Wigglesworth

[Svt4Him]

Recently I've heard of Sws alledged violence being held up as an excuse to justify Bentleys violence

If Smith Wigglesworth attacked someone with an axe under the guise of praying for their healing, does that mean we should do the same. From what I've read of Smith Wigglesworth, he was an awesome man of faith. That said, he was human, and he was falliable. Just because he may have done something doesnt mean it was right, or something that should be repeated by those who come after.


The one we should be taking our example from is Jesus Christ. And as far as I know He didnt have the need to kick the heck out of the people He healed.


I have several clients who are interested in the christian faith and in the process of exploring by going to a church. Both of these clients come from very abusive back grounds, abusive parents, abusive partners, the worst sort of abuse, I know for a fact if they saw the preacher kicking slapping, or even shoving people, that would be them gone not just from that church, but from christianity for ever.


I dont care how many famous people have shoved or kicked or slapped people in the name of healing, its not right, and its certainly not how Jesus would be advocating for it to be done.

What if they saw someone spit in mud then smack it on their eyes? How about asking to whack arrows on the ground? How about lying around naked eating dung? Let me say though it's not people's actions that keep others from Christ, it's sin and sin alone.

A gnat? I guess in the course of events it is a gnat, because its no big deal if you change your mind........but its a pretty big gnat in this conversation because you said completely opposite things which tends to make in unclear as to what your opinion is on the topic of Wigglesworth.

It's a gnat because it's not a camel, and you probably have never ridden a camel have you?

Sorry, just trying to make sense of it as well.

 

[Tenebrae]

Let me say though it's not people's actions that keep others from Christ, it's sin and sin alone.

Rubbish

Christians are the visible representative of Christ on earth, if they kick people or hit people and claim that this is all apart of their faith, would you want to be a part of that

Claiming that the actions of christians do not impact on whether non christians want to know more about Christ is a cop out.


It was a wonderful christian man that demanded I remove my necklace before I entered church was instrumental in me heading down a pagan path.


The wonderful christian woman who dropped me like a hot potato when i mentioned the bit in my past where I used to have sex for money was also instrumental in me heading down a pagan path.


The silly woman who asked me what I'd done with all the body from my human sacrifices was also instrumental in me running from Christ for so long. My logic was that if this christian woman couldnt take the time to figure out what (as a pagan) I actually believed, then why the heck would I ever believe any thing she said about the one known as Christ


Luckily Jesus can rise about his terrible public relations team.


However the idea that people dont reject Christ based on the actions of those claiming to be his followers is a cop out, and a great way for christians to avoid taking reponsbility for their actions.

 

[Svt4Him]

Rubbish

Christians are the visible representative of Christ on earth, if they kick people or hit people and claim that this is all apart of their faith, would you want to be a part of that

Claiming that the actions of christians do not impact on whether non christians want to know more about Christ is a cop out.


It was a wonderful christian man that demanded I remove my necklace before I entered church was instrumental in me heading down a pagan path.


The wonderful christian woman who dropped me like a hot potato when i mentioned the bit in my past where I used to have sex for money was also instrumental in me heading down a pagan path.


The silly woman who asked me what I'd done with all the body from my human sacrifices was also instrumental in me running from Christ for so long. My logic was that if this christian woman couldnt take the time to figure out what (as a pagan) I actually believed, then why the heck would I ever believe any thing she said about the one known as Christ


Luckily Jesus can rise about his terrible public relations team.


However the idea that people dont reject Christ based on the actions of those claiming to be his followers is a cop out, and a great way for christians to avoid taking reponsbility for their actions.

Rubbish? I was only quoting Jesus when He said the reason the darkness doesn't come to the light is because the light will expose the deeds of darkness. Unless you know of somewhere else it says people are responsible for the salvation of others?

8Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

Notice it doesn't say anywhere that whoever lives by the truth...and a church that shows the right way to live...comes into the light.

 

[Tenebrae]

...

