Will Jesus find Faith when he returns?

[Stephen Kendall]

One of the biggest reasons for finding the primitive faith is to spread it. It worked in the beginning to expand the effects of people living their lives for Jesus and doing what he said. This was a remarkable change in society. It could happen again. Christians today hardly even know what Jesus said. Ask them what Jesus' commands were and see how many know.

We are having a serious problem in this world, as indicated by the video below coming out of today's news:

Wealthiest 1% will soon own more than rest of us combined, Oxfam says - CNN.com

It is talking about Income inequality in America. Will the rich obey Jesus and help the poor, give their wealth away to them? Of course not, why should they? The ones who call themselves Christians could just find a Jesus in the right church that says they don't have to really obey him that much and that they are doing just find and will most likely be saved. Yikes, the messages & commands of Jesus aren't understood, known, believed or preached. Just chose your flavor of Jesus and be happy, as long as the church gets its cut.

If the original faith was so motivating and convincing, shouldn't real Christians be trying to find it and spread it, especially today? Let us suppose that the original faith included eventual reconciliation for all souls, yet through the Day of Wrath. The lost souls had to pay for their own debts, since they didn't know and follow the commands of Jesus, yet after God's justice and their eon of punishment period, they would have a chance to find their way to Him and come into His Kingdom through Him. A repeat of punishment would most likely not be a problem, for who would want to go through it all again. A soul would learn no longer his evil ways, but seek the joy of God's, since his rebellion was just causing him to be thrown out of the light. Now, when this is being preached with Jesus' commands it would make a much different picture. We aren't robots, for God gives us the choice to be in His light or go our rebellous way in to the darkness beyond Him. Punishment would be for those who aren't changed to just go out of God's light into the outer darkness (led or thrown out). Nobody would be continually wanting to return there. Once is enough.

Preaching Jesus' commands with the now proposed God is Love, people may believe in such a just, caring and loving God. They may flock to Christ. Wealth-inequality could change through whole regions becoming His followers. Christian persecutions would most likely increase (probably by the rich) which would only increase the number of believers. It seems that persecutions are needed to start true Christianity's growth and expansion around the world. The only way that is going to happen is to really believe in Jesus and obey him, and most importantly know his real Gospel and given primitive faith. Any one on board?

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Please, people here in ChristianForums.com trying to threaten, warn, condemn or abase myself and others with bold scriptural passages remember that we don't answer to you or your opinions, and true faith allows us to have sincere fear of our God, not the kind that is forced, pushed or supposed upon us by others. I hope that I cleared that up.

 

[he-man]

This is the problem. You have and believe in a modern version of faith by your reliance on the New Testament (which never existed for the early churches),

I do not think Isa 66:16 is from the New Testament. "For with fire and with his sword the LORD will proceed to judgment on all humanity, and those slain by the LORD will be many."

Many of the things I quoted were from the O.T. Consider those who will not walk accordingly Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. 19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Like Sodom and Gomorrah
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

That is exemplified by Luke: Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
He did not ignore the Pharaoh of Egypt when he refused to recognize God and God destroyed all the firstborn males in Egypt.

Likewise Num 26:10 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.

Num 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Exo 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my Name is in him.
Just as Paul believed the account from the OT:
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three (sic four) and twenty thousand. Num 25:9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. They could not have searched the New Testament scriptures, they searched the O.T. scriptures. Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Is 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I want to know what it is that I accept and believe in, not the heresy of what I call modern tare-laden faith based on things that did not exist within the early very inspiring churches.

Then you better believe the Old Paths and adhere to them.

Will Jesus find faith on earth when he returns? If we have lost most of it, in time, it may vanish. You are trying to get me to accept what I have found in error. I trust Jesus and not the appearances of things laid out by man.

If you have found an error please enlighten me. Else the destroyer may return again....
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

LISTEN to what GOD says:
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Ps 118:23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

he-man,

I was making a general statement to past harsh reactions to my comments, not necessarily anyone's in particular.

God's Word is infallible, but not when man is in charge of taking care of it (New Testament). Everyone seems to believe that men throughout the last two thousand years have unbiasly taken perfect care of the New Testament not to change even a dot, though having to keep translating it from language to language. However in reality, bold persons who has enough courage to repent and admit that they had changed God's Word in the New Testament like Desiderius Erasmus are ignored, why, because they believe the New Testament is infallible and nobody has ever tampered with it, even if they say they have. Something doesn't sound very intelligent here. God gave us his gifts, such as faith and intelligence. Should we not use them. Faith is a done deal, if we believe in Jesus and obey him. Intelligence is a helping tool with the Holy Spirit to help us avoid pitfalls, as that of such things as man's copied, copied, copied, translated, translated, translated infallible perfect New Testament from many bias theologians and Christians, or other words man. Then there is the assumptions that it is preserved anyway by God. What is perfect is God and Christ, but the Bible is a great helping arm in our faith, but don't over rely on it, ask God & the Holy Spirit for guidance. I always read the Bible believing it, yet I go to Jesus first and not the scriptures, for we don't pray to a book, but to our living Father and our Lord Jesus.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

We all want to be saved and know of the guilt of our sins. Yet why is it hard to just follow Jesus? Man's builds cathedrals and palaces to God, but what of their hearts, are they following his son? The work of God isn't the designs of men, but they are the steps of Christ carrying his cross.

Why is it that being on here causes such a stir within some that I am putting a dent into their own perfectly laid out faiths? I am looking for mine, but I can't even imagine following a counterfeit. I don't care if 99% follow it, I want the pearl of Jesus alone. Surely, there are millions like me who don't settle for imitations. Who has the primitive faith here? Our Christian culture was predicted by Jesus to have tares growing within it and anti-Christs attacking it and also faking to be himself.

When I was instructed that I had to believe in Trinity at my beloved church years ago, I was puzzled for Jesus or none of his Disciples in the Bible ever mentioned this requirement. Now, I am told that I have to believe in an loving God who torments souls for eternity as revenge (this can't be justice, at least on any reasonable level). Then some tell me that their church believes in annihilation justice, sounds better, but not fulfilling the will of God or the sacrifice of his son; which is to accomplish his beloved Dad's Will, that none should be lost, not even one and that all of creation would be saved!

