Will Creation Science Ever Be Accepted By Mainstream Scientists?

[lesliedellow]

If you are a Christian, you should believe that God is all powerful and perfect. That He created the world, can raise the dead, control the weather, rain down manna, split the Red Sea, flood the earth in 40 days, utterly annihilate Sodom and Gomorrah in an instant, send down fire from heaven to consume a sacrifice within seconds,... do I really need to go on?

If you accept all of that, is it so hard for you to accept that God could create the world in 6 days?

Whether or not God could create the universe in six days is not the question, although you might wonder how "day" would have been defined prior to there being an Earth rotating on its axis. The question is whether or not he did, and the overwhelming evidence is that he did not.

 

[Armoured]

*sigh* well at least he came back, I guess

 

[Chicken Little]

In order to believe in evolution, then you must believe that there was DEATH before sin, which is impossible as there was no such thing until after Adam and Eve betrayed God. Evolution makes God into a cruel master, something for which he is most certainly not. Everything in the Bible that God did, He did quickly, not over millions of years.

Please also understand that if you reject even one part of the Bible, you bring into question EVERYTHING in the Bible and it becomes whatever you want to believe instead of being the Word of God. It is God's book, not man's. We have no right to change it and if we truly believe in God and everything He is, we should accept and respect that. Furthermore, Jesus said that we must build our houses upon a rock - the Word of God is that rock, for it is truth - and if you change the Bible or refuse to believe in what it says, then you are building upon the sand and when the storm (criticism of your beliefs) hits your faith will fall apart and wash away. While many believe that the Bible contradicts itself, it really doesn't if you take the time to study and try to understand it.

Most scientists are atheists and so their research is based around keeping God out of science and avoiding anything that might prove that He exists. Do you truly question God's power so much that you would believe some "well educated" atheists over the true Word of God?

We live in a world that is currently under the power of Satan, the ultimate deceiver. Would it not make sense that he would deceive the world with science? Is that so far-fetched of an idea? If I was in Satan's position I would corrupt the church, deceive the people with lies and "scientific" explanations that most people won't or don't want to bother to actually research themselves, and I'd distract them with shiny cars, idols, big houses, physical pleasures, lots of money, and perversion. I would quickly silence anyone who brings attention to the truth. Any other plan would be illogical and not accomplish Satan's goals.

All people are easily corrupted by greed, lust, and power. We all know there are corrupt politicians, lawyers, doctors, police, surgeons, car salesmen, etc. so is it so hard to believe that maybe some scientists are corrupt too? When some corrupt scientist publishes his research, it is then used and studied by honest researchers, for which their work is based on, and the web of lies continues.

And yes, I am a Seventh Day Adventist. Since I converted less than 6 months ago, my life has truly been changed and transformed for the better. I have come to truly believe that God is all powerful, intelligent, and merciful. He has the power to create the world in 6 literal days and did, and I honor that every Sabbath, not because as an Adventist I'm required to, it's because I know it is true. I am not some mindless fool, I am well educated, base my conclusions on logic, and I know what I am talking about.

Everyone has their own perspectives and beliefs, and the whole evolution vs. creation debate will never end because of it. We all believe what we want to believe, regardless of whether it's true or not. Atheists will always reject creation and God, and many Christians will always start to doubt their beliefs because the atheists claim creation and God are illogical. And so it is for this reason my project is of great importance. Even if I can't convince the mainstream scientists that creation is logical and scientific, I can at least shake things up a bit and give Christians the support they need to strengthen their faith, which is really its purpose anyway.

Awesome little sister! see ya on the 7thday!

 

[Gene2memE]

If you are a Christian, you should believe that God is all powerful and perfect.

According to who or what?

That He created the world, can raise the dead, control the weather, rain down manna, split the Red Sea, flood the earth in 40 days, utterly annihilate Sodom and Gomorrah in an instant, send down fire from heaven to consume a sacrifice within seconds,... do I really need to go on?

