Will China overthrow Darwin?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

An honest reading of scripture is going to have a difficult time getting round certain key statements.

Exactly the problem Martin Luther faced with scientists claiming the earth rotates as the cause of day and night.

1) God made the heavens, the earth, all plant life and creatures on this earth in just 6 days and given the bibles genealogies a matter of thousands of years ago. (Genesis 1:11).

It wasn't days, it was a Hebrew word. If one views the "yoms" as vast periods of time and if one views them being numbered in terms of catagories instead of sequential, the reconciliation can be made.

2) God created Adam directly from the clay not via a billion year period of evolution. (Genesis 2:7)

An allegorical summation of the whole creation of our species by evolution.

3) The flood is described as global:

It was all the world as known to those on the boat.

 

[Bible2+]

mindlight said in post #67:

The text in Genesis 1 says he created the stars, sun and moon on the fourth day. This does not really allow for a preexistent universe even if you take the Genesis 1 account as purely the earthside phenomenological experience of creation.

Note that it does. For God could have created the sun and moon billions of years after He first created the universe. Also, when Genesis 1:16 says "he made the stars also", the phrase "he made" is in italics because it's not in the original Hebrew. So Genesis 1:16b can simply mean the stars also rule the night, along with the moon.

Also, note that in Genesis 1:14-19 the 4th day is clearly only from the viewpoint of earth, as it repeatedly says.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Note that it does. For God could have created the sun and moon billions of years after He first created the universe. Also, when Genesis 1:16 says "he made the stars also", the phrase "he made" is in italics because it's not in the original Hebrew. So Genesis 1:16b can simply mean the stars also rule the night, along with the moon.

Also, note that in Genesis 1:14-19 the 4th day is clearly only from the viewpoint of earth, as it repeatedly says.

It's good to see interpretations being steered towards reality as we know it. After all, God made reality as well as the Bible. What is lacking is many have not understood, yet, the reality of evolution and the reality of the common descent of all life. We are in a transition time.

 

[Bible2+]

Paul of Eugene OR said in post #83:

It's good to see interpretations being steered towards reality as we know it.

Reality for Christians includes the existence of spirit (John 4:24; 1 Thessalonians 5:23), something which materialistic science refuses to admit.

Indeed, what science today is missing, in its search for a "Theory of Everything" which can unify all the physical forces in the universe, is spirit. So by continuing to exclude the whole idea of spirit, science can never hope to understand the universe at its most fundamental level, or what its ultimate origin was: "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit . . . even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5).

The relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, meaning that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny photon of energy. All energy being based on spirit would make sense, for God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and in Him everything consists (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28).

When science's equations regarding such things as the Big Bang singularity, black holes and quantum entanglement require the inclusion of infinities, these infinities shouldn't be seen as "failures", but as pointers to something going beyond the boundaries of the physical: that is, spirit. If science ever becomes able to describe spirit mathematically using proportional numbers rather than infinities, this could lead to new technologies (e.g. spiritual power plants, spiritual bombs), just as when science became able to describe atomic nuclei mathematically, this led to new technologies (e.g. nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs).

Just as energy consists of both particles (photons) and waves (electromagnetic waves) at the same time, so the basis for all energy, spirit, could consist of both particles (spiritons) and waves at the same time. If spirit is equivalent to consciousness, and consciousness consists of logic, emotion and memory, spiritual waves could consist of 3 sine waves (logic waves, emotion waves and memory waves) interlocked at 60-degree angles, just as electromagnetism consists of 2 sine waves (electric waves and magnetic waves) interlocked at a 90-degree angle. But by our current, strictly-physical-based mathematics, a spiritual wave or spiriton would show up in a calculation as an infinity, and so it could be mistakenly rejected by our current science as a "failure". It's possible that by creating a mathematics which involves 5 dimensions of space-time (instead of 4), the apparently infinite value of a spiritual wave or spiriton could be reduced to a proportional value.