I come here trying to get people to open up and speak their own hearts, to help build through our efforts together what might be the primitive faith which seems to have been lost. But few think that it is and seemingly many believe that all is ok; then why would Jesus caution us about the tares, and his Disciples caution us about the anti-Christs, and our faith has become so ineffective; even in keeping its own unity and its own one faith? Admit it, we have lost that one faith, because of Jesus' spoken of tares and his Disciples anti-Christs prophecies. This is serious for our salvation and our purpose of reaching others. Why don't people care, do they really love God and love the lost? It is unfortunate that we don't have a sound recording of Jesus. It would greatly help, but the early believers did have word of mouth, before the New Testament existed. They loved the Torah (Old Testament) and Jesus' fulfillment and Gospel. They seemed blessed not to have man's theologies, the much later New Testament and our creature comforts that pampers our flesh away from God. They proudly and humbly took the steps of Christ, even when persecuted they would rather run to their deaths with songs and great encouragement to each other, then to look back as many of today would at their pampered and indifferent lifestyles, having second thoughts. Christians today are outstandingly involved in the world, their comforts, their rights and are concerned about how they appear to others being followers of Christ. They may not want to be too Jesusy, but rather more churchy with man's softer and more comfortable position, not much different than other worldly persons. Where is the attraction of the early church within our modern version with its watered down Jesus and enjoyable worldly living, which always gets fixed of its sins on Sundays by the church system (or Saturdays for some)?

If we went to China and met persecuted Chinese Christians, we would be much closer to understanding the early faith since they carry their own crosses and are distant from our modern Christian cultures. Hey, they have extremely large and unified churches (not denominations) (South Church and North Church, and even the state controlled Three Self Church are all in unity with each other. This is where we need to think and praise God, for we can't accomplish such a feat around the world with our weak separatist faiths. This Chinese movement is so empowered by the Holy Spirit that it wants to go Marco Polo's Silk Road toward the west to spread the Word in their primitive style faith to the world (right through the middle east). The Chinese government may hamper their vision from God, but just think what would happen the day after much constant training and preparations, that they do go and reach the middle East with Jesus like never before, willingly accepting their persecutions and deaths to honor Christ carrying their crosses with great joy and praises to God together! This is as much the early church as we will see in our pampered modern lives.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

May each serious Christian here visit the Chinese Christians to enrich their own faiths. It would be one of the most important vacations of a lifetime and a very spiritual meeting with these people. If I had the money, I believe that I would go, even with the communist looking over my shoulders while there. They would pay a huge price to meet with you and discuss our real faith of unity and love. You would only be deported if caught meeting the Underground Church. Fantastic for you, even for them, but you are the truly blessed one, (carry some Chinese Bibles, if you dare, they sure would deeply love them risking their lives to possess one or give it to others).

Our Bibles may have human interventions or small errors, but the Gospel and God's Word makes it through anyway. The Chinese Christians are proof of this. The tares and anti-Christs don't seem to have destroyed the primitive faith, but it is our own laziness to follow the steps of Jesus and carry our own crosses, to just obey him, for we seem to have chosen the world instead! Why would we make such a terrible decision? Now comes the tares and anti-Christs telling us what may be more pleasing to our human intellect allowing religiousness to fill us, and not the simple faith of Jesus and following him as the Chinese are. Many know the infinity of knowledge of the Bible & Christianity, but do they do as Jesus told them, or better yet do they even remember or care, are his commands & teachings on the back burner or still in the refrigerator, worst yet, in the deep freezer? Every moment of our life should be full of Jesus', not that of man's word, but absolutely Jesus' easy to understand Words and Gospel (spiritually understood with the Holy Spirit within us); as the Bible says no one will have to tell us about things for each one will know them for the Word of God is written & lives within their hearts.

Have a most wonderful day to all of you. Love you also timbo3 and heman, also Der Alter.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

A quick update on my health water fast. It is day 11 and my first mile stone. I feel much better. My feet are starting to feel and appear healthier. My blood pressure is much lower and normal, down from 165/100 to 124/77.

This fast has been hard from day 4 to day 9. After that, I have felt much better. I believe it is my unhealthy obese body that caused me so much unbelievable and unrelenting discomfort and misery during these days. I will try to make it to the next mile stone of 15 days. This fast is mostly for my feet (with gout?) as well as some of my other major problems. Being overweight is just wrong, as well as painful and careless. As Christians we can find the faith to overcome this problem.

Much of overweight is ignorance of foods, a lack of self control and over indulgence. I have enough history to realize some of my mistakes and will try to apply this knowledge. However, the gout(?) that I got with my increasing weight complicated my ability to control it. When I tried to exercise more, the gout would flame up in every step with pain and inflammation that caused awkward disfigurations and a lost of morale.

I don't suggest any here to seek water fasting for more than 3 days. This wouldn't help much in any major improvements for your health. To go beyond 3 days, you really should do this with the help and advice of a doctor, and his monitoring you along the way (he would need to be knowledgeable, (Dr. Joel Fuhrman would be a great source of help here)). The old school of medicine for perhaps thousands of years included water fasting to cure diseases. Today, doctors push pills, a little sad, but our flesh wants to be comfy.

Get out of your comfort zone and explore life, for that is indeed part of our real faith in Christ, obeying his beautiful laws of love, forgiveness and sharing our faith in him.

Time to finally get some rest and sleep. Good night to many here, will post again soon. Let us be unified in Jesus and not stand apart and away from each other. The purpose of the church is for us. It is like our spiritual home and faith together. Our fellowship is to unite the Words and steps of Christ into our being as one until we reach him. It fills us with his Word and the Holy Spirit satisfies our souls together. Praise God!

 

[timbo3]

timbo3,

Please tell me what you think universal salvation is?



Jesus was condemned by the religious authorities. Don't pick and choose what to say, just please tell me what you think universal salvation definition is that I might know what it is that you are accusing me of?

Universal salvation is the accepted view that all of mankind will be "saved" by Jesus ransom, that God's mercy will cover everyone, that he will grant amnesty to any and all. Some feel that there will be sudden emotional conversion by the masses to Jesus as their "savior".

One religious tract said many years ago: "There is just one thing that any one needs to do to get to heaven....that is, accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, surrender to Him as Lord and Master, and openly confess Him as such before the world." This makes it seem so simple to gain salvation, but the truth of the matter is that "few", which established at Matthew 7:14, will gain life everlasting because the "road" to life is "cramped" and the "gate narrow", in which "few" are willing to exert themselves through them.(Luke 13:24) The standards are very high so that most are not willing to measure up to Jehovah's holy requirements.