 

[JimB]

Ha, at least you didn't get the "I don't know what you mean" line/icon.

.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Ha, at least you didn't get the "I don't know what you mean" line/icon.

 

[RhemaWarrior]

Rubbish? I was only quoting Jesus when He said the reason the darkness doesn't come to the light is because the light will expose the deeds of darkness. Unless you know of somewhere else it says people are responsible for the salvation of others?

8Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

Notice it doesn't say anywhere that whoever lives by the truth...and a church that shows the right way to live...comes into the light.

1 Tim 6:1
1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.

HE is saying:

• Your conduct on the Job is for the purpose of winning the LOST!

Rom 2:17-24
Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.

Rom 2:24 says:
"The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you".

That tells me it is bad Christian conduct that causes people to blasphemy they name and doctrine of God.

People are speaking reproachfully against God because:

• Of the conduct of Christians.
• The harvest is being affected because those who claim to know the truth are not walking in the truth.

1 Peter 3:1
1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
NKJV

I believe conduct has more to do with winning people than most Christians give it credit.

 

[Tenebrae]

1 Tim 6:1
1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed.

HE is saying:

• Your conduct on the Job is for the purpose of winning the LOST!

Rom 2:17-24
Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.

Rom 2:24 says:
"The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you".

That tells me it is bad Christian conduct that causes people to blasphemy they name and doctrine of God.

People are speaking reproachfully against God because:

• Of the conduct of Christians.
• The harvest is being affected because those who claim to know the truth are not walking in the truth.

1 Peter 3:1
1 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives,
NKJV

I believe conduct has more to do with winning people than most Christians give it credit.

Bingo! reps coming your way.

 

[Svt4Him]

I agree with this totally. But because someone blasphemes the name of God is no excuse for someone who is not Christian. To use an emotionally charged example, Hitler had 'God is with us' as a motto, America has 'In God we trust' the crusades had the church, none of these are Christian. As a matter of fact, Jesus said there would be a time where people will kill in God's name, but it was because they didn't know Him. But this is more for those who are not Christian yet claim the name of Christ. The verses below talk about Christians, but no where does it say that they are the reason people stay in sin, that is only addressed in John.

Now the verses below. Romans 2 is specifically addressing the value of the law, and those that try to keep it, as it says in the first verse:
17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God;...It is written in Isaiah, which is what was being referred to:

"And now what do I have here?" declares the LORD.
"For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock, [a] "
declares the LORD.
"And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.

As well as Ezek 36. But Ezek says what God is going to do about it:

16 Again the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman's monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, 'These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

So it again brings me back to the belief that God will defend Himself, and the only reason someone rejects God is because of sin, and sin alone.

 

[RhemaWarrior]

All I am saying is this, for a Christian character does matter and it can cause someone to reject or listen to what is being said. If our lives don't reflect what we are saying then people will say our words are empty. If our lives have not changed then our words are. The Word of God is so powerful it will cause change to ones life. A change that can be seen.

 

[Svt4Him]

But again I would say that the reason that darkness rejects the light is because it is evil.

For someone like S. Wigglesworth who would do some strange things, at the end of the day people repented of their sins, and were brought from a kingdom of darkness into a kingdom of light. For everyone who says that his actions turned them off of Christianity, or anyone elses actions, it is an excuse and it is because they are not really seeking truth. God resists the proud, gives grace to the humble, it is not dependant on others.

We do have a roll to play, I agree. But to think that a true seeker of truth will not find it because of the conduct of someone who may or may not be Christian is 'rubbish'.

 

[RhemaWarrior]

But again I would say that the reason that darkness rejects the light is because it is evil.

For someone like S. Wigglesworth who would do some strange things, at the end of the day people repented of their sins, and were brought from a kingdom of darkness into a kingdom of light. For everyone who says that his actions turned them off of Christianity, or anyone elses actions, it is an excuse and it is because they are not really seeking truth. God resists the proud, gives grace to the humble, it is not dependant on others.