String Theory has shown it's mathematically possible that space-time has more than 3 spatial dimensions. Because of observations such as Daniel 5:5, John 20:26b and Luke 24:31b the spiritual realm could be a 4th spatial dimension in which spiritual entities are able to move about without being seen by physical entities in our 3 physical spatial dimensions, because our physical eyes and light as we know it extend in only 3 physical spatial dimensions. The spiritual spatial dimension would be higher than our 3 physical spatial dimensions in the same sense that a 3rd physical dimension is higher than 2 physical dimensions. And so from the spiritual dimension, our physical dimensions may appear flat (or flatter), just as from 3 physical dimensions, something in 2 physical dimensions would appear flat. An entity with access to the spiritual spatial dimension could do such things as enter only part of himself into the physical realm (Daniel 5:5), or suddenly appear in a locked room (John 20:26b), or suddenly disappear (Luke 24:31b). This ability would apply not only to spiritual beings (1 Corinthians 15:44, Luke 24:39), but also to any spiritual wave or particle.

If spiritual particles exist, they could turn out to be "the God Particle" of science. While the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has reached a high-enough energy level so that a "God Particle" (a Higgs boson) has manifested itself, its observed qualities might ultimately be able to be described only by equations involving infinities, so its qualities and actions could ultimately be seen as "impossible" and "spooky", instead of science finally admitting to the existence of a substance which is spiritual. And spirit wouldn't have to be seen by scientists as some weird, foreign substance, but as the most fundamental substance of even their own selves (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And could spirit also be the basis for the "dark matter" and "dark energy" which together make up 96% of the universe, but which science can't yet observe directly or explain?

The really sad and dangerous thing is that even if science does eventually determine that "the God Particle" (or some other particle, detected at even higher LHC energy levels) is a spiritual particle, which science could come to call the "spiriton", some scientists could still refuse to believe in and submit themselves to YHWH God of the Bible, saying the existence of spirit per se doesn't require that there's one infinite, conscious spirit-being called YHWH God (John 4:24, Mark 12:30, Deuteronomy 6:5). And in its subsequent experiments with spirit, science could come into contact with the evil spirit-being called Lucifer (Satan), who could manifest himself in some future, ultra-high-energy LHC experiment and claim that he is the true, beneficent God of mankind and must be worshipped instead of YHWH. In this way, a nascent spiritual science could be hijacked and employed by Lucifer and his current worshippers as one part of their future deception by which the world will eventually be deceived into consciously and openly worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") as God (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), instead of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

--

The unity of mankind which will occur at that future time could be like the unity of mankind which occurred at the time of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6). And there could even be a future equivalent to the Tower of Babel, which could be built in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For Lucifer could show mankind how to build there a huge tower device, a spiritual machine the size of the Empire State Building, which will be able to send into the sky an incredibly powerful spiritual beam analogous to a laser. Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Lucifer could tell mankind that it will need to employ this huge weapon during an impending battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:14b, Revelation 19:19). Mixing some science fiction with some ancient lies of Gnosticism, Lucifer could tell mankind something like:

"YHWH will soon come down to the earth in his gigantic spaceship which is shaped like a Borg Cube [cf. Revelation 21:16]. He's coming to enslave you and turn you all into Borg-like drones. But this mighty Tower Device will be able to blow his Borg Cube and him to bits with its spiritual ray. Then we can focus the Tower Device on any point of empty space until it burns in space-time a hole, a portal through which I will lead your spirits out of this vile material universe which YHWH made to be our prison. And I will lead you back up into the purely-spiritual realm of the Pleroma [i.e. Heaven], where you can live as gods in bliss, doing what you please, forever, just as you had done with me for all ages past, before we by mistake fell into YHWH's trap of this material universe".

Before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming from heaven, Lucifer could prove the power of the Tower Device to mankind by letting the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) use it to blow up some large asteroids and even some moons of other planets, so that mankind will go into its battle against YHWH in full confidence that it will be able to destroy him. But when the battle comes, the device won't work against YHWH (cf. Psalms 21:11, KJV). Instead, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will descend from heaven and take total victory in the battle (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Paul of Eugene OR said in post #83:

What is lacking is many have not understood, yet, the reality of evolution and the reality of the common descent of all life.