So a perfect, all-knowing God needs to destroy aspects of his creation? Why would he create them in the first place?

If you're a Christian and believe in evolution, you need to take some time to consider what you are willing to believe and accept, and what it really means.

In order to believe in evolution, then you must believe that there was DEATH before sin, which is impossible as there was no such thing until after Adam and Eve betrayed God. Evolution makes God into a cruel master, something for which he is most certainly not. Everything in the Bible that God did, He did quickly, not over millions of years.

That's one interpretation. There are others that many, if not the majority, of Christians would consider more valid. For examples, the priests and laypeople that educated me had no problems teaching me evolutionary biology, geology or cosmology as supported by the evidence available. They believed in a literal son of God Jesus, but taught that the creation account was allegorical, as was much of the rest of the Bible.

Please also understand that if you reject even one part of the Bible, you bring into question EVERYTHING in the Bible and it becomes whatever you want to believe instead of being the Word of God. It is God's book, not man's. We have no right to change it and if we truly believe in God and everything He is, we should accept and respect that.

If you take a literal interpretation a lot of the Bible, and I mean A LOT, is demonstrably incorrect. I'd rather base my views on beliefs that correspond as closely to reality as is able, rather than willfully believe something that I know is incorrect.

Most scientists are atheists

Citation needed

and so their research is based around keeping God out of science and avoiding anything that might prove that He exists.

Science is limited by the assumptions of methodological naturalism. Therefore, God, whether he exists or not, has no place in science.

Science makes no comment on the existence or non-existence of God or gods.

What it does do though is render many of the claims of holy books as invalid. It investigates the evidence and draws conclusions based on that evidence. Many of these conclusions are in direct contradiction to the claims of religion.

Everyone has their own perspectives and beliefs, and the whole evolution vs. creation debate will never end because of it. We all believe what we want to believe, regardless of whether it's true or not.

I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. What you're talking about is willful denial of evidence, in favour of claims that have little or no basis in reality.

Atheists will always reject creation and God

As an atheist, my position is that there is no support for the claims of theism that a God/gods exist. This position is always provisional and tentative. I have no firm belief that there is no God, I just don't believe the claim that one exists.

If you can provide evidence for me that is sufficient to overcome my skepticism of this claim, I'll change my mind. I can't speak for other atheists, but I'm open to having my mind changed.

 

[Strathos]

That doesn't make any sense. When scientists date a geologic formation using radiometric dating, they describe the specific rocks that they dated. What is stopping creationist scientists from going to those same rocks and checking the dates for themselves?

A lot of times they do. The problem is that often, out of either ignorance or malice, they deliberately use the wrong methods or botch the correct methods and then proclaim that the different results they get are somehow proof that the methods don't work.

While I expect atheists to attack creation, I wasn't expecting Christians to as well...

Creation is not the issue here. The issue is a specific interpretation of a literal 6-day creation some 6000 years ago. You can take every atheist here and every Christian here and ask them if there was a creation or not, and they'd divide pretty much the way you'd expect them to. The issue between Christians is what exactly is meant by 'creation', i.e. the details of it.

If you are a Christian, you should believe that God is all powerful and perfect. That He created the world, can raise the dead, control the weather, rain down manna, split the Red Sea, flood the earth in 40 days, utterly annihilate Sodom and Gomorrah in an instant, send down fire from heaven to consume a sacrifice within seconds,... do I really need to go on?

If you accept all of that, is it so hard for you to accept that God could create the world in 6 days? If you believe in God, then you should acknowledge his power, knowledge, and mercy.

Again, you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. The issue is not whether God could, but whether He would.