We do have a roll to play, I agree. But to think that a true seeker of truth will not find it because of the conduct of someone who may or may not be Christian is 'rubbish'.

Rubbish that’s funny, I have only heard that word on T.V. I am not saying this derogatory by any means so please don’t take it that way, it was just amusing to me.

I hear what you are saying, but to me with Smith Wigglesworth it is as apples and oranges. Hitting someone or spitting in the dirt and rubbing it in there eyes because you are informed to do so by the Lord is different than having a bad Character. It’s not that God won’t move but it turns people away.

Example being Todd Bentley:
God moved, but because of his character it made people say things against what God did. They say God could not be doing these things because of this mans character is so bad.
“Rubbish” (I just had to use that word lol). Since his character was bad it caused people in the world(not Christians) say things against God.
The same is to be said about others over the years.

 

[Tenebrae]

But again I would say that the reason that darkness rejects the light is because it is evil.

.

Sometimes the reason why darkness rejects light is because it sees that the light isnt real light and is no different to darkness. Like a shiny gold christmas ornament, looks pretty, but eventually the glitter comes away.

The bible mentions it in plenty of places, however the term I think nails it is, "white washed sepulcres full of dead mans bones"

 

[Svt4Him]

Rubbish that’s funny, I have only heard that word on T.V. I am not saying this derogatory by any means so please don’t take it that way, it was just amusing to me.

Me too, but you missed when it was first used in the thread. The world will never accept the things of God, it is foolishness to them. You can pick holes in everyone, even someone who is a father in the faith like S. Wigglesworth, and there were critics of him (some still around...although the verdict is still out on whether they want to or don't want to honour him). At the end of the day, the things of God are against the things of the world, and unless they repent, they will think everything is foolish.

Sometimes the reason why darkness rejects light is because it sees that the light isnt real light and is no different to darkness. Like a shiny gold christmas ornament, looks pretty, but eventually the glitter comes away.

The bible mentions it in plenty of places, however the term I think nails it is, "white washed sepulcres full of dead mans bones"

Again I have to say that the Bible clearly says the reason light hates the darkness is because it will expose it's deeds for what they are. Anything above that seems to be against what Jesus Himself says.

 

[RhemaWarrior]

Me too, but you missed when it was first used in the thread. The world will never accept the things of God, it is foolishness to them. You can pick holes in everyone, even someone who is a father in the faith like S. Wigglesworth, and there were critics of him (some still around...although the verdict is still out on whether they want to or don't want to honour him). At the end of the day, the things of God are against the things of the world, and unless they repent, they will think everything is foolish.



Again I have to say that the Bible clearly says the reason light hates the darkness is because it will expose it's deeds for what they are. Anything above that seems to be against what Jesus Himself says.

I see what you are saying, but I also believe with the scriptures I brought out that character plays a big part. Since salvation is the Fathers heart and Paul was a minister to the Gentiles one of the largest areas Paul dealt with was on Character. I believe it was not only for the maturity of the believer but also to draw people by their very lives. I also believe that’s why faith without works is dead being alone. It is not that any works you do can save you, but because of the faith that you have it causes you to do good works and have a good character. It is this character that I believe is appealing to those that might be looking for the truth.

 

[Svt4Him]

I see what you are saying, but I also believe with the scriptures I brought out that character plays a big part. Since salvation is the Fathers heart and Paul was a minister to the Gentiles one of the largest areas Paul dealt with was on Character. I believe it was not only for the maturity of the believer but also to draw people by their very lives. I also believe that’s why faith without works is dead being alone. It is not that any works you do can save you, but because of the faith that you have it causes you to do good works and have a good character. It is this character that I believe is appealing to those that might be looking for the truth.

The Bible also says the world will know we are Christians by our love. But it doesn't say they will become Christians because they know we are. I think character is important, and it totally is, but it is not the reason people don't find Christ.

So the rest we'll have to agree to disagree. But thanks for the verses, they really are great, and I appreciate the debate.