Note that the reality of the evolution of some species doesn't require that it exclude the miraculous creation of other species, or the miraculous re-creation of some evolved species after some cataclysm had rendered them extinct (Genesis 1:2-31). Therefore, the reality of the evolution of some species doesn't require the common (in the sense of a solely-materialistic) descent of all life.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Reality for Christians includes the existence of spirit (John 4:24; 1 Thessalonians 5:23), something which materialistic science refuses to admit.

Indeed, what science today is missing, in its search for a "Theory of Everything" which can unify all the physical forces in the universe, is spirit. So by continuing to exclude the whole idea of spirit, science can never hope to understand the universe at its most fundamental level, or what its ultimate origin was: "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit . . . even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5).

The relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, meaning that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny photon of energy. All energy being based on spirit would make sense, for God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and in Him everything consists (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28).

When science's equations regarding such things as the Big Bang singularity, black holes and quantum entanglement require the inclusion of infinities, these infinities shouldn't be seen as "failures", but as pointers to something going beyond the boundaries of the physical: that is, spirit. If science ever becomes able to describe spirit mathematically using proportional numbers rather than infinities, this could lead to new technologies (e.g. spiritual power plants, spiritual bombs), just as when science became able to describe atomic nuclei mathematically, this led to new technologies (e.g. nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs).

Just as energy consists of both particles (photons) and waves (electromagnetic waves) at the same time, so the basis for all energy, spirit, could consist of both particles (spiritons) and waves at the same time. If spirit is equivalent to consciousness, and consciousness consists of logic, emotion and memory, spiritual waves could consist of 3 sine waves (logic waves, emotion waves and memory waves) interlocked at 60-degree angles, just as electromagnetism consists of 2 sine waves (electric waves and magnetic waves) interlocked at a 90-degree angle. But by our current, strictly-physical-based mathematics, a spiritual wave or spiriton would show up in a calculation as an infinity, and so it could be mistakenly rejected by our current science as a "failure". It's possible that by creating a mathematics which involves 5 dimensions of space-time (instead of 4), the apparently infinite value of a spiritual wave or spiriton could be reduced to a proportional value.

String Theory has shown it's mathematically possible that space-time has more than 3 spatial dimensions. Because of observations such as Daniel 5:5, John 20:26b and Luke 24:31b the spiritual realm could be a 4th spatial dimension in which spiritual entities are able to move about without being seen by physical entities in our 3 physical spatial dimensions, because our physical eyes and light as we know it extend in only 3 physical spatial dimensions. The spiritual spatial dimension would be higher than our 3 physical spatial dimensions in the same sense that a 3rd physical dimension is higher than 2 physical dimensions. And so from the spiritual dimension, our physical dimensions may appear flat (or flatter), just as from 3 physical dimensions, something in 2 physical dimensions would appear flat. An entity with access to the spiritual spatial dimension could do such things as enter only part of himself into the physical realm (Daniel 5:5), or suddenly appear in a locked room (John 20:26b), or suddenly disappear (Luke 24:31b). This ability would apply not only to spiritual beings (1 Corinthians 15:44, Luke 24:39), but also to any spiritual wave or particle.

If spiritual particles exist, they could turn out to be "the God Particle" of science. While the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has reached a high-enough energy level so that a "God Particle" (a Higgs boson) has manifested itself, its observed qualities might ultimately be able to be described only by equations involving infinities, so its qualities and actions could ultimately be seen as "impossible" and "spooky", instead of science finally admitting to the existence of a substance which is spiritual. And spirit wouldn't have to be seen by scientists as some weird, foreign substance, but as the most fundamental substance of even their own selves (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And could spirit also be the basis for the "dark matter" and "dark energy" which together make up 96% of the universe, but which science can't yet observe directly or explain?