Jesus said: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."(Matt 25:31-33)

Thus, in the near future, Jesus will sit down to judge the nations, separating the "sheep", those who willingly submit to his rulership as God's appointed king, from the "goats", those who reject Jesus rulership over them.(Luke 19:27) At this point in time, this will lead directly into Armageddon where the vast majority of mankind will perish.(Rev 16:14, 16)

 

[he-man]

God's Word is infallible, but not when man is in charge of taking care of it (New Testament). Intelligence is a helping tool with the Holy Spirit to help us avoid pitfalls, as that of such things as man's copied, copied, copied, translated, translated, translated infallible perfect New Testament from many bias theologians and Christians, or other words man.

Where did you think the O.T. came from? Seventy men translated it in about 300 B.C. so your methodology is full of holes. You are correct that only God can reveal His word to whomever He chooses.

Ps 34:4,5 I sought the Lord, and he answered me; he delivered me from all my fears. Those who look to him are radiant; their faces are never covered with shame.

"God is a talking God and thus you must come to wrestle with Him you must wrestle with what He said" D A Carson

Marked and persistent fear that is excessive or unreasonable, cued by the presence or anticipation of a specific object or situation (e.g., death or eternal torment in an imaginary fire) litany of mea culpas and Prima facie evidence.

As we deal with problems in the biblical text, we must assume that it is accurate until proven otherwise by equally accurate, equally authentic, and equally ancient evidence. Exegetical problems most often arise due to our own ignorance rather than any fault in the text itself. Ignorance should never be an excuse to emend the text in order to make it understandable to the modern western mind.

Like the unbelievable excuses of William B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1988), 3: “The many rare words and textual disturbances make the Hebrew text of Job one of the most obscure in the OT. The ancient versions testify to the fact that many passages were unintelligible even to the earliest translators.”

Job clearly states that it was by the Hand of God that tested him and not a"fallen Satonic angel", but by an angel acting as a prosecutor for God.
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
Please consider what FEAR means:
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has torment, and he that fears has not been made perfect in love.
G5401 Phobos (Ancient Greek: Φόβος, pronounced [pʰóbos], meaning "fear" or "terror") is the personification of fear

A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος, Phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is a type of anxiety disorder, usually defined as a persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational.

Do you read between the lines or do you read all of what is said?

Reading Between the Lines:
One example of this fallacy is the trinitarian interpretation This fallacy falls into the category of logical fallacies that Carson discusses in Exegetical Fallacies when a word or phrase triggers off an associated idea, concept, or experience that bears no close relation to the text at hand, yet is used to interpret the text.
Exegetical Fallacies, Common Mistakes Every Student of the Bible Must Avoid William D. Barrick

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Universal salvation is the accepted view that all of mankind will be "saved" by Jesus ransom, that God's mercy will cover everyone, that he will grant amnesty to any and all. Some feel that there will be sudden emotional conversion by the masses to Jesus as their "savior".

No, the lost are sent to their remedial punishments, then after their eon (would feel like an eternity) judgement, God's determination of each individual, they would have a place of determination, if needed, to either accept God & Christ or they commit sin and folly and go back for another eon, sooner or later (be born again under Christ)(I could see your annihilation of mercy killing possible, if ones like Satan and his elite just aren't able to change, yet I actually believe in everyone eventually would be coming to Jesus).

Here is some of what I have stated in a nutshell: Oh My God! Is This Universalism?Â[bless and do not curse] Are you a Universalist?

One religious tract said many years ago: "There is just one thing that any one needs to do to get to heaven....that is, accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, surrender to Him as Lord and Master, and openly confess Him as such before the world." This makes it seem so simple to gain salvation, but the truth of the matter is that "few", which established at Matthew 7:14, will gain life everlasting because the "road" to life is "cramped" and the "gate narrow", in which "few" are willing to exert themselves through them.(Luke 13:24) The standards are very high so that most are not willing to measure up to Jehovah's holy requirements.

Yes, the requirements will never change, so few will make it in this life. With your concept of resurrection and a final chance of being saved by Jehovah, those deemed worthy for this chance will either meet this mark or be annihilated. Eventual reconciliation (same) goes a different way to accomplish the much harder will of God, but does stay to the same high standard, except when resurrected, they are judged individually and given sentences, remedial prison (hell), for their crimes to be carried out every last drop, then they have a place to try and learn of Jesus & God again, when done by God's own time period, they again are weighted as meeting those high standards or not, if they don't, the process should start again (I personally could see mercy annihilation by God, if they just can't be born again).

Jesus said: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left."(Matt 25:31-33)

Yes, but in the Catacombs of Rome, Christians who were buried there on occasion had their tombs with a picture of Jesus carrying a young kid goat instead of a young lamb. They seem to be suggesting that Christ cared for the goats just as he would the lambs. There are other things to suggest that the earlies Christians believed the Jesus would save all, (eventually). I don't know, but it is my desire that God would try to go this far. I don't demand it, but do hope in this. I really don't want to preach this, but I can't preach other things that I don't believe in. I came here to hear what people say. Nobody really seems to step forward with hardly a thought towards eventual reconciliation (universal salvation).

Thus, in the near future, Jesus will sit down to judge the nations, separating the "sheep", those who willingly submit to his rulership as God's appointed king, from the "goats", those who reject Jesus rulership over them.(Luke 19:27) At this point in time, this will lead directly into Armageddon where the vast majority of mankind will perish.(Rev 16:14, 16)

I could not imagine God wanting me if he is as many believe of him. For my belief of God as being extremely patient and good to the core, may be offense to the God that most of Christendom preaches from their incorruptible Bibles. I guess that God would simply do away with a nonconforming person as I am, especially since I told others of my faith, even preaching it. However, if the earliest Christians did the same and even were persecuted for spreading their faith, then at least I would have company. I love God and cannot imagine Him as either of Christendom's basic ways of viewing him (eternal tormenting hell or annihilation). I believe that Jesus' sacrifice is much larger and glorious than saving just a fraction of God's creation and of his Will, that all would be saved. This very complicated determination for each soul is more inline to the fascination, complexity and awesomeness of who he is. God who does that is truly worshiped and deeply loved by all, hopefully even by the extreme lost as Satan or his elite.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Thank you for posting he-man,

Once this thread is saturated and my thoughts aren't but one, as they became over Trinity years ago, I will most likely take my already bias position that I had before its start. I have always believed in eventual reconciliation, but never saw it laid out as in Universal Salvation University

absolute assurance in jesus christ

and other websites. The internet is opening communications and interesting fellowships.
I am not worried about the OT, for it can be 100% accurate. I am very concerned about the New Testament, yet seeing what is happening in China as I posted yesterday, I believe it is sufficient to keep people actually with the primitive faith, even today, interesting, but I believe true. What is holding the rest of us back? I guess it is our tares, comfort, ignorance, complacency, lack of real persecutions, denominations (41,000 divisions, outside of the churches, may be quite a few within the church also), indifferences and worldliness. We can be one church just like the Chinese, but we have to quietly conform to His love and ways. We have to be known by our love for one another. This doesn't sound like our tare-laden manifests within Christendom. The Chinese can do it and are doing it, we just can't, right? Wrong, I can and do and will continue. Will anyone else?

