Will all men be saved?

[Gettingtalents]

Let's examine some of the texts that seem to indicate to some that God will ultimately save every man.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)
​

This passage does not say that God will save every man. Rather, he is the Savior of all men. This has to do with how God, as savior, is available to every man. It is like saying, "Water is the quencher of every man's thirst, especially of those who drink it."

In some passages, we see that it is God's will that all men would be saved:

"For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
​

Here, "will have" is translated from the Greek word telo, which indicates a desire. It does not say that God will save every man, but that God desires to save every man. This is the thought we find here as well:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
​

Again, this does not say that God will save every man, but rather that he is willing that every man be saved. (notice also that the context shows that the day of the Lord will come once that opportunity is over. 2 Peter 3:10)

So, does the fact that it is God's will that every man be saved mean that every man will in fact be saved? No, it doesn't. Notice the following:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:39)
​

It was the Father's will that none of those given to Christ would be lost, but this did not occur:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
​

Here, "but" means "except" and thus we see that none of those given to Christ was lost except Judas. Now, it was not God's will that Judas be lost, but that was Judas' choice. Hence, although it is God's will that all men will be saved, this does not mean that all men, who have the ability to choose life or death, will be saved.

Let's look at another commonly used passage:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)
​

This passage is not applicable to "all men" but rather those men who have the foundation of Christ correct (that is, the teaching of salvation), but who are not correct in the things built upon that foundation (that is, things they teach in addition to salvation). This is the contextual meaning of the text. Paul laid the foundation, others were building upon it. As long as they had the foundation correct, they would be saved, if they, unlike their teachings, passed through the test of fire. Notice the context:

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.... If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10, 14-15)
​

Paul preached the gospel basics (Jesus Christ and him crucified, 1 Corinthians 2:2), but the additional teachings he did not give to them, who were babes (1 Corinthians 3:1-2), but he shared those things only with those who were matured (1 Corinthians 2:6). He laid only the foundation... Now, others were building on it. As long as they had that foundation correct, they would receive a reward for additional teachings that were correct, but they would not receive a reward if their additional teachings were erroneous. This whole passage applies only to those who were building upon the gospel basics. It does not apply to every man.

Now, with that beiing said, I believe the phrase, "yet so as by fire," means that he himself will be saved if he passed the test of the fire himself. It does not mean he will be saved regardless "like one running through some fire" but the Greek says, "houtos (even so) de (but) hos (as) dia (through) puros (fire)." His works will be tested by fire, and so will he. If he passes the test, he will be saved. That this is the intended meaning is seen by what Paul says immediately afterwards:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;" (1 Corithians 3:15-17)
​

The testing of the fire is not to purge men of their wickedness, but to purge the world of wicked men.

Your brother in Christ,
Jason

 

[Hillsage]

Let's examine some of the texts that seem to indicate to some that God will ultimately save every man.

To find the pearl of great price you are going to have to go deeper than the mentality of orthodoxy. But I suppose that's why you're here in the 'UNORTHODOX' forum.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially/malista of those that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)
​

This passage does not say that God will save every man. Rather, he is the Savior of all men. This has to do with how God, as savior, is available to every man. It is like saying, "Water is the quencher of every man's thirst, especially of those who drink it."

Actually it does say he will save all. But it's only "those who believe" who will be "most" saved, that is, to the fullest extent...or "in the greatest degree" that's possible.

3122 malista adv.) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

So it isn't saying ALL won't be saved. It is saying that only those who believe will be saved to the fullest degree.

In some passages, we see that it is God's will that all men would be saved:

"For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
​

Here, "will have" is translated from the Greek word telo, which indicates a desire. It does not say that God will save every man, but that God desires to save every man.

And if you knew what the word "will" really meant contextually, you wouldn't give it that definition in the following verses...would you?

MAT 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will/telo have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

This is the thought we find here as well:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
​

Again, this does not say that God will save every man, but rather that he is willing that every man be saved. (notice also that the context shows that the day of the Lord will come once that opportunity is over. 2 Peter 3:10)

Neither does it say God 'WON'T save' every man as you are assuming. But it does say "ALL should come to repentance" and before that happens guess what must happen first?

2TI 2:25 ....God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

Hmmm, so they must "repent before" they can "know the truth" and for that to happen must be 'granted by God'. How does that fit in with your theology? Fits fine with mine.