The really sad and dangerous thing is that even if science does eventually determine that "the God Particle" (or some other particle, detected at even higher LHC energy levels) is a spiritual particle, which science could come to call the "spiriton", some scientists could still refuse to believe in and submit themselves to YHWH God of the Bible, saying the existence of spirit per se doesn't require that there's one infinite, conscious spirit-being called YHWH God (John 4:24, Mark 12:30, Deuteronomy 6:5). And in its subsequent experiments with spirit, science could come into contact with the evil spirit-being called Lucifer (Satan), who could manifest himself in some future, ultra-high-energy LHC experiment and claim that he is the true, beneficent God of mankind and must be worshipped instead of YHWH. In this way, a nascent spiritual science could be hijacked and employed by Lucifer and his current worshippers as one part of their future deception by which the world will eventually be deceived into consciously and openly worshipping Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his human son the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") as God (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), instead of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

--

The unity of mankind which will occur at that future time could be like the unity of mankind which occurred at the time of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11:6). And there could even be a future equivalent to the Tower of Babel, which could be built in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For Lucifer could show mankind how to build there a huge tower device, a spiritual machine the size of the Empire State Building, which will be able to send into the sky an incredibly powerful spiritual beam analogous to a laser. Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Lucifer could tell mankind that it will need to employ this huge weapon during an impending battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:14b, Revelation 19:19). Mixing some science fiction with some ancient lies of Gnosticism, Lucifer could tell mankind something like:

"YHWH will soon come down to the earth in his gigantic spaceship which is shaped like a Borg Cube [cf. Revelation 21:16]. He's coming to enslave you and turn you all into Borg-like drones. But this mighty Tower Device will be able to blow his Borg Cube and him to bits with its spiritual ray. Then we can focus the Tower Device on any point of empty space until it burns in space-time a hole, a portal through which I will lead your spirits out of this vile material universe which YHWH made to be our prison. And I will lead you back up into the purely-spiritual realm of the Pleroma [i.e. Heaven], where you can live as gods in bliss, doing what you please, forever, just as you had done with me for all ages past, before we by mistake fell into YHWH's trap of this material universe".

Before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming from heaven, Lucifer could prove the power of the Tower Device to mankind by letting the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) use it to blow up some large asteroids and even some moons of other planets, so that mankind will go into its battle against YHWH in full confidence that it will be able to destroy him. But when the battle comes, the device won't work against YHWH (cf. Psalms 21:11, KJV). Instead, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will descend from heaven and take total victory in the battle (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).



Note that the reality of the evolution of some species doesn't require that it exclude the miraculous creation of other species, or the miraculous re-creation of some evolved species after some cataclysm had rendered them extinct (Genesis 1:2-31). Therefore, the reality of the evolution of some species doesn't require the common (in the sense of a solely-materialistic) descent of all life.

Or GUIDED descent of all life. Look how God GUIDED mankind into having a nation suitable for the Christ to come into as the Savior of mankind. God GUIDING things in a very long time frame to achieve His purposes seems to be a good description of one way He has of doing things.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Reality for Christians includes the existence of spirit (John 4:24; 1 Thessalonians 5:23), something which materialistic science refuses to admit.

Indeed, what science today is missing, in its search for a "Theory of Everything" which can unify all the physical forces in the universe, is spirit. So by continuing to exclude the whole idea of spirit, science can never hope to understand the universe at its most fundamental level, or what its ultimate origin was: "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit . . . even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all" (Ecclesiastes 11:5).

I think you are missing a description of the spirit that hangs together. Until you have well described "spirit" you have only uttered a mysterious word.

The relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, meaning that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, to form each tiny photon of energy. All energy being based on spirit would make sense, for God is a Spirit (John 4:24), and in Him everything consists (Colossians 1:17, Acts 17:28).

OK that's a nice try. Now since e = mc^2, we can substitute mc^2 in your equation s = ec^3.
So s = (mc^2)c^3. Further combining gives us s = m^3*c^6. So spirit is nothing but mass multipied by itself 3 times and then the great big number of the speed of light times itself 6 times.

Seems to me that's a rather silly definition of spirit, and seems to imply spirit is nothing but matter multiplied by a great big number.

When science's equations regarding such things as the Big Bang singularity, black holes and quantum entanglement require the inclusion of infinities, these infinities shouldn't be seen as "failures", but as pointers to something going beyond the boundaries of the physical: that is, spirit.