If YEC (Young-Earth Creationism) was correct, it would mean the following:

- Some 6000 years ago, God creates the universe and the earth in 6 literal days, exactly how it is spelled out in Genesis
- Then, God tweaks the entire universe to plant evidence of false history that never happened (fossils of extinct creatures showing evolutionary lineages, nested hierarchies of lifeforms predicted by speciation via mutation and natural selection, endogenous retroviruses and other such markers in the DNA of all living creatures implying common descent, partially-decayed radioactive isotopes indicating rocks being millions or billions of years old, light from stars that has been travelling for millions or billions of years, light from stars that exploded millions of years ago, and thus, in this model, never actually existed in the first place, asteroids and planets in space moving in orbits that can be tracked back to collisions that never actually happened but have all the appearance of having had happened, fossil patterns consistent with rates of continental drift over millions of years that are still observed today, patterns of tree rings going back over 6000 years, patterns of erosion such as incised meanders in rivers that could only be carved by gradual action of water over millions of years, ice cores showing records of time stretching back hundreds of thousands of years, crystals and stalactites that would take millions of years to grow to their current size, and about a hundred other such pieces of evidence.

The kicker? All of these corroborate each other. If you find evidence of, for example, a large volcanic eruption many thousands of years ago, you can not only date the layer of tephra (ejected material) as originating from that period via deposition rates, but if you look at the genetics of species effected by the eruption, you can find genetic bottlenecks (due to population reduction) dating from that same period. Then you can look at radioactive decay rates, etc. and they all confirm that yes, this volcanic event did happen at this point in prehistory.

Now, could God set up everything this way, to give the appearance of age? Of course. But would He? There would be no reason to, and it would be deceptive and against His character.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Also look at this verse:

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

When we look at the skies, what do we see? Multiple corroborating lines of evidence showing a universe that is billions of years old. So God is showing us that He created the universe billions of years ago.

 

[Martinius]

Thanks everyone for sharing your opinion. In all honesty, I wasn't expecting so many negative responses on a Christian forum!

. How about honest and truthful answers; I think that is a much better description.

Really, it is difficult to respond to all the illogic and incoherence hete, but there was one item that begs a response:

In order to believe in evolution, then you must believe that there was DEATH before sin, which is impossible as there was no such thing until after Adam and Eve betrayed God. Evolution makes God into a cruel master, something for which he is most certainly not. Everything in the Bible that God did, He did quickly, not over millions of years.

God is not a cruel master? Which bible are you reading? There are hundreds and hundreds of passages in the Old Testament that contain explicit violence, some of which are done by God, and others that God orders. There is mass murder, genocide, wholesale rape, complete destruction of property and theft of innocent people's possessions. People are killed indiscriminately or taken into slavery. All done by or ordered by God. And then you can find the audacity to say that God is not a cruel master?

You have my sincere sympathies, and I pray that you find help for your afflictions, of whatever type they may be.

 

[The Cadet]

Thanks everyone for sharing your opinion. In all honesty, I wasn't expecting so many negative responses on a Christian forum! I mean WOW... it truly shows the days we are in, doesn't it.

To put it bluntly, young earth creationism is akin to to flat-earthers. The sheer amount of concordant evidence you have to ignore in order to adhere to it is incredible.

If you are a Christian, you should believe that God is all powerful and perfect. That He created the world, can raise the dead, control the weather, rain down manna, split the Red Sea, flood the earth in 40 days, utterly annihilate Sodom and Gomorrah in an instant, send down fire from heaven to consume a sacrifice within seconds,... do I really need to go on?

If you accept all of that, is it so hard for you to accept that God could create the world in 6 days? If you believe in God, then you should acknowledge his power, knowledge, and mercy.

Let me put on my Christian hat for a minute.

It's not hard at all for me to imagine God creating the world in 6 days. Or a heartbeat. I could easily imagine god creating the world last Thursday. What I can't imagine is why he would create the world last Thursday and give us all false memories of last Tuesday. As I quoted above, it's not an issue of evidence, it's an issue of conscience. An all-powerful God could create any world, with any set of conditions, and do anything to fool us, and if he deemed it so, he could easily implant in us a false memory we were absolutely convinced of that we had watched in timelapse a 4-billion-year birds-eye-view of the world (á la end of the movie "Lucy"). He could do that, and still have made the world pop into existence last week.

