Wifely Submission

.Sabre. · May 5, 2007

If he asked her to do something she wasn't comfortable with, she should explain why she is not comfortable with it and he should take it into account.

If he went and bought a huge plasma TV with the grocery money, she should give him what-for, because he's not being responsible like he should be.

As for what I believe about marriage/partnership: I believe in teamwork. Listening to each other, helping each other out, sharing responsibility--notice I do not mention power. Power isn't important with someone you love.

Mling · May 5, 2007

People are wired in different ways, and I know that some people do want/need to submit.
I am perfectly comfortable with a wife submitting to her husband to whatever degree is mutually beneficial, so long as they were both equals when they made the decision to live this way. That is, they negotiated what "submission" meant to them, and what was expected of both, before she started submitting.
I'm am equally comfortable with a man submitting in the same way to his wife, or a man to his husband or a woman to her wife, or anybody to their girlfriend/boyfriend.....etc.

But the decision needs to be made by both of them. What I object to is certain types of people (women and men, in this case) being forced into certain roles (submissive and dominant, respectively) by outside forces and without regard for their individual abilities and temperments.

noyb287 · May 5, 2007

to each their own i suppose...

kevin36 · May 6, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
I agree with you, but can you give some practical