I suggest you let scientists tell you when they know their equations aren't working right yet. Your idea here seems to be to have scientists stop all further research, because further advances are impossible, they just need to give up and explain everything that doesn't work right in their equations now to the interference of unknowable spirit.

That approach is a hindrance to scientific advancement and will be rightly ignored.

If science ever becomes able to describe spirit mathematically using proportional numbers rather than infinities, this could lead to new technologies (e.g. spiritual power plants, spiritual bombs), just as when science became able to describe atomic nuclei mathematically, this led to new technologies (e.g. nuclear power plants, nuclear bombs).

How do you know they aren't right now actually using "spiritual" atomic bombs, if this kind of thinking could possibly be true? Why not just label such things as the strong nuclear force the "spiritual" force? Indeed, why not ascribe all forces to spiritual causes?

Consider my computer playing against me a game of chess. Could one of these pawns ever hope to master physics of chess boards to the point of gaining access to manipulating the computer? Of course not. The rules of physics on the chessboard, as far as the pawn is concerned, are completely unable to reach out to access the computer that controls those physics.

So it is in our universe in relation to God. Our part, in developing science, is to determine how things work together here and the rules that control such interactions. Science can never break out of the rules, using those rules, to interact with the great, infinite Mind of God that sustains and controls those laws. Such interactions can only happen as God allows for them to happen.

 

[Bible2+]

Paul of Eugene OR said in post #86:

Seems to me that's a rather silly definition of spirit, and seems to imply spirit is nothing but matter multiplied by a great big number.

No, just as e=mc^2 doesn't mean that energy is nothing but matter multiplied by a great big number.

-

Also, materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough (perhaps a trillion) neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they can be referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness being ultimately based on spirit would make sense. For God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20). For everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148, Luke 19:40). It would also explain how the simple act of conscious observation can affect the results of quantum-level experiments.

Also, materialist humans desiring to create a machine consciousness could merely result in their own slavery to this machine. That is, the desire to expand artificial intelligence through "machine learning", in the pursuit of more and more profits by major internet and computer corporations, with their increasingly "smart assistants", could ultimately result in the slavery of all mankind to a single, seemingly-omniscient machine.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

No, just as e=mc^2 doesn't mean that energy is nothing but matter multiplied by a great big number.

-

Also, materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough (perhaps a trillion) neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they can be referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness being ultimately based on spirit would make sense. For God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20). For everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148, Luke 19:40). It would also explain how the simple act of conscious observation can affect the results of quantum-level experiments.

Also, materialist humans desiring to create a machine consciousness could merely result in their own slavery to this machine. That is, the desire to expand artificial intelligence through "machine learning", in the pursuit of more and more profits by major internet and computer corporations, with their increasingly "smart assistants", could ultimately result in the slavery of all mankind to a single, seemingly-omniscient machine.

Far to much sheer speculation for me.

 

[pat34lee]

Any scientist anywhere can "overthrow Darwin". All he or she has to do is present scientific evidence that Darwin was wrong. Except that large parts of Darwin have already been overthrown and replaced with more accurate evolutionary theories. If someone wants to overthrow the basic fact of evolution -- that all life is related by common ancestry -- they have a very tall order. But again, all that's really needed is the evidence.

Wrong. Evidence has been given time and again.
It is either ignored, ridiculed or somehow 'lost'.
And it isn't like the OOPARTs are rare. They have
been found since the beginning of archeology and
everywhere around the world.

Just as dinosaurs have been seen by people of all
cultures, described in books, paintings, ceramics
and even sculpture and architecture.

 

[pat34lee]

It wasn't days, it was a Hebrew word. If one views the "yoms" as vast periods of time and if one views them being numbered in terms of catagories instead of sequential, the reconciliation can be made.

And if you substitute rocks with dairy, then the
moon can be made of green cheese. When you
change word definitions, then nothing means
anything any more.

 

[sfs]

Wrong. Evidence has been given time and again.
It is either ignored, ridiculed or somehow 'lost'.