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So, does the fact that it is God's will that every man be saved mean that every man will in fact be saved? No, it doesn't. Notice the following:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:39)​

I'm sorry does it say God "hath given"? Well then it isn't a question of 'who' it is also a question of 'when' IMO.

It was the Father's will that none of those given to Christ would be lost, but this did not occur:​

Where is that in scripture? Do you make allowance for Christ choosing along with those whom the Father gavest?
​

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)

JOH 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Here, "but" means "except" and thus we see that none of those given to Christ was lost except Judas. Now, it was not God's will that Judas be lost, but that was Judas' choice. Hence, although it is God's will that all men will be saved, this does not mean that all men, who have the ability to choose life or death, will be saved.

It says nothing here about the hereafter, but only the here and now. You are simply limiting God to orthodoxie's time frame...not God's.
​

Let's look at another commonly used passage:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)
​

This passage is not applicable to "all men" but rather those men who have the foundation of Christ correct (that is, the teaching of salvation), but who are not correct in the things built upon that foundation (that is, things they teach in addition to salvation). This is the contextual meaning of the text. Paul laid the foundation, others were building upon it. As long as they had the foundation correct, they would be saved, if they, unlike their teachings, passed through the test of fire. Notice the context:

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.... If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10, 14-15)​

BINGO you really did nail this one. But you missed a point. FIRE saves. And it does so by destroying all that is not OF God. That's why God is a consuming fire. And death and hell will both be thrown into Him in the end that they too might be destroyed. When death/hell is destroyed then only life will remain.
​

Now, with that beiing said, I believe the phrase, "yet so as by fire," means that he himself will be saved if he passed the test of the fire himself. It does not mean he will be saved regardless "like one running through some fire" but the Greek says, "houtos (even so) de (but) hos (as) dia (through) puros (fire)." His works will be tested by fire, and so will he. If he passes the test, he will be saved. That this is the intended meaning is seen by what Paul says immediately afterwards:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;" (1 Corithians 3:15-17)​

Maybe I can continue to share more deeply than you apparently do at this point. Fire purges the BAD OFF the land/person that produces those works/fruits.

HEB 6:7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.
The 'land' which was burned, was never destroyed...it was cleansed/purified/saved .

The testing of the fire is not to purge men of their wickedness, but to purge the world of wicked men.

That is not the heart of God, nor is it a heart of love. That is the heart of orthodoxy IMO.

Please don't answer all of this. Your post was way too long and way too wrong. That necessitated me writing 'way too much'. Most won't even read it all.

 

[Phantasman]

Let's examine some of the texts that seem to indicate to some that God will ultimately save every man.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)
​

This passage does not say that God will save every man. Rather, he is the Savior of all men. This has to do with how God, as savior, is available to every man. It is like saying, "Water is the quencher of every man's thirst, especially of those who drink it."

In some passages, we see that it is God's will that all men would be saved:

"For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)
​

Here, "will have" is translated from the Greek word telo, which indicates a desire. It does not say that God will save every man, but that God desires to save every man. This is the thought we find here as well:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
​

Again, this does not say that God will save every man, but rather that he is willing that every man be saved. (notice also that the context shows that the day of the Lord will come once that opportunity is over. 2 Peter 3:10)

So, does the fact that it is God's will that every man be saved mean that every man will in fact be saved? No, it doesn't. Notice the following:

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:39)
​

It was the Father's will that none of those given to Christ would be lost, but this did not occur:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12)
​

Here, "but" means "except" and thus we see that none of those given to Christ was lost except Judas. Now, it was not God's will that Judas be lost, but that was Judas' choice. Hence, although it is God's will that all men will be saved, this does not mean that all men, who have the ability to choose life or death, will be saved.

Let's look at another commonly used passage:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15)
​

This passage is not applicable to "all men" but rather those men who have the foundation of Christ correct (that is, the teaching of salvation), but who are not correct in the things built upon that foundation (that is, things they teach in addition to salvation). This is the contextual meaning of the text. Paul laid the foundation, others were building upon it. As long as they had the foundation correct, they would be saved, if they, unlike their teachings, passed through the test of fire. Notice the context:

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.... If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:10, 14-15)
​

Paul preached the gospel basics (Jesus Christ and him crucified, 1 Corinthians 2:2), but the additional teachings he did not give to them, who were babes (1 Corinthians 3:1-2), but he shared those things only with those who were matured (1 Corinthians 2:6). He laid only the foundation... Now, others were building on it. As long as they had that foundation correct, they would receive a reward for additional teachings that were correct, but they would not receive a reward if their additional teachings were erroneous. This whole passage applies only to those who were building upon the gospel basics. It does not apply to every man.