I am a bit too sleepy to continue. Have a wonderful day in the Lord.

 

[FredVB]

There is indeed want of more love in churches such as the ones I have been to, even these otherwise right for going to with the right gospel. The model of church with the love acted out, for which early believers were known, is the original one, under the apostles who had been with Christ personally and been taught by him, with the thousands of them still acting as a family with that love staying in unity, though certainly at the start there must have been some different understandings with more remaining to be learned. It is not impossible for a church, they came to do that and quickly, and churches might do that now, I have yet to learn that there is any such church, still. There is the wider surrounding culture that distracts any from that. We who are believers can still be instruments for change towards greater unity in love in the faith.

That all would come to being fully restored to relationship with Yahweh God would need that assurance shown in passages in the Bible. Terms shown such as perishing don't help establish that. What I would find in the Bible would help my understanding more than my own thinking in matters like that.

Health is important for all in any case. Eating right is relevant and I can say things for that. I can say I know feet need some relief from footwear for benefit.

 

[timbo3]

Stephen Kendall,

My first notice is that you never use the Bible, but just give your own personal opinion, as if that has merit, which it does not. Now on to the point being presented. Jesus identified that there are only two groups, "sheep" and "goats". The "sheep" will get everlasting life and the "goats" everlasting death. There is no remedial punishment for the "goats", for these ones have shown the personality of a literal goat, that of being stubborn and unteachable by Jehovah God and deserving of destruction.

On the other hand, the "sheep" are those who have allowed themselves to be "taught by Jehovah" so to be "meek".(John 6:45; Isa 54:13) These have put on the "new personality" that patterns itself after Jehovah.(Eph 4:22-24) But even God has limits of how far his love extends, for his love is not unconditional.(see Gen 6:3 regarding the people in Noah's day)

The apostle Peter said that "Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."(2 Pet 3:9) Jehovah God would wish that everyone ' attains to repentance ' but that is not realistic nor true.

He realizes that the vast majority of mankind will seek to remain on the 'spacious road that leads off into destruction.'(Matt 7:13) Jesus did not say that these ones would receive "remedial punishment", but "destruction".(Jesus used the Greek word apoleian that means "a destroying, utter destruction", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament)

Only a "few" (Greek oligoi meaning "puny"[ Strong's Concordance] as well as "little, small, few" [Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament]) would submit to Jehovah's rulership and be given life without end for their unswerving loyalty.

Jesus gives a contrast between the "sheep" who assist his "brothers" and those who do not at Matthew 25 (verses 34-45) and are thus labeled as "goats". Then at Matthew 25:46, he then says of those who fail to assist his spiritual "brothers": "These will depart into everlasting cutting-off (Greek kolasin, that means "lopping off, pruning", as well as "restraint" and "punishment") but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

Hence, Jesus identifies that there are only "two options", that of "everlasting cutting-off " or eternal death (destruction) which most will receive or "everlasting life" which only a "few" will be granted. I will no further respond to any more of your contents, having said what is needed.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

timbo3,

You are using what the early believers did not have, the New Testament. That may explain why the early believers thought Jesus would actually save the kid goat (carrying it on his back in pictures of the Catacombs of Rome), and it may explain why you are off base with their beliefs. They only had Jesus' words, a few letters written to share, and the Torah, as well as shared their statements of faith (none which were derived from the New Testament).

If whole regions of the Roman Empire were converted to Christianity, and Rome killed them out, then you are saying that few are saved and believed (worthy). How is that? The early faith was highly effective. Today's faith is not the same and it isn't very effective. Did the New Testament mess up things, because it could be inaccurate and altered by theologians trying to make sure that people understood their own thought of who God was? You can not think outside of the envelope, because the envelope is your total religion. I am a deep thinker that constantly read the Bible (mostly the NT) and research all for the real truth of God. I won't battle with scriptures as most do here and else where. I want to talk and communicate as humble souls before our Father. I know that you don't really understand me and probably feel sorry for me being rather radical. What do you think of all the simple human conversed parables of Jesus. He spoke for us to hear. He also used references to the scriptures. I do use scriptures at times, but prefer not to start scripture wars. I want us to talk as just humble brothers before our God. That is extremely hard for religious Christians, but for confident humble and caring brothers of Christ, it isn't.

I hope this helps, but I am fearing that a whole lot of Christians are lost in their scriptural world and really can not dare to see their own tares wrapped around themselves. They don't even believe there are any. This is why we have divisions and cult like unity. Honest, confident and humble Christians don't have to be religious to their Daddy in Heaven, they just have to know and obey their Lord Jesus Christ. They are free to think and they don't lose their faiths for having this unique relationship with their Father in his big family. If I make it, I will volunteer for His Will of eventual reconciliation of all his creation. Below is a very small amount of the reasons that I believe in this faith. Here is your scriptural verses that seem missing.

Acts 3:21 tells us God has promised through all His holy prophets that He will restore ALL things. Furthermore, both Old Testament and New Testament writers and prophets tell us:

· that all earth’s families will be blessed through Christ, Abraham’s “Seed” (Gen. 12:3, Acts 3:23, Rom. 4:13). Furthermore, according to Galatians 3:8, this promised blessing means that all earth’s families will be turned from their sins; justified and set right with God;

· that success or failure at keeping God’s law has no bearing on whether or not this promised blessing will finally be bestowed, for the law cannot cancel this covenant (Gal. 3:17-21);

· that all earth’s families, therefore, will remember the Lord, turn to Him and worship Him (Ps. 22:27-28);

· that all flesh will bless His name forever and sing His praise (Ps. 145:21; 66:3-4, Rev. 5:13);

· that His tender mercies are over ALL His works, and ALL His works shall praise Him (Ps. 145:9-10);

· that God’s anger is momentary but His mercy is everlasting (Ps. 103:8-10; 136, Micah 7:18);