Or else it's all completely bogus.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

And if you substitute rocks with dairy, then the
moon can be made of green cheese. When you
change word definitions, then nothing means
anything any more.

Well, you choice is to accept the narration as a parable, or to accept the yom as possibly appropriate for a longer time span than a day, or to have scripture be in error. I choose door number two. I don't appreciate those who choose door number three.

 

[pat34lee]

Well, you choice is to accept the narration as a parable, or to accept the yom as possibly appropriate for a longer time span than a day, or to have scripture be in error. I choose door number two. I don't appreciate those who choose door number three.

I choose to believe that Yahweh told us exactly how he created
the universe, and we either take his word for it or call him a liar.

 

[pat34lee]

Or else it's all completely bogus.

You can only deny so much. As I said, OOPARTs
are from every continent and every time period.

 

[sfs]

You can only deny so much. As I said, OOPARTs
are from every continent and every time period.

Having lots and lots of highly dubious pieces of evidence does not make any of them more likely to be valid.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I choose to believe that Yahweh told us exactly how he created
the universe, and we either take his word for it or call him a liar.

You are saying His universe, as He constructed it, lies to us. Your choice.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Darwin has been acclaimed as one of the icons of Western civilisation and scientific superiority to more primitive and superstitious cultures.

How so?

I'ld say that if anyone deserves such a title, it probably is Gallilleo.
But even there, I don't really see the point.

However work by eminent Chinese palaeontologists like for example J. Y. Chen have challenged these Western assumptions and cast real doubts on the theory of evolution itself.

Really now? So how is the scientific community responding to this? How come this hasn't shaken up all biology departments around the world? Why isn't this front page news?

When Chen expressed these doubts in a lecture in 2000 in the University of Washingtons geology department. He was asked if he did not think expressing these doubts about Darwinism was a bit of a risk for him.
Chens answer quoted by Stephen C. Meyer in his book Darwins Doubt (Cambrian explosion issue for Darwinism) was very interesting.

Chen said:

"In China we can criticise Darwin but not the government. In America, you can criticise your government, but not Darwin."

It's not so much interesting as it is wrong. If anything, America is probably the most accomodating to evolution deniers.

Replace "america" with "western universities" however, and then you might be on to something. But the wording is all wrong. It's not that you can't criticise darwin, evolution or indeed any other science.

It's that you actually need to have a solid case and evidential support, before scientists will take your criticism seriously. Critisism for the sake of it, or based on religious beliefs, isn't criticism at all and it will rightfully fall on deaf ears.

I wonder if the idolatry of Darwin, which is reinforced by politicians making spending decisions for university funding etc, in Western scientific circles, will be more likely overthrown by an emerging power like China than internally recognised as problematic and unreal by Western scientists themselves.

There's no such idolatry, regardless of what your YEC leaders have told you through their propaganda channels.

When it comes to science is there more freedom of thought in Chinese scientific circles than in Western academia?

No. Science has no geographical boundaries.

 

[DogmaHunter]

For instance if you dare to express your doubts concerning global warming, you will be rejected and mocked by people and even by the medias.

Only because global warming as a model has been known and demonstrated for more then 50 years and to deny it is nothing short of perverse.

It's perfectly fine to ridicule ridiculous beliefs.

It is good to see these western scientific theories being challenged by oriental thinkers, it brings very interesting debates in the world !

There are no "western" scientific theories. There are just scientific theories.
Biology, physics, chemistry,... is and works the exact same everywhere on the planet.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Plus, i might be mistaken, but i heard Darwin was a Christian man.

Which is completely irrelevant.
The inventors of algebra were muslims. So what?
Algebra still works.

Newton believed in alchemy. In fact, he spend more time working on and writing about alchemy, then he did about physics. So what?

It doesn't matter what Darwin "believed" about anything when it comes to his scientific work in biology. Just like it doesn't matter what Newton believed about alchemy when it comes to his laws of motion.

 

[DogmaHunter]

There is an interesting movie "Expelled No Intelligence Allowed"

It's not so much interesting as it is a prime example of creative editing and creationist dishonesty.