Now, with that beiing said, I believe the phrase, "yet so as by fire," means that he himself will be saved if he passed the test of the fire himself. It does not mean he will be saved regardless "like one running through some fire" but the Greek says, "houtos (even so) de (but) hos (as) dia (through) puros (fire)." His works will be tested by fire, and so will he. If he passes the test, he will be saved. That this is the intended meaning is seen by what Paul says immediately afterwards:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;" (1 Corithians 3:15-17)
​

The testing of the fire is not to purge men of their wickedness, but to purge the world of wicked men.

Your brother in Christ,
Jason

Putting different texts of the Bible together to create ones own story is very dangerous. It is done on this forum all the time to try to sway people to ones particular belief. It is also the reason we have so many different Christian religious doctrines.

But I also never judge how the Holy Spirit works in others lives. I pray you are lead by the Holy Spirit in your search.

 

[Albion]

Let's examine some of the texts that seem to indicate to some that God will ultimately save every man.

Although I believe that the Bible is stronger on the usual view of salvation and condemnation, there are a number of verses in the NT that seem to suggest Universal Salvation. However, I see that most of the verses you've selected are not among them but rather are verses that either teach predestination or else the concept that God would prefer it if everybody were saved.

 

[Gettingtalents]

Before I address this point, it is a shame the tone that we take with one another. We belittle each other and talk to one another as if we are talking to enemies. Why do we treat each other the way we do? Is it necessary? Because we disagree on some point we must act like the other person is an idiot and treat them harshly? Why can't we just talk and, even when the person is not yet to a point of understanding we think they should have, show respect for one another? It is different when a man just rejects the truth outright, but sometimes men are honestly trying to come to honest conclusions and we do not show patience or love or respect in the way that we treat them. I have never seen this approach produce fruit. Instead, it builds a wall between men, and instead of edifying one another in love, we throw stones.

Neither does it say God 'WON'T save' every man as you are assuming. But it does say "ALL should come to repentance" and before that happens guess what must happen first?

2TI 2:25 ....God may perhaps grantthat they will repent and come to know the truth,

Hmmm, so they must "repent before" they can "know the truth". How does that fit in with your theology? Fits fine with mine.

Repentance means the changing of one's mind or of one's actions. I believe the meaning is that, through meek and gentle instructon, God may thereby, through his work in his servant, correct them (cause them to repent) and bring them into the knowledge of the truth (that is, they will trade the error for the truth).

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;" (2 Timothy 2:24-25)
​

When we read that God may grant them repentance, it is not necessary to interpret it as, "God may give them a heart to repent." Rather, the possiblity of a man repenting is afforded through the instruction of the Lord's servant. The repentace may be granted by God afterwards, when the men, having been implanted with the seeds of truth, turn from their error and accept that which the Lord's servant formerly taught. Hence, when it says, "if peradventure," this is to say, "teach them the truth even though they oppose you, because this God may, through that teaching, prick the man's heart in such a way that will cause the man to choose to repent." I see the repentance as something that our God is trying to give them, but this attempt, which has unsure results since man has the ability to harden his heart (Hebrews 3:15), is made possible through the teaching of the servant.

JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of God is necessary for us to come to Christ. How does the Father draw men? Through the gospel.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14)
​

Who then does the Father draw? I would argue that he draws men who are receptive of the truth. Nowhere do we read that God draws men abstractly (and I am not saying you make that argument).

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:44-45)
​

The drawing here is accomplished through God teaching men. Those who are taught of God, and who in response learn, come to Christ our Lord. That is, through the Spirit, working in us to preach, men are taught of God and are drawn.

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13)
​

Nowhere do we read that all that the Father draws will come to Christ... Instead, it says no man can come to Christ lest he be drawn first. This goes back to the point previously made regarding 2 Timothy 2:25. The teaching must come first, then the opportunity to accept the truth is afforded.

Do you make allowance for Christ choosing along with those whom the Father gavest?

JOH 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
​

Well, the Father gave Judas to Christ either way we slice it, which is evident in the "none, but" statement of Christ is John 17:12. He was not speaking to all of them because he knew that Judas was to betray him, but this does not mean that Christ did not choose Judas (Luke 6:13).

Maybe I can continue to share more deeply than you apparently do at this point. Fire purges the BAD OFF the land/person that produces those works/fruits.