· that mankind shall be blessed in Christ (Ps. 72:17);

· that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess and give thanks to the Lord. Furthermore, they will swear to Him and oath of allegiance and give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. And this will bring glory to our loving Father. (Isa. 45:21-24, NKJV, also see the Amplified Version; Phil. 2:9-11);3

· that our Tender Father of all Compassion is not pleased or glorified with mere lip service. (Matt. 15:8, 2 Cor. 1:3-4);

· that no one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3);

· that God’s will and purpose must come to pass and no one can restrain Him. For He works ALL things according to His will (Ps. 33:10-11, Prov. 19:21; 21:1, Ecc. 3:1,17, Dan. 4:34-35, Eph. 1:11);

· that His will and good pleasure and purpose is to unite ALL creation in Christ (Eph. 1:10; 2:9-10);

· that His Word will not return void but accomplish His desire, pleasure and purpose (Isa. 45:23; 46:11; 55:11);

· that through His death on the cross, Christ will draw all mankind to Himself. For Gabriel announced that Christ our Savior shall be glad tidings of great joy to ALL people (John 12:32-33, Luke 2:10);

· that BECAUSE God created all things for His pleasure, He is worthy of all power, honor and praise (Rev. 4:11);

· that for this reason Christ descended into Hades and proclaimed the gospel to the dead, specifically Noah’s disobedient generation—so they could be judged in order that they might live by God’s Spirit (1 Pet. 3:19; 4:6);

· that Christ, our Good Shepherd, who preached the gospel to Noah’s generation, is the same yesterday, today and forever. Thus, we can rest assured that He will fulfill the redemptive plans of God’s heart for ALL generations (Ps. 33:11, Heb. 13:8);

· that God has given Christ ALL things (Matt. 11:27; 28:18, Luke 10:22, John 3:35; 13:3; 17:2, Eph. 1:22, Heb. 1:2; 2:7-8, 1 Pet. 3:22);

· that Christ will accomplish His Father’s will and lose nothing of all He’s been given (John 6:37,39; 17:2, Heb. 10:7,9);

· that the Lord has spoken it and He will accomplish it, that He has purposed it and will also perform it (Isa. 46:11);

· that in the last days God will pour out His Spirit on ALL mankind, and whoever calls on the Lord’s name will be restored and saved. And as has been shown, all will not only call on the Lord’s name, but all will swear allegiance to Him and offer Him thanks (Joel 2:28-32, Acts 2:16-38);

· that ALL—whether righteous or unrighteous—will be resurrected. And according to Paul, this provides good reason to hope in God (Acts 24:15-16);

· that just as Adam’s trespass brought condemnation on all people—so also—Christ’s act of righteousness was justification that brings life to all people. For as through Adam’s disobedience “the many” were made sinners—so also—through Christ’s obedience “the many” will be made righteous (Romans 5:18-19);

· that therefore where sin abounded, grace abounded much more! (Romans 5:20);

· that the whole family4 in heaven and earth is named after our Father. For we are all His offspring. Thus He is above all, through all, and in all (Amos 9:12, Acts 17:28, Eph. 3:14-15; 4:6);

· that Christ has ascended to fill ALL things (Eph. 4:10);

· that God’s mercy triumphs over judgment. For it is His tender mercy that governs His judgment (Ps. 62:12, Jam. 2:13);

· that the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Messiah (Dan. 7:14,27, Rev. 11:15);

· that the Lord has made bare His holy arm (strength!) and all shall see His Salvation (Isa. 52:10);

· that righteousness and praise shall spring forth before all nations, and everlasting joy shall come to them (See all of Isaiah 61);

· that He Who is Sovereign Holy Love will have mercy on those who were not His people. He will say to them, “You are My people!” And they shall say, “You are my God!” (Hosea 2:23);

· that Sovereign Holy Love will raise from death those who were not His people. He will thus be the Plague and Destruction of death—and Hades (Hos. 13:13-14);

· that Paul therefore could joyfully shout, “O death, where is your sting? O Hades where is your victory?” (1 Cor. 15:54-55);

· that our Good Shepherd will feed His flock, the sheep of His pasture. He shall be Peace and His name shall be great worldwide (Mic. 5:4);

· that the Lord will rise up in plunder. He will pour out the fire of His jealousy. Then He will restore to the peoples a pure language, so they all may call on Him in unity (Zeph. 3:8-9);

· that all things came through Christ and are made for Christ and will finally be subject to Him. For He has tasted death for EVERYONE. (1 Cor. 15:25-28, Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:2; 2:8-10, Rev. 4:11);

· that God is reconciling ALL to Himself through Christ’s cross (John 12:32, 2 Cor. 5:18-19, Col. 1:15-20);

· that Authentic Love reveals itself, not only in words, but in deeds done in integrity, and God’s ever-active love never ceases or fails (1 John 3:18, 1 Cor. 13:8);

· that Christ will be satisfied that God’s will and pleasure has prospered in His hand through His death on the cross (Isa. 53:10-11);

· that God’s will is that none should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9);

· that God is the Savior of ALL people, especially (not exclusively) of those who believe. These things prescribe and teach (1 Tim. 4:9-11);

· that through His love-sacrifice Christ, the Lamb of God, has put away sin—the sin of the world (John 1:29, Heb. 9:26, 2 Cor. 5:19);

· that ALL is from and through God and must return to Him, for God desires all to be saved, and this will be confirmed in due time. Again we recall how God’s Word will not return void but will accomplish all He desires. (Isa. 55:11, Romans 11:32-36, Heb. 2:10, 1 Tim. 2:4-6, Rev. 4:11);

· that Christ, through His church, will eventually fill all things so God will become all—not merely in some—but in ALL (1 Cor. 12:6, 15:28, Eph. 1:22; 4:10, Col. 3:11);

· that Christ will reign over the nations and they shall hope in Him (Isa. 11:1-11, Romans 15:12);

· that the earth is the Lord’s in all it’s fullness and those who dwell therein. So Christ will inherit the nations and all He has made will worship Him (Ps. 1:8; 24:1; 83:8; 86:9, 1 Cor. 3:11; 12:6, Rev. 5:13);

· that the Father has given His Son dominion over the works of His hands (all of which shall praise Him). And He has put all things under His feet (Ps. 8:6; 145:9-10);

· that our Lord’s Word that He will fulfill His purpose stands firm and is forever settled in Heaven. His faithfulness endures to all generations (Ps. 119:89-90);