But why would a benevolent god who wants us to believe that he created the world 6,000 years ago create a world where every speck of evidence we can find clearly and consistently points to a world much, much older than that? Why would he do that? That seems brutally unfair. "You have to believe in me, otherwise you will burn in hell. Also, my holy book is totally right but all the evidence will tell you that it's wrong." Talk about an unfair game!

There is no scientific case to be made for a young earth. There simply isn't. All there is is a specific, very modern sect of religious believers (creation science did not exist before the mid-20th century) who take it on faith that the world is 6000 years old and twist the evidence to try desperately to support their beliefs. And it fails, again and again and again, because real inquiry doesn't work like that, and reality doesn't point to a 6000-year-old earth. It points to a 4.5 billion year old earth.

If you're a Christian and believe in evolution, you need to take some time to consider what you are willing to believe and accept, and what it really means.

In order to believe in evolution, then you must believe that there was DEATH before sin, which is impossible as there was no such thing until after Adam and Eve betrayed God. Evolution makes God into a cruel master, something for which he is most certainly not. Everything in the Bible that God did, He did quickly, not over millions of years.

Why couldn't the genesis account be allegory? Why do Adam and Eve actually need to exist? Because modern genetics has basically established that they didn't. Many Christian sects hold that Genesis was allegory that needs to be interpreted as a fable. Sort of like an Aesop, except the message is not "be kind to your neighbor" but rather "this is what god thinks of humans". This makes far more sense than a god who makes all of that happen, then creates fake evidence all over the world that points unambiguously to everything in the Genesis account not having happened as it was described.

Please also understand that if you reject even one part of the Bible, you bring into question EVERYTHING in the Bible and it becomes whatever you want to believe instead of being the Word of God. It is God's book, not man's. We have no right to change it and if we truly believe in God and everything He is, we should accept and respect that.

How do you know the earth is young? Are you sure you didn't have to interpret the bible at all? Were you reading the original Hebrew scriptures? No? Congratulations, man has already changed it, in countless little ways. The "word of god" is a book?! In a dead language?! There's no way it could be passed on without interpretation. That's just how language works.

Furthermore, Jesus said that we must build our houses upon a rock - the Word of God is that rock, for it is truth - and if you change the Bible or refuse to believe in what it says, then you are building upon the sand and when the storm (criticism of your beliefs) hits your faith will fall apart and wash away. While many believe that the Bible contradicts itself, it really doesn't if you take the time to study and try to understand it.

Who bought the Potter's field?

Most scientists are atheists and so their research is based around keeping God out of science and avoiding anything that might prove that He exists. Do you truly question God's power so much that you would believe some "well educated" atheists over the true Word of God?

This is a well-publicized lie. As recently as 2005, over half of biologists were theists. All of the scientists who brought forth the revolutions in geology that proved the flood mythos wrong were Christians trying to prove it right. If most scientists are atheists, then this is a very recent development, one that occurred long after the evidence destroying the young earth model was revealed.

Look, I get it. You take it on faith that the bible is 100% correct. However, here's the thing: the world we observe does not support that conclusion. It just doesn't. "Creation Science" is not about science, it's about defending the scientifically indefensible. And you're welcome to do that. You can take on faith whatever you want. But don't pretend that the science backs you up. Because it doesn't.

 

[mzungu]

Please also understand that if you reject even one part of the Bible, you bring into question EVERYTHING in the Bible and it becomes whatever you want to believe instead of being the Word of God.

The Bible is a spiritual guide and not a textbook otherwise you will be forced to kill witches, stone to death women who are found not to be virgins on their wedding, kill disobedient children, and all manner of things that are simply not allowed in today's societies bar the Islamic State held areas.
The Bible was written by men and men are fallible.

 

[mindlight]

Hi everybody, I'm new here

I'm a new Christian and a few months ago, I watched a long series of seminars by Dr. Kent Hovind on creation. After being indoctrinated with the tales of evolution for so long, his seminars really helped me strengthen my faith. I had doubts for so long, then after watching his arguments for creation, it really opened my eyes.

