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mindlight

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Chen is dead wrong. Darwin is widely criticized in America.

He was talking to scientists. In many universities it is career suicide to criticise the basic idea of evolution and even more so here in Europe.
 
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On a related note, one of the coolest and most educational exhibits on evolution I've ever seen is at the Shanghai Natural History Museum. The Mankind Evolution Hall at the Beijing Natural History Museum is also very informative.

True Chinese Communism relationship with Darwin as with Mao is a strong one and Chen was not really seeking to overthrow the theory at all but he had some new ideas about how to think of it. The main point was about the freedom of thought
 
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The myth has grown larger than the man to the point that the delusion he fathered is no longer dependent on him. Kill Darwin and you still have the problem of a reductive methodological naturalism reaching well beyond the scope of what it can demonstrate to assert it knows better than God.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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As a Creationist I would have to say there was no biblical evidence for common descent but plenty for a common Designer and an intelligence in creation!!!

But you would always have to ignore the physical evidence. And the physical evidence was left us by the Creator. It is therefore consistent with the manner of His creation. Which was, therefore, evolution.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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If you continue to deny evolution, you do so in spite of the fact that you have a vestigial tail - your coccyx. There are many such pieces of evidence that inform us you are wrong to deny evolution.
 
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JackRT

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to assert it knows better than God.

Science says nothing about God for the simple reason that it can say nothing about God. I have been a Christian for over 70 years and I have no theological difficulties with the ToE.
 
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But you would always have to ignore the physical evidence. And the physical evidence was left us by the Creator. It is therefore consistent with the manner of His creation. Which was, therefore, evolution.

The physical evidence of fossils formed in sedimentary rock all over the world are to me evidence of a ferocious flood judgment. This was a supernatural and catastrophic intervention not a patient and gradual one spread over billions of years. But what can be read in this record is minimal because there is no analogy to the way these things were formed, there is no experiment by which we can demonstrate speculated links and patterns to be real and uniformitarian principles cannot be applied to an unanalogous supernatural judgment. So I am actually content to live with saying I know why that fossil is there but I am not sure why it is in this layer of rock and not that one.
 
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Science says nothing about God for the simple reason that it can say nothing about God. I have been a Christian for over 70 years and I have no theological difficulties with the ToE.

I was a TE before I was a YEC. This is not a salvation issue. The scriptures are a more reliable source than the book of nature when it comes to origins and fossils. Science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God and moves beyond its scope when it can no longer demonstrate the validity of its findings. The discussion of origins as of human nature and remote cosmology are examples of the overextension of science
 
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If you continue to deny evolution, you do so in spite of the fact that you have a vestigial tail - your coccyx. There are many such pieces of evidence that inform us you are wrong to deny evolution.

There is no such thing as vestigial organs. But there is proof of flexibility in our design that allows different types of creature to adapt to their environments. Fortunately we do not need tails.
 
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sfs

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As a Creationist I would have to say there was no biblical evidence for common descent but plenty for a common Designer and an intelligence in creation!!!
A healthy majority of Christian biologists disagree with you. Do you know more about biology than we do?
The ID movement generally has nothing at all to say about common descent, or even about the age of the earth. They refuse to take a position on either subject. Some of the more scientifically minded among them (e.g. Behe) accept common descent, but the movement as a whole doesn't want to offend creationists. Thus they're unsure about the most basic of factual questions (the age of the Earth), but are quite sure about a difficult question where there is little evidence.
Launching the discussion on the science forum I was amazed at how quick this became an ad hominem personal response and how little was said about the real issues except the quoting of the party line.
You do realize that almost everything you've written here is (in your sense) ad hominem and a quoting of your party line, right?

If you can propose an alternative theory that predicts genetic data as well as common descent, I'm all ears. What does ID predict about the kinds of genetic differences we'll see between humans and chimpanzees, say?
 
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~Anastasia~

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You seem to think I have something to prove here?

I was simply addressing the possibility that western academia might be less tolerant of new theories than the Chinese.

I'm not pointing out flaws in persons, but commenting on the tendency of a system (which is indeed composed of persons) ... but it is not my desire to air old grievances or prove anything. If anyone doubts the culture of western academia, I suppose they can go check for themselves.

And yes of course we are all flawed.

You really seem to be reading something into my posts that I never said. And that's not meant as a personal attack. We don't know each other well but I've seen you around the forums and generally respect your perspective.

So maybe we have some kind of misunderstanding going on. Forgive me please if I'm not inspired to defend my statements, as they weren't meant as arguments. I'm afraid I only find this all mildly amusing. I'm not upset.

Peace to you.
 
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mark kennedy

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Chen is dead wrong. Darwin is widely criticized in America.
Darwin always has been and always will be criticized. If you think the philosophy is limited to how things are selected in nature for adaptation your not paying attention.
 
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mark kennedy

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I know what creationists would say, it's exactly what was discovered, to much divergence to be explained rationally, let alone scientifically.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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You seem to think I have something to prove here?

I was simply addressing the possibility that western academia might be less tolerant of new theories than the Chinese. . . . .

The Chinese are under constant threat of the need to conform to the party line of their governing communist leaders. This threat perhaps frees them up to speculate in areas their leaders don't worry about. This is something that happens over and over again among us humans and there are those who would bring that situation about in our country if we don't watch out.

As it is today, we see how our divided country is able to get both factions to have a president elected, in turn. This is freedom. Which faction is the less tolerant? Which faction is more dangerous? Is that the same thing as asking which faction is more correct in its core beliefs? It is not. But it is worth asking.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Ok.

Forgive me, I'm going to have to leave you to it for now.
 
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sfs

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I know what creationists would say, it's exactly what was discovered, to much divergence to be explained rationally, let alone scientifically.
Creationists can say anything at all. Find me one who can tell me what the genetic differences between species should look like.
 
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mark kennedy

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Creationists can say anything at all. Find me one who can tell me what the genetic differences between species should look like.
We have had that conversation and it doesn't include mutations millions of base pairs long and highly conserved genes undergoing massive overhauls. It certainly doesn't include 60 brand new genes appearing out of nowhere related to vital brain function. Creationists simply believe God created life, the alternative comes with baggage.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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This seems to assume the alternatives are exclusive. There are many of us who believe God created all things using the process of evolution and common descent of all life. So everything you see that points to a creator is still pointing to a Creator and yet science isn't denied.
 
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