· that our Father does whatever pleases Him (fulfills His pleasure) in Heaven and earth and all the deep places (Ps. 135:5-6, Eph. 1:9-11);

· that in one passage the declaration occurs twenty-six times that God’s mercy endures forever (Ps. 136);

· that God’s prophetic Word (which cannot return void) is, “Let everything that has breath praise the Lord!” (See all of Ps. 150.);

· that in the last days all nations shall flow into the Lord’s house (Isa. 2:2);

· that Christ the Savior of all men, our Trustworthy Good Shepherd, will not fail. Neither will He be discouraged until He establishes justice (salvation) in the earth (Isa. 42:4, Matt. 12:18-21);

· that Christ is a Covenant (Promise!) and a Light to all who are spiritually unenlightened, who weep under the shadow of darkness. He is to free them from idolatry’s prison. For God will not share His glory with graven images (Isa. 42:6-9, Luke 1:78-79);

· that the Lord will reduce to nothing ALL the gods of the earth! (Zeph. 2:11);

· that the crooked places (not merely some crooked places) shall be made straight. And all flesh shall see the Lord’s Salvation (Isa. 52:10, Luke 3:4-6);

· that God has raised mankind up in righteousness and will direct all his ways (Isa. 45:11-13);

· that our Lord’s Word and irrevocable call is, “Look to Me all you ends of the earth and be saved!” (Isa. 45:22);

· that God—who is Holy Love Unfailing—receives no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18:23; 33:11). So our Good Shepherd searches for each of His lost sheep until He finds them. For all earth’s inhabitants—bottom line—are God’s people, the “sheep” of His pasture (Ps. 96; 100, Ezek. 18:23-32, Luke 15:4-7);

· that the heathen—the nations—will be glad and sing for joy. For our Strong Deliverer shall righteously judge the poor and govern the nations. All the ends of the earth shall reverence Him! (Ps. 67);

· that the Lord executes righteousness for all the oppressed (Ps. 103:6). Therefore He came for this purpose: to destroy the devil’s works—which include all satan’s lies that have alienated hearts from God (1 John 3:8, Col. 1:21, NJKV);

· that God’s covenant with Abraham, which Christ has come to fulfill, is immutable and unchanging. Thus, it is a hope and anchor for our souls—steadfast and sure (Romans 15:8-12, Heb. 6:13-20);

· that the Lord will speak peace to the nations. His Kingdom shall be to the ends of the earth (Zech. 9:10);

· that from the sun’s rising to its going down, the Lord’s name will be great among the gentiles. So that in every place incense and a pure (not forced and reluctant) offering will rise before him (Mal. 1:11);

· that Christ declares His purpose in coming to earth is to seek and save (restore) that which was lost. And again, we recall how our Lord’s Word tells us that He will fulfill His purpose (Matt. 18:11, Luke 19:10);

· that our Lord and His church (His first born, co-heirs) possess the keys to death, hell and the grave. The keys to God’s Love Kingdom (Matt. 16:19; 18:18, John 14:12; 20:21, Romans 8:16-17, 1 John 4:17, Rev. 1:18);

· that our Lord and His firstborn co-heirs will conquer “the strong man,” satan. They will take away all his armor and confiscate his booty! (Luke 11:21-22, Romans 8:16-23,32, Eph. 1:18,22-23);

 

[Stephen Kendall]

· that after our Lord’s visit and ministry among them, the Samaritans were convinced that Christ is the Savior of the world (John 4:42). (When will all of us Christians be convinced?);

· that our Lord declares that He gives (not merely offers) life to the world (John 6:33);

· that He clearly states His purpose in coming to earth is to save the world (John 12:47);

· that Israel will bind itself to the Lord with an everlasting covenant that cannot be canceled. For God’s calling and gifts cannot be revoked. Hence, all Israel and all the world will be saved. Thus, the Lord will accomplish and fulfill all His pleasure—His good pleasure—for ALL things are of Him, through Him and TO Him (Jer. 50:5, Romans 11:8-12,26-29,32-36, John 4:42, 1 John 4:14);

· that to the Lord who hears prayer, all flesh will come (Ps. 65:2);

· that Christ therefore bids us pray to our Father, “Your will be done on earth even as it is (universally done!) in Heaven” (Matt. 6:10);

· that the earth will be full of the revelation of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. For the nations will seek Him (Isa. 11:9-10, Ps. 72:18);

· that the lake of (God’s purifying) fire lasts, not for eternity, but until the ages of the ages (clearly stated in the original language of Scripture5). Thus it will last until the fullness of the times when God unites all in Christ (Eph. 1:10, Rev. 21:8, 20:10,15);

· that God’s fire is spiritual not literal. For our Heavenly Father would never dream of subjecting His own offspring to such an atrocity as torture by literal burning6 (Jer. 19:5, Luke 9:54-56);


· that God Himself is a Consuming Fire. He is like a refiner’s fire and will also purge His priesthood people. Thus they will offer Him pure offerings, Thanksgiving offerings included (Ps. 116:17, Mal. 3:2-3, 1 Thes. 5:18, Heb. 12:29);

· that God’s judgments, however severe, are always just—not cruel and vindictive. For, according to Scrip-ture, the Lord does NOT cast off forever (Ps. 62:12; 67:4; 96:11-13; 119:75, Lam. 3:31, John 5:22-23);

· that the Father has committed all “judgment” to the Son—so that—ALL may honor both Him and the Father (John 5:22-23). Therefore for this very purpose these who have done evil will come forth in the “resurrection of judgment”: so that Christ will lead all to repentance and fulfill His Father’s will and purpose that He draw all people to Himself. Thus our Good Shepherd will lose nothing of all His Father has given Him, and all therefore will honor the Son just as they honor the Father (John 5:29-30).

· that our Good Father will destroy death (1 Cor. 15:26, 2 Tim. 1:10);

· that God and Christ’s Bride, the New Jerusalem, will tabernacle with MANKIND. And He will wipe away all tears, and ALL death, sorrow and pain will pass away (Isa. 25:7-8, Rev. 21:4);

· that He makes all things new. For as in Adam all die, even so, in Christ all shall be made alive (Isa. 25:7-8, Romans 5:18, 1 Cor. 15:22, Rev. 21:4-5);

God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as innumerable as the sand grains on the seashores and as plentiful as the stars in the heavens! For all who have faith in Christ, according to Scripture, are descendants of Abraham (Gen. 22:17-19, Romans 2:28-29, Gal. 3:6-7, Rev. 7:9). So Christ’s ultimate “harvest” of human souls will be of such magnitude that no man can number. What is now called “the church” is only a kind of firstfruits of that harvest (Jas. 1:18).