HEB 6:7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

The 'land' which was burned, was never destroyed...it was cleansed/purified/saved.

I think this is a nice argument. I would point out that it says "whose end" is to be burned. The word end is translated from telos, which refers to the final state of a thing. Now, if we continue the analogy through and say that, when a field is burnt it is to make the soil more furtile for the next season, your point is sound. There is not indication, IMO, that such a carry over into the next season is intended. In Hebrews 8:9 he says, "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." This, to me, indicates that the burning of the field is not something that pertains to salvation. If it were to indicate a burning for renewal, this would pertain to salvation.

Furthermore, if we don't carry the analogy over into the next season, but consider the end condition of the field which did not produce fruit as burned, this is in line with what we read elsewere:

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:... If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:2, 6)
​

The branch is not renewed after burning.

"Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable." (Luke 3:17)
​

The chaff is not renewed.

Your brother in Christ,
Jason

 

[Hillsage]

Before I address this point, it is a shame the tone that we take with one another.

You are absolutely correct and I humbly apologize.

Repentance means the changing of one's mind or of one's actions. I believe the meaning is that, through meek and gentle instructon, God may thereby, through his work in his servant, correct them (cause them to repent) and bring them into the knowledge of the truth (that is, they will trade the error for the truth).

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;" (2 Timothy 2:24-25)​

I don't really like the NIV but it really does emphasize the correct understanding of "peradventure" in this verse, I believe.
​

NIV 2TI 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

Your opinion that it's our persuasiveness that accomplishes that, instead of God's revelation, is not consistent with scripture IMO. Not even Jesus convinced Peter that Jesus was the Christ.

MAT 16:16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon BarJona! For flesh and blood (JESUS) has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

When we read that God may grant them repentance, it is not necessary to interpret it as, "God may give them a heart to repent."

I disagree, but I do agree with scripture. And I believe scripture disagrees with your conclusion.

ROM 10:10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

Rather, the possiblity of a man repenting is afforded through the instruction of the Lord's servant. The repentace may be granted by God afterwards, when the men, having been implanted with the seeds of truth, turn from their error and accept that which the Lord's servant formerly taught.

I think that the admonition of Paul in how we are to witness has more to do with our attitude toward the lost than it does to the process of salvation. According to the following scripture that is dealing with salvation, or "growth", according to the following scripture it is God's doing.

1CO 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

Hence, when it says, "if peradventure," this is to say, "teach them the truth even though they oppose you, because this God may, through that teaching, prick the man's heart in such a way that will cause the man to choose to repent." I see the repentance as something that our God is trying to give them, but this attempt,

They can't, because they are captives.

2TI 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

So I'm of the opinion that it isn't God pricking their heart as you think. I think it is Him "setting the captive free" so they can believe 'the first time'.

which has unsure results since man has the ability to harden his heart (Hebrews 3:15), is made possible through the teaching of the servant.

This verse is talking to/about believers...you are applying it to unbelievers.

My interpretation of 2Ti 2:26, in context, is that it was speaking to unbelievers who were 'elected' captives (2:10)
​

The drawing of God is necessary for us to come to Christ. How does the Father draw men? Through the gospel.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14)​

Then according to your interpretation of this verse EVERYONE who hears a preacher should believe. But we both know that is not reality. Reality is we may preach, but whether they 'hear' or not is up to God and not us. Read your verse in context and see the principle laid out.

ROM 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The 'word' for "word" here is rhema and not logos. The gospel is logos. The word that proceeds from the mouth of the Father is the word that gives one faith to believe.

DEU 8:3 And he humbled thee,...that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth (present progressive tense) out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
​

Who then does the Father draw? I would argue that he draws/HELKUO men who are receptive of the truth. Nowhere do we read that God draws men abstractly (and I am not saying you make that argument).

When speaking to unbelievers, contextually, I think scripture disagrees.

ROM 3:11 no one understands, no one seeks for God.

Also you need to look up the definition of "draw". It doesn't mean some sort of wooing by God with 'the message'. It is a forceful event like a man 'drawing' his sword. The sword has nothing to say about it.

1670 helkuo: to drag (lit. or fig.)

The word is in scripture 8X and in every instance, but one, the thing/person being drawn/dragged obviously has no say in the matter. And this definition should also be interpreted the same way IMO.

ACT 21:30 Then all the city was aroused, and the people ran together; they seized Paul and drew/dragged/helkuo him out of the temple,...

