer is that after we accept Jesus we have to do our best to obey Him. Sure we won't succeed 100%. This happens in human issues too. But when we judge a person by human means we can't see the person's true intentions. We can only judge by results, and so a person fails. We can't assume another person tried his best because we know human nature tends to make us cut every corner possible. But God can see the intentions. God will know whether or not we tried as hard as we could to stop each sin. But there will still be sins we could have tried harder on and didn't. Slagle agonized over those sins putting us in hell. I also agonized over those thoughts for decades too, much as Slagle did. The answer is, unfortunately, part of a large religion that most Christians (including me) disagree with. But I have to agree with this idea. The answer is, a place after death, where God purges us of any evil left in us. This place won't have devils to try and make us believe we prefer to satisfy ourselves rather than God. And maybe there will be humans who still prefer themselves to God.

I find that hard to understand. If I could spend even a few earth days in Heaven, and in the presence of God, I don't think any sin would interest me any longer. I believe I can be in Heaven after death, but since I was never there, a few sins still influence me. What baffles me is Lucifer was there and he still chose himself over God's paradise. If angels could be so foolish as that, humans can too. God knows this all too well.

Earth is a great testing ground, but too many people still fall in the middle. The obvious answer is a spiritual middle ground. 1 Corinthians ch.3 mentions this, as well as something Jesus said in Mark. But I forget where. I'm sure there are more such references to this purging area that I don't know about.

This makes more sense to me than the complicated theology of Charles Slagle, or all the other Calv-Arminin theologies I've ever read.