Thus, the writer to the Hebrews calls God’s covenant with Abraham a sure anchor for the soul. For it enters in behind the veil (into the holiest of holies) where Christ offered His blood for the sins of all humanity (Heb. 6:19).

How can we anchor our souls? As Christians, how can we anchor our mind, will and emotions to possess a solid sense of IDENTITY And a good reason for being unless we can rely on Christ’s faithfulness to fulfill God’s covenant with Abraham? The Scriptures tell us that this covenant is an anchor—steadfast and sure! Why is this so? Because this covenant assures us that ALL humanity will be blessed in Christ!

So why do so many Christians feel insecure in God’s love? One problem is the unscriptural tradition that most people will be lost forever—that only the fittest will survive in God’s economy!

The unbiblical tradition that God brought us into being to respond to the question, “Where will you spend eternity?” is another problem. But that is not the message of the Good News! The Biblical message is, “Repent! For the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!” (Matt. 4:17). Nowhere in the New Testament do we find the glad tidings proclaimed in terms of, “Where will you spend eternity?” The message, “Choose this day whom you will serve” (Josh. 24:15), is Scriptural. “Where will you spend eternity?” is not a Biblical concept. Pure and simple: God created all of us for His pleasure. He did not put us here “on probation” so we could choose our eternal destiny! God has already planned that all of us will be drawn to Christ and unified in His love.

Another unbiblical tradition that keeps many of us from having a solid sense of identity and a good purpose for being is the tradition that people who die in sin or while unconverted will never be brought to repentance. And why? Because they failed to recognize their “chance” to exercise sufficient wisdom to “seize the moment” (so tradition would have us believe). But is that what the Scriptures really teach? Are we saved, not by God’s grace, but by chance—or by our cleverness to recognize our “chance” before it’s “eternally too late”? If so, will most flesh sing God’s praise and bless His name forever while agonizing from an endless hell? If that describes the final scenario our Loving Creator has in mind, how is Abraham’s covenant a sure anchor for the soul? What hope does Abraham’s covenant offer? Where is our Lord’s tender mercy?

The Bible says that it is appointed to men once to die, and after that the judgment7 (Heb. 9:27-28). It does NOT Say after death all hope is gone! Thus, we see that:

· Sodom’s fiery judgment is “eternal” (Jude 7)—until—God “will restore the fortunes of Sodom” (Ez. 16:53-55);

· Israel’s “affliction is incurable” (Jer. 30:12)—until—the Lord “will restore health” and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

· The sin of Samaria “is incurable” (Mic. 1:9)—until—the Lord “will restore . . . the fortunes of Samaria.” (Ez. 16:53);

· Ammon is to become a “wasteland forever” and “rise no more” (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will “restore the fortunes of the Ammonites” (Jer. 49:6);

· An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation “forever”—until—the tenth gener-ation (Deut. 23:3);

· Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were “everlasting”, that is—until—they “were shattered” (Hab. 3:6);

· The fire for Israel’s sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be “perpetual”—until—Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13);

· God’s waves of wrath roll over Jonah “forever”—until—the Lord delivers him from the large fish’s belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17);

· Egypt and Elam will “rise no more” (Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will “restore the fortunes of Egypt” (Ez. 29:14) and “restore the fortunes of Elam” (Jer. 49:39).

· “Moab is destroyed” (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord “will restore the fortunes of Moab” (Jer. 48:47);

· Israel’s judgment lasts “forever”—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).

· So, narrow is the way to life and few find it—until—Christ and His church confiscate the “strong man’s” booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21-22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24-28);

· God is now calling out “a people for His name”—an “elect” or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen—until—the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore “David’s tabernacle” so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the church is the first born, the beginning—until—in ALL (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11-12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14-18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1:18).

· All manner of sin will be forgiven in this AGE as well as in the AGE (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God’s Spirit—until—such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32; 18:11,21-22, Eph. 1:9-11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18-20).

· God’s wrath has come upon Israel “to the uttermost”
(1 Thess. 2:16). So there is a gulf between “the rich man in purple” (Royal Covenant “Son”, Israel) and the saved gentiles (Lazarus) which no man can cross—until—Christ Himself crosses it to bring His promised restoration. For again, Scripture promises that ALL Israel will be saved (Jer. 50:5, Luke 16:19-26, John 12:32, Romans 11:26-29).

· Christ’s fallen apostle, Judas, will be restored just as surely as fallen Israel (of which he is a member) will be restored. For the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable, and He has purposed to unite all in Christ. For Scripture assures us that He who calls us is “faithful”. He will surely perform it. So Judas is lost—until—the Lord restores Him (John 15:16, 1 Thess. 5:24).

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Messages from the Bible in the last two posts, under eventual reconciliation, empowers our faith to explode and help many to be saved in this lifetime, and thus not having the blood of the lost upon us, we worked hard and many came to Him through Jesus. Good deal?

Such faith would reach the Arabs without that Pagan Trinity and much of the other tare laden things. Sure, we would be persecuted, but really who cares, if we belong to Jesus and have confidence that we do, and we do our Father's Will, what are we afraid of? What happened to our original faith? Can't anyone here see anything at all! If the real faith were used from Jesus, the Word would punch holes into the darkness and shine so brightly that the world could actually see and be saved.

I like the JW's belief of the second chance for the people of the world, but they are dragged down by a tare laden modern faith as is most of Christendom. However, we should not forget our lesson of the Chinese Christians. I hope that the tares don't catch up with their powerful and beautiful faith and excellent unity (it is way beyond all of Christianity, even the Jehovah Witnesses). The Chinese Christians may be close to 200 million by now. They had less than 50,000 in 1952. I believe that God wants us to find him and maybe to find those pesky tares around us also. Believe, follow and obey Jesus. Have a most beautiful day ever in the Lord our God, our Father. Love you guys.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Hi Fred V B,

The power of love, obeying Jesus, is a key wall mover and faith maker & builder. Please continue. I am some times at wit's end here with contrary views, but try to respect everyone the best that I can. We do need to obey Jesus, even before thinking that we need to be religious.