Again this is way too long, so I'm going to stop, having only dealt with 2/3 of your post. Like I said earlier, you need to shorten up your responses so we can deal with them in the depth that they deserve. I hope that my last response is revealing that to you. I look forward to your response. But please don't just counter with more stuff. Let's deal with what I've already presented and show me where I'm wrong, if you can....like brothers. I do mean that, GT.

 

[Hillsage]

Originally Posted by Gettingtalents

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

And as I already pointed out this "word" is LOGOS and not RHEMA. And RHEMA is the word that initially saves by causing you to have the faith to believe.
​

Nowhere do we read that all that the Father draws will come to Christ...

And where do we read that they won't?

Well, the Father gave Judas to Christ either way we slice it, which is evident in the "none, but" statement of Christ is John 17:12. He was not speaking to all of them because he knew that Judas was to betray him, but this does not mean that Christ did not choose Judas (Luke 6:13).

You make a good point, because it is the same Greek word for "choose" in my verse as well as yours. So we really have to question whether or not the Father gave Judas to Jesus, to begin with?

I think this is a nice argument. I would point out that it says "whose end" is to be burned. The word end is translated from telos, which refers to the final state of a thing.

I agree that the final state of every corrupted thing is to go to the fire. But the question is what happens to the 'corrupted' thing AFTER the fire has purified it? It is no longer a 'corrupt' thing I believe.

Now, if we continue the analogy through and say that, when a field is burnt it is to make the soil more furtile for the next season, your point is sound. There is not indication, IMO, that such a carry over into the next season is intended. In Hebrews 8:9 he says, "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." This, to me, indicates that the burning of the field is not something that pertains to salvation. If it were to indicate a burning for renewal, this would pertain to salvation.

Actually if you will read, not 8:9 which you addressed incorrectly, but 6:8-11 you will find that it is talking about us working out our salvation here and now so that it doesn't have to be burned off later. This is what I was referring to in post #2 when I said 1Tim 4:10 was talking about being 'most" saved if people continue to believe and work out the salvation of their soul with fear and trembling.... subsequent to the initial salvation of their spirit (another topic).

3122 malista adv.) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

Furthermore, if we don't carry the analogy over into the next season, but consider the end condition of the field which did not produce fruit as burned, this is in line with what we read elsewere:

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:... If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:2, 6)
​

The branch is not renewed after burning.

So, in your opinion is initial salvation dependent upon bearing fruit initially? Or is Jesus talking about something subsequent to initial salvation...eg. being born again, or becoming a branch to begin with...and a 'babe in Christ'? IOW now we go back to what you said about the person in 1Cor 3 who was a 'branch' foundationally, but was "saved, yet though as by fire"? That's what I believe.

"Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable." (Luke 3:17)
​

The chaff is not renewed.

Read that in context. It is speaking of YOU being baptized with FIRE. Why? So the sin which doth cling to you can be separated and BURNED. You are the wheat here, and not the chaff. And the chaff is sin and not unsaved people.

LUK 3:16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water; but he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Now I've dealt with your whole post. But I am not going to continue to post such long rebuttals. They are just too time consuming and tire my eyes.

 

[Gettingtalents]

I don't really like the NIV but it really does emphasize the correct understanding of "peradventure" in this verse, I believe.

NIV 2TI 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

​

Your opinion that it's our persuasiveness that accomplishes that, instead of God's revelation, is not consistent with scripture IMO. Not even Jesus convinced Peter that Jesus was the Christ.

I wouldn't say that our persuasiveness causes that, but that the teaching comes before the repentance. The teaching being the foundation that God cultivates in an attempt to cause the man to repent. If God causes men to repent of his own accord without the choice of the individual, then why not just cause all to repent now? Rather, I see God as attempting to persuade men, and the indefiniteness being due to the uncertainty that they man will himself be persuaded.

"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God." (2 Corinthians 5:20)

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye." (Ezekiel 18:32)
​

In this last passage, we see God desiring them to be saved, and he says he has no pleasure in their death, ad exhorts them to turn from evil so that they will live. This shows that God is desirous of a thing, but whether that thing will be hinges upon the decisions of men.

Again this is way too long, so I'm going to stop, having only dealt with 2/3 of your post. Like I said earlier, you need to shorten up your responses so we can deal with them in the depth that they deserve. I hope that my last response is revealing that to you. I look forward to your response. But please don't just counter with more stuff. Let's deal with what I've already presented and show me where I'm wrong, if you can....like brothers. I do mean that, GT.