Wanting to share this new found knowledge, I tried sharing the video series with friends and family, but because most people aren't willing to watch hours and hours of video, everyone I shared it with seemed to ignore it. So I decided to launch a website that discusses all of the creationist arguments in all areas of science and does it in a non-aggressive, easy to understand kind of way, full of articles that people can quickly skim through or watch a quick video on.

I know there are several websites out there about creation, but this one is going to be new and different, and will cover metaphysics, parapsychology, and things of that sort as well.

In any case, it's a massive undertaking so if there is any creationists here who have some science background or even an interest in science, and have some time to write articles, let me know as I could definitely use your help and insight!

I really think there is a lot of evidence to support creation, it's just a matter of putting it all together, backing it up with proper research, and presenting it professionally... then maybe, just maybe, it might be taken seriously by mainstream scientists!

Do you Agree? Disagree? What do you think?

Hi trutheverlasting( cool name by the way).

I take a different view to Hovind and those who have ridiculed creation science in this OP. Modern science has adopted a naturalistic methodology which excludes the possibility of the miraculous. When it comes to issues like remote cosmology, origins and aspects of human nature it does not argue on the basis of testable and repeatable experimentation but rather it speculates by drawing analogies between things it can prove by experimentation. Thus the discussion of evolution or creation science is ultimately a theory laden one. Do you accept a naturalistic or a supernatural assumption for your theoretical framework. I think the mistake of creation science is to pretend that the argument can be conducted on the same terms as the naturalistic one. The mistake of the naturalists is to pretend the same degree of certainty can be ascribed to macro evolution as can to the more verifiable view that the earth goes round the sun for instance. In short there is no such thing as creation science or indeed mainstream science when it comes to the question of origins. This question is in short beyond the scope of science. So the arrogance and negativity of those who blindly ascribe to evolutionary theory can be dismissed with a pinch of salt. Neither side really know how God did it and the confidence with which they assert their positions reveals not truthes but idolatries.

That said I tend to the view that God created us relatively recently and in 6 days much as the bible says. I have a great degree of certainty because my faith is in the only eyewitness to that event, indeed the only valid eyewitness that there could be to that event.

 

[Loudmouth]

Thanks everyone for sharing your opinion. In all honesty, I wasn't expecting so many negative responses on a Christian forum! I mean WOW... it truly shows the days we are in, doesn't it. Well, all is good, I will proceed with my plans, it just gives me a good idea of what to expect from most people.

While I expect atheists to attack creation, I wasn't expecting Christians to as well...

They aren't attacking creation. They are attacking specific creationists because they misrepresent the truth. Kent Hovind is one of the most prominent examples of creationists who fit this bill.

If you are a Christian, you should believe that God is all powerful and perfect.

Then why would God need people using lies in order to defend a type of creationism that is simply a human tradition?

If you accept all of that, is it so hard for you to accept that God could create the world in 6 days? If you believe in God, then you should acknowledge his power, knowledge, and mercy.

God couldn't create the world with the physical laws that God already made? Is it so hard to accept the evidence found in the creation itself? If we can't trust the creation, then how can we trust the Bible?

 

[sfs]

If you're a Christian and believe in evolution, you need to take some time to consider what you are willing to believe and accept, and what it really means.

Many of us have spent decades carefully considering what we believe and what it really means.

 

[mindlight]

God couldn't create the world with the physical laws that God already made? Is it so hard to accept the evidence found in the creation itself? If we can't trust the creation, then how can we trust the Bible?

You can trust creation to reveal and physical laws to explain a great many things but they do not include ex nihilo creation, water into wine the healing of a withered limb with a word or fish and bread out of thin air. Nor can you justify evolution without drawing analogies between one set of verifiable facts and another. The evolutionary model may give reasons for a great many things without explaining anything.