I may be approaching the middle of my long water fast. Saturday night would be day 15, the second mile stone. It seems that I have much more energy, ability and determination, not to mention strength and determination, as well as praises for our God. My feet are changing by the day. I guess I am no longer obese. My blood pressure seems stubborn to stay around 125/75, but I expect it to dip any day. There were about three days that my weight won't move. It was a puzzle, until I realize that my feet were feeling much better. I suppose that plague is more dense in energy than fat. The tissue in my feet has seemed bloated and with poor circulation, may be filled with things like plague in the many awkward looking blood vessels. I can't afford a doctor, but God built us an amazing body that can heal itself. That might be one of the reasons for us to fast and pray. It is spiritually healthy and very good for our physical health as well. Our Father is always looking out for us. Praise him alway. To me, his name is Father.

May God bless you and keep you always.

 

[Stephen Kendall]

Does it worry any here that if we don't have the real faith, by not really obeying Jesus all the time, but for sure obeying our church cultures and their doctrines, that we could be guilty of hampering the Word of God? We wouldn't be as innocent as we might think, since we would have a habit of failing to obey Christ whenever it was convenient by obeying our religious beliefs first. The Number One obedience to Jesus is Love. Do you see the problem here. The Chinese Christians have love and unity of all 200 million and growing Christians. They must be very puzzled about us and the others of Christendom. They may want to eventually come to us all and try to help us find our way back.

 

[he-man]

I am not worried about the OT, for it can be 100% accurate.

Not hardky, there were many additions to the OT that were not in the originals, so you have to weed out the tares first.

We can be one church just like the Chinese, but we have to quietly conform to His love and ways. The Chinese can do it and are doing it, we just can't, right? Wrong, I can and do and will continue. Will anyone else?

Do you want to be assigned their portion? Mt 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, (51) and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Formed 4000 BCE Origin China Followers 400,000,000 Deity Multiple deities Sacred Texts Includes I Ching, Confucian Canon.

Chinese popular or folk religion holds aspects of ancestral belief systems such as animism and shamanism, shamanism, a religious phenomenon centered on the shaman, a person believed to achieve various powers through trance or ecstatic religious experience. Although shamans’ repertoires vary from one culture to the next, they are typically thought to have the ability to heal the sick, to communicate with the otherworld, and often to escort the souls of the dead to that otherworld;

I guess the Chinese did not have a Bible or if they did they choose to ignore what it says:
Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Deu 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Article continued....which include the veneration of ancestors, and energetic streams such as Qi, but also physical phenomena such as the Sun, the Moon, the Earth, the Heaven, and various stars, as well as communication with animals, such as auspices from birds. Related practices have been held by the Chinese people for over three thousand years, and alongside Buddhism, Taoism, and various other religions for the past two thousand years. Even in ancient China, religion emphasized documentation and was quite bureaucratic in nature.

The term "Chinese religion" thus refers to a diverse and complex collection of many traditions. Elements from earlier religions were preserved and integrated into the "three religions" when these were established, and the three co-exist with one another. With the exception of clergy, most people take elements from each of the three without affiliating exclusively with any one of them. At the same time, popular or folk religion in China continues to exist and exert an influence apart from the formal traditions.

The veneration of secondary gods does not conflict with an individual's chosen religion, but is accepted as a complementary adjunct, particularly to Taoism. Some mythical figures in folk culture have been integrated into Chinese Buddhism, as in the case of Miao Shan. She is generally thought to have influenced the beliefs about the Buddhist bodhisattva Guanyin.

This Bodhisattva originally was based upon the Indian counterpart Avalokiteśvara. Androgynous in India, this Bodhisattva over centuries became a female figure in China and Japan. Guanyin is one of the most popular Bodhisattva to which people pray.

Later, Buddhist influence led to the development of notions of reward and punishment in the afterlife.

Popular Folk Religion - Easy Talk Chinese

 

[Stephen Kendall]

he-man,

Did you read my earlier posts? When I said Chinese, I have already been posting on about the Christian Chinese. I assumed that people were following my earlier posts. Sorry to not say Chinese Christians.

It is amazing what's going on over there with the Holy Spirit and Jesus. I have been keeping up with them for over twelve years now. Back in around 2002, there were about only 60 million Underground Chinese Christians, now there are perhaps 200 million. Back in 1952 there were only 50,000. I believe, all of the pastors and missionaries were killed by the communists. It is all quite a story to follow. The Christian Chinese took the bibles left after the extermination of their leaders and developed a perfect unified faith as one, all together and grew as the underground Chinese Church (North & South Churches). I use to have a dvd of this Christian movement, but I gave it to my Church, then bought another and it too is loaned out, so it is hard to share what is happening there. The dvd came from Voice of the Martyrs website back in 2001-3. I have always been delighted with this Christian movement in China, it is so beautiful. There are some stories that I know won't become public for years which are great for our Christian Heritage, but I wish people knew them already. Example: the Holy Spirit moved in a young Chinese peasant woman (not many years back) to make music and songs. Not ordinary music and songs. For it was so grand that they were called canon songs (?). All the churches accepted them quickly and would sing them. She was inspired to write 900 of these songs with music, all 900 make up their North, South and Three Self Churches hymnals. The problem was she didn't even know how to make them, it was from God. The songs sounded like the early churches' faith, not our modern faith. They are as sweet as the souls that obeyed Jesus walking into their persecutions coming upon them. I wish that I could find that 4 disc dvd set again. The music that this young woman recorded was way too complicated and delicate for an ignorant peasant girl to produce not knowing anything about music or creating songs. The Christians knew it was from God leading them through their persecutions. The Christian persecutions in China are deaths, imprisonments, confiscations, instant beatings (which could involve death) and tortures.

I believe that I found this dvd:

DVDs - Online Store - Voice of the Martyrs

that seems to be about the price that I paid (+-$30). It is truly worth the money. It changes any Christian and easily moves one to tears. I don't think that JWs are allowed to view such outside Christendom things, but if so, they are truly viewing a piece of our history in action and will be inspiring to them. The Chinese Christians today are a glimpse of our earliest Christians, maybe not with the most accurate means to know exactly of Christ and the Gospel, but are a glorious praise to our Lord of Lords. When the communist finally change their policy and end persecutions, the rest of Christendom might try to reconvert them, but I have a feeling that the reverse is more likely, even with JWs' efforts. Aren't we suppose to not reconvert those who already accepted Jesus and are obeying him? I remember this being in scripture somewhere, maybe Paul's writings.

The very part of knowing that you have obeyed Jesus and have his love within you, is to show respect to others and especially to those who believe, obey and follow Jesus Christ. I am finding instead that many try to reconvert, criticize and condemn others. What a pity that they don't know their Lord.