Agreed! I really want to look into the usage of the word for "draw" that you brought up. That point stood out to me. However, I am stopping this post here (unless there is some specific point you want to discuss first instead of the things I wrote above).

Your brother in Christ,
Jason

 

[Hillsage]

I wouldn't say that our persuasiveness causes that, but that the teaching comes before the repentance. The teaching being the foundation that God cultivates in an attempt to cause the man to repent.

I agree that teaching comes before repentance. But I also think that 'having ears that can hear' is more up to God than it is us.

MAR 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables;
12 so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and MAY indeed hear BUT NOT understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven."

And this underlined part of the verse above is crucial. Why wouldn't God want everyone "to turn again"/repent, "and be forgiven"? How do you answer this verse?
Orthodoxy does error, when they admit this verse above is bible, but deny that God can't finish saving all in the ages to come according to HIS time plan, and not theirs.

If God causes men to repent of his own accord without the choice of the individual,

Oh I don't believe he makes them repent without influencing them first. It is never 'against' someones choice.

PHI 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Granted, the verse above is speaking to believers, but I'm sure you'd apply this principle to unbelievers also, wouldn't you? If you say yes, then here we see God works on your will to be in agreement to His will...right?

then why not just cause all to repent now?

That simply isn't His plan IMO. Why did the chosen/saved Jews ALL come through Abraham? Why wasn't anyone else on the face of the earth at that time...chosen??? What salvation was afforded all those who weren't 'chosen' and born Jews, as well as those whom God allowed to be born in the NT era without ever hearing 'the gospel' or 'the only name' by which one might be saved. Those are questions that help me to believe that God does have a plan that's better than the one orthodoxy teaches.

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye." (Ezekiel 18:32)
In this last passage, we see God desiring them to be saved, and he says he has no pleasure in their death, ad exhorts them to turn from evil so that they will live. This shows that God is desirous of a thing, but whether that thing will be hinges upon the decisions of men.

But this verse wasn't speaking to the unsaved Gentiles, it was speaking to 'the chosen/saved' Jews. And what made them 'chosen'? It was God's choosing and not theirs that made these choices pertaining 'to salvation' available to them. And it wasn't for a salvation in the hereafter either. The only salvation the Jews believed in, was only available for the 'here and now'. The Sadducee s didn't even believe their was a resurrection.

Agreed! I really want to look into the usage of the word for "draw" that you brought up. That point stood out to me. However, I am stopping this post here (unless there is some specific point you want to discuss first instead of the things I wrote above).

A study of "draw" shouldn't take too long. Let me know what you find.

 

[JoJo50]

Jason

Jehovah God does want ALL to be save, this is why he want us to change our ways ,(Ezek.33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel)? But many won’t , many want to do their own thing, live the way the choose. Many wants to live as everyone else does,
but we shouldn't...(1John 2:15,16- Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world). Which means they have NO time for Jehovah God… or Jesus.

Jehovah’s word says… (“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God”, Rom.12:2). But many DON’T want to change even their old way of thinking. Which will cost them their lives, (2Tim.4:3,4- For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables).

sad!… because God’s word shows he’ll help one to believe the lies they choose. Since they don’t want to change,(2Thess.2:10-12, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness).

Many who sits in their places of worship, knows how they’re living. They can fool their spiritual sisters and brothers. But as Jehovah showed, he’s NOT one to play will ,(Gal.6:7 -Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap). And Jesus don’t want to hear it either ,(Matt.7:22,23- Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity). Matt.24:13 -But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved). peace

 

[Gettingtalents]

Jehovah God does want ALL to be save, this is why he want us to change our ways ,(Ezek.33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel)? But many won’t , many want to do their own thing, live the way the choose. Many wants to live as everyone else does,
but we shouldn't...(1John 2:15,16- Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world). Which means they have NO time for Jehovah God… or Jesus.

Jehovah’s word says… (“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God”, Rom.12:2). But many DON’T want to change even their old way of thinking. Which will cost them their lives, (2Tim.4:3,4- For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables).

sad!… because God’s word shows he’ll help one to believe the lies they choose. Since they don’t want to change,(2Thess.2:10-12, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness).

Many who sits in their places of worship, knows how they’re living. They can fool their spiritual sisters and brothers. But as Jehovah showed, he’s NOT one to play will ,(Gal.6:7 -Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap). And Jesus don’t want to hear it either ,(Matt.7:22,23- Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity). Matt.24:13 -But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved). peace

Amen, Sister.