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Wikileaks and Julian Assange

What are your thoughts on Wikileaks?

  • The site should be shut down, Assange should be sent to Gitmo, if not outright killed, for treason.

  • Wikileaks provides an extra level of scrutiny and oversight.

  • Some stuff they publish the public has a right to know, but some of it should stay secret.


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Yoder777

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Hans Talhoffer

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Wikileaks revealed the video of air strikes that killed civilians in Iraq:
July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While the media is focusing on Bradley Manning's release of diplomatic cables, it's ignoring his release of the video, the thing that the establishment is perhaps really upset about.
And so they should be. Demonising our soldiers and setting them up for retribution seems a pretty good example of endangering our military to me.

When the terrorists behead our male soldiers and put our female soldiers in rape camps and cite this video as justification, I guess you'll accept that as OK?
 
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Yoder777

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And so they should be. Demonising our soldiers and setting them up for retribution seems a pretty good example of endangering our military to me.

When the terrorists behead our male soldiers and put our female soldiers in rape camps and cite this video as justification, I guess you'll accept that as OK?

No, I definitely do not accept it as ok. I don't see how revealing the truth about civilian deaths in Iraq is equal to demonizing.
 
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Hans Talhoffer

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No, I definitely do not accept it as ok. I don't see how revealing the truth about civilian deaths in Iraq is equal to demonizing.
Its hard for me to help you when you won't accept the reality, that this video WILL be used as justification for the next round of atrocities against our brave men and women, by the Jihadis AND their apologist/traitors in the US.
 
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Yoder777

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Its hard for me to help you when you won't accept the reality, that this video WILL be used as justification for the next round of atrocities against our brave men and women, by the Jihadis AND their apologist/traitors in the US.

A just war should be fought justly. The United States should not avoid responsibility in preventing the needless death of civilians.
 
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Yoder777

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Hans Talhoffer

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Hans Talhoffer

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What I am saying is that conservatives shouldn't just outright hate Wikileaks.
Of course not. when wikileaks is providing a valuable service like breaking the news on Climategate, thats fine. But when it divulges national secrets that dorecly effect the safety and lives of our soldiers and interests, thats treason. You don't go around letting murderers off because they donated a toy at Christmas. Same deal here. No one is saying wikileaks have never done anything good, just that the bad they have done far outweighs the good.
 
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Yoder777

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Of course not. when wikileaks is providing a valuable service like breaking the news on Climategate, thats fine. But when it divulges national secrets that dorecly effect the safety and lives of our soldiers and interests, thats treason. You don't go around letting murderers off because they donated a toy at Christmas. Same deal here. No one is saying wikileaks have never done anything good, just that the bad they have done far outweighs the good.

Showing video of civilians being killed in Iraq isn't a bad thing. Is this a tragedy that could have been avoided? Were our soldiers showing proper conduct in war?

July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Hans Talhoffer

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Showing video of civilians being killed in Iraq isn't a bad thing. Is this a tragedy that could have been avoided? Were our soldiers showing proper conduct in war?

July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Once again, it is a bad thing because it endangers our soldier. For every female soldier who ends up in a Taliban rape camp, this video will be trotted out, stripped of context, and used as justification for their barbarity.
 
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Yoder777

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Once again, it is a bad thing because it endangers our soldier. For every female soldier who ends up in a Taliban rape camp, this video will be trotted out, stripped of context, and used as justification for their barbarity.

The rules of engagement need to be changed.

THE WIKILEAKS VIDEO: READING THE REPORT
Posted by Raffi Khatchadourian

The military has now released the findings of its “informal” legal investigation into Operation ILAAJ (CURE), a mission that took place in Baghdad in 2007, and was documented by a video camera mounted on an Apache helicopter. (The footage was publicized by WikiLeaks earlier this week.) As far as I can tell, the military has not released the accompanying investigatory materials, such as the sworn statements of the soldiers involved or the battle damage assessment. It is hard to make a complete judgment of these findings without all the evidence supporting it, but there are a few details worth noting.

The report notes that the gunner in the Apache “perceived an escalation of the immediate threat to our ground troops after observing an individual peering around a building, preparing to fire an RPG,” in this case at a Humvee that was about a block away. The individual appears to be Namir Noor-Eldeen, the Reuters photographer, and the perceived R.P.G. his telephoto lens. The findings note that soldiers in the Apache, “having observed a hostile act,” then “continued to transition for the attack.”

These observations are in one sense confirmed by the video, but in another they are undermined by it. They omit that the Apache had been given the authority to shoot the men, and was maneuvering to do so before Noor-Eldeen was seen peering around the building. A more in-depth legal review might ask: What were the conditions on the ground that brought about the permission to fire in the first place? At that earlier point, the pilots saw a couple of men with “weapons”—in their words, AK-47s—ambling around with a large group of people. Was the authority to attack all of them at that time justified?

The report also notes that “a black van arrived to retrieve one of the wounded insurgents.” The van was not black (even though it appears that way in the black-and-white video), and the wounded man who was being rescued, we now have strong reason to believe, was not an insurgent but a Reuters journalist named Saeed Chmagh. Family members of people in the van—along with two children who were in it, who survived—have said that the driver lived nearby, was driving his children to a tutoring session at a local school, and used his vehicle as a part-time taxi. Was he going to the scene of the attack to retrieve anyone specific, or did he drive by incidentally and retrieve an injured man who was struggling for his life on the ground? The choice of language is significant.

This document raises a more fundamental question about how civilian deaths are investigated: Must a legal inquiry first attempt to establish the facts, then measure the soldier’s perceptions against those facts, to conclude whether the perceptions were reasonable? It would seem so. If the soldiers reasonably apprehended a threat, and acted with necessary force, then it’s possible to conclude that a tragic misunderstanding occurred. If they did not reasonably perceive a threat, or if they acted with disproportionate force, then something more troubling happened, and the incident requires further legal scrutiny. In this inquiry, the facts and the soldier’s perceptions are mixed together with little distinction, so it is hard to see how the investigating officer could determine what was reasonable about the perceptions and what was not. The imprecision makes this document appear sloppy, whether its conclusions are justified or not.

There is another telling detail. This legal inquiry focusses only upon the deaths of the two Reuters journalists. It notes that the van was “completely disabled,” but it does not acknowledge that there were children inside the van, and that they were wounded, and that the wounding of children itself might be the object of legal analysis. It does not address the use of three Hellfire missiles to attack a building (which, as I pointed out in a post earlier this week, appears to be the most indiscriminate use of lethal force in the video.) Reportedly, the building was inhabited by three families. CNN has reported that the military is currently analyzing the video in it entirety. It will be interesting to see how the military’s analysis will address some of these other issues.
News Desk: The WikiLeaks Video: Reading the Report : The New Yorker
 
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Hans Talhoffer

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Yes and we should execute those who dare to question the infallible authority of the State!
Don't be obtuse. I never said anything about the state being infalible. I clearly said that Assange should be given a fair trial before his execution. Assuming operational circumstances allow, of course.
 
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