 

[Chicken Little]

Is it so hard to accept the evidence found in the creation itself? If we can't trust the creation, then how can we trust the Bible?

wait a minute.. you messed/ twisted that up. she and I trust his creation 100% what I don't trust is your eyes to even see his creation , much less to know his creation to understand it's laws or calculate it laws or define those laws . both with what your eyes thinks it sees now and what it never saw ..
so it is your eyes and mind and your beliefs I (we?)don't trust. I trust him and his creation just fine.
They are awesome!

 

[mindlight]

Many of us have spent decades carefully considering what we believe and what it really means.

Mainstream science spent centuries holding fast to the Ptolemaic system. People devoted their lives to the observations and explanations by which the model was able to predict the movements of stars and planets and yet they were wrong.

At the same time the bible talks about 2 kinds of workers, those who worked their whole lives for the Master and those who came late but were paid the same wage. What mattered was the fact that they served Him not the rights that they thought they might have accumulated by service.

 

[Loudmouth]

You can trust creation to reveal and physical laws to explain a great many things but they do not include ex nihilo creation, water into wine the healing of a withered limb with a word or fish and bread out of thin air.

For creation, we have something else entirely. We have evidence that contradicts young earth creationism. This isn't a case of not having evidence for a miraculous occurrence. Rather, we have literal mountains of evidence showing a billion year history for the Earth, billions more for the history of stars, and both fossil and genetic evidence demonstrating evolution over hundreds of millions of years.

Are you saying that God faked all of this evidence?

Nor can you justify evolution without drawing analogies between one set of verifiable facts and another. The evolutionary model may give reasons for a great many things without explaining anything.

I can justify evolution with scientific evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Did God go out of his way to create a nested hierarchy at the levels of morphology and DNA just to make it look like evolution happened?

 

[mindlight]

For creation, we have something else entirely. We have evidence that contradicts young earth creationism. This isn't a case of not having evidence for a miraculous occurrence. Rather, we have literal mountains of evidence showing a billion year history for the Earth, billions more for the history of stars, and both fossil and genetic evidence demonstrating evolution over hundreds of millions of years.

Are you saying that God faked all of this evidence?



I can justify evolution with scientific evidence.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Did God go out of his way to create a nested hierarchy at the levels of morphology and DNA just to make it look like evolution happened?

Ok show me. Give one of your fool proof examples. Because legitimate doubts can be raised against everyone of the "proofs" you allude to.

 

[ChetSinger]

I really think there is a lot of evidence to support creation, it's just a matter of putting it all together, backing it up with proper research, and presenting it professionally... then maybe, just maybe, it might be taken seriously by mainstream scientists!

Do you Agree? Disagree? What do you think?

Hello trutheverlasting, and welcome!

Speaking as a YEC, I think the answer is usually "no".

One reason is that creation science and naturalistic science start off with two different assumptions regarding our origins:

• Creation Science - What we see came about as spoken by the God of the Bible.
• Naturalistic Science - What we see came about using natural laws only.

While individuals can look at creation evidence and come to faith in God, I don't think the assumptions in either of these two fields are going to change.

You might as well be talking about the resurrection of Christ. It was a supernatural event; someone either accepts it as such, or not.

 

[Michael]

Ok show me. Give one of your fool proof examples. Because legitimate doubts can be raised against everyone of the "proofs" you allude to.

http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/ice_core_co2.html

FYI, raising doubts isn't the same as supporting your own assertions. Anyone can "raise doubts" on virtually any topic.

 

[ChetSinger]

Thanks everyone for sharing your opinion. In all honesty, I wasn't expecting so many negative responses on a Christian forum! I mean WOW... it truly shows the days we are in, doesn't it. Well, all is good, I will proceed with my plans, it just gives me a good idea of what to expect from most people.

While I expect atheists to attack creation, I wasn't expecting Christians to as well...

This forum is open to all. If you want a friendlier audience there are Christian-only Origins forums in the Theology section. One of them is for YEC members only (although some TE's also post there).

 

[Chicken Little]

were saying you all do just fine with cold dead and hard and stuff that goes beep..