Will China overthrow Darwin?

mindlight said:

It even made a profit at the box office

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Yep. Most creationists who "publish" movies, books, cd's, youtube series etc... are actually milionaires. Their flock eats it all up like candy on a sunday. They keep throwing money at them just to tell them what they want to hear.

But I have to admire the ways in which ID raises serious questions about the theory and exposes major problems with it.

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Imaginary problems, that is.

mindlight said:

Ideologists who have an agenda to support have rejected this book as being inconsistent with that agenda and metanarrative. They are correct.

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Euh.... the only ones with the agenda here, are the ones with the a priori beliefs who can't handle a reality that deviates from what they already believe.

And those people are creationists.

mindlight said:

He was talking to scientists. In many universities it is career suicide to criticise the basic idea of evolution and even more so here in Europe.

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And rightfully so.

If some guy enters the geology department and starts talking about how the earth is flat... why would you reward him with grants and tenure?

This isn't any different.

mindlight said:

No because their conclusions cannot be demonstrated and because they contradict scripture.

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A couple posts back, you accused one party of "not willing to listen because of hidden agenda's".


Notice the bolded part in the quote? There's your agenda.

pat34lee said:

I choose to believe that Yahweh told us exactly how he created
the universe, and we either take his word for it or call him a liar.

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Or simply treat it like just one of the hundreds of religious creation stories, all of which have no actual bearing on reality.

sfs said:

Having lots and lots of highly dubious pieces of evidence does not make any of them more likely to be valid.

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And simply declaring anything invalid that contradicts
their theories doesn't make it so, either.

Lapinot said:

Plus, i might be mistaken, but i heard Darwin was a Christian man.

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So they say.
But i came across this quote recently:
"I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my father, brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.
And this is a damnable doctrine." (Charles Darwin)

Paul of Eugene OR said:

You are saying His universe, as He constructed it, lies to us. Your choice.

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Wrong. The universe is as it is. If you choose
to attribute age to certain features, that is up
to you. When you find actual ages written down,
then you have something. The bible, for instance.

DogmaHunter said:

Or simply treat it like just one of the hundreds of religious creation stories, all of which have no actual bearing on reality.

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Totally up to you. We all have the right to be wrong.
There are consequences, though.

pat34lee said:

Wrong. The universe is as it is. If you choose
to attribute age to certain features, that is up
to you. When you find actual ages written down,
then you have something. The bible, for instance.

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We observe a nearby galaxy a mere 3 million light years distant. We infer that, 3 million light years ago, there were stars shining (and we see that star shine right now).

If you choose to deny that, I will not agree with you.

pat34lee said in post #108:

The universe is as it is. If you choose
to attribute age to certain features, that is up
to you. When you find actual ages written down,
then you have something. The bible, for instance.

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Note that the Bible doesn't require that the earth is only 6,000 years old. All it requires is that Adam was created about 6,000 years ago. For various Bible verses make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam, as opposed to the earth, was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the Bible shows that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18).

And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Genesis 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Genesis 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Genesis 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Genesis 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Genesis 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Genesis 5:3).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC. If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the 7th millennium began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't mean that the Millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has started yet.) Also, it's curious that the next year, 1888 AD, Blavatsky published her book "The Secret Doctrine", referring to the "New Age". Also, it's curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the Bible verses referenced above show that Abraham, who was first promised the land of Israel by God (Exodus 32:13), was born about 1,948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC (subsequent to Adam's creation about 4114 BC), by "civilization" is meant "the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained" (Webster's, a print version). "The 4th millennium BC saw major changes in human culture. It marked the beginning of the Bronze Age and the invention of writing, which played a major role in starting recorded history. The city states of Sumer and the kingdom of Egypt were established and grew to prominence" (Wikipedia -- 4th millennium BC).

Regarding "civilization" being defined by Oxford Dictionaries as the "most advanced" stage of human social development and organization: Our current human civilization (4th millennium BC to the present) is the most advanced stage of human social development and organization, compared to all known prehistoric (pre-4th-millennium BC) stages.

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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC, by "current" is meant that civilization which began in the 4th millennium BC and continues on today, as opposed to any pre-Adamic human civilizations which may have existed from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years ago.

If there were pre-Adamic civilizations, they could have reached as high a level of technology as in our society today. For the Bible says: "there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things" (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). And even our future technology could have already been invented during past eons, for "that which is to be hath already been" (Ecclesiastes 3:15).

But all past-eons technology on the earth could have been obliterated by God, leaving no trace of it, just as all of our own technology today (and in our future) will eventually be obliterated by God, when "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10b). Here, "earth" could mean just the surface of the earth, for the planet itself could continue on forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69b). So the future, "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) could mean a new surface for the earth.

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Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC, by "human" civilization is meant human civilization in general, as opposed to the civilization of any particular people, for example the Aztec civilization.

Also, by "human" civilization is meant civilization started by humans as opposed to any non-human animals. For preceding the 1st human civilization, there could have been non-human, mammalian civilizations some 65 to 2 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent horse-like creatures (compare the strange horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:17-19). These could have rebelled against God and then been banished from this planet, and forced to live, perhaps, in underground bases on the far side of the moon or on the next planet out from the sun. For the future army of 200 million strange horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:16-19 will have to come from somewhere.

And preceding the 1st mammalian civilization, there could have been reptilian civilizations some 250 to 65 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent dinosaur/dragon creatures (compare Satan being a dragon in Revelation 12:9).

And preceding the 1st reptilian civilization, there could have been amphibian civilizations some 350 to 250 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent frog-like creatures, who could have rebelled against God and become unclean spirits (compare the frog-like creatures/unclean spirits in Revelation 16:13-14).

And preceding the 1st amphibian civilization, there could have been insect civilizations some 450 to 350 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent locust-like creatures (compare the strange locust-like creatures in Revelation 9:3-10), who could have rebelled against God and been banished to a cavern deep underground (compare the sealed pit in Revelation 9:1b-3,11).

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Someone might ask: "But don't only humans have the hands required to build things and civilizations?"

The various strange creatures mentioned above could have human-like hands. For they are not the same as the horses, locusts, frogs, etc., which we see today. And the Bible shows that non-human creatures can have human-like hands (Ezekiel 1:5-14).

pat34lee said:

Totally up to you. We all have the right to be wrong. There are consequences, though.

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About the same consequences as you not believing the creation myth of any other religion.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

We observe a nearby galaxy a mere 3 million light years distant. We infer that, 3 million light years ago, there were stars shining (and we see that star shine right now).

If you choose to deny that, I will not agree with you.

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And between us and that galaxy, what? Space is far
from a perfect vacuum. What makes you think that
any star we see is even where we think it is?

Also, what does cosmic expansion to to relative time?
Science has plenty of questions, but very few answers.

Bible2+ said:

Note that the Bible doesn't require that the earth is only 6,000 years old. All it requires is that Adam was created about 6,000 years ago.

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About 6,000 years ago on the sixth day of creation.

As the sixth millennia is drawing to a close, it won't
be much longer before the truth will become clear
to everyone.

pat34lee said:

About 6,000 years ago on the sixth day of creation.

As the sixth millennia is drawing to a close, it won't
be much longer before the truth will become clear
to everyone.

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Any minute now for the last 2000 years.

pat34lee said:

. . . What makes you think that
any star we see is even where we think it is?

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Isn't the answer to that right there in the question?

Also, what does cosmic expansion to to relative time?

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Objects in the distance moving fast away from us clearly have slowed time as a consequence of their motion.

Science has plenty of questions, but very few answers.

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Doesn't mean science has no answers.

pat34lee said:

Science has plenty of questions, but very few answers.

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What? Science put a man on the moon. A probe into Jupiter. Probes on Venus and Mars. It has extended our life spans by decades. Science has let mankind fight cancer. We can communicate instantly to anywhere in the world. It allows us to look inside the human body. Science has many many answers.

I suggest you take a course in science.

mindlight said:

Darwin has been acclaimed as one of the icons of Western civilisation and scientific superiority to more primitive and superstitious cultures. However work by eminent Chinese palaeontologists like for example J. Y. Chen have challenged these Western assumptions and cast real doubts on the theory of evolution itself. When Chen expressed these doubts in a lecture in 2000 in the University of Washingtons geology department. He was asked if he did not think expressing these doubts about Darwinism was a bit of a risk for him.
Chens answer quoted by Stephen C. Meyer in his book Darwins Doubt (Cambrian explosion issue for Darwinism) was very interesting.

Chen said:

"In China we can criticise Darwin but not the government. In America, you can criticise your government, but not Darwin."

I wonder if the idolatry of Darwin, which is reinforced by politicians making spending decisions for university funding etc, in Western scientific circles, will be more likely overthrown by an emerging power like China than internally recognised as problematic and unreal by Western scientists themselves.

When it comes to science is there more freedom of thought in Chinese scientific circles than in Western academia?

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Well, for one Darwin was heavily criticized and a number of his ideas are not accepted by today's mainstream scientists. The idea that he had was correct as the evidence shows, however he was wrong in a number of details.

The simple reality is everyone is open to criticism here, which undercuts the whole point of your article.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

Isn't the answer to that right there in the question?

Objects in the distance moving fast away from us clearly have slowed time as a consequence of their motion.

Doesn't mean science has no answers.

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No.

It isn't clear to me.

Science gives facts, not answers. Answers are subjective
except when they are moral or ethical. Either way, out of
the realm of science.

Paul of Eugene OR said:

We observe a nearby galaxy a mere 3 million light years distant. We infer that, 3 million light years ago, there were stars shining (and we see that star shine right now).

If you choose to deny that, I will not agree with you.

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You choose to represent that as a fact.
I see it as a hypothesis. Until someone
maps every foot of space between us,
not only is that distance a guess, so is
the speed of light between us. Space
is not a vacuum, so the speed of light
is not a constant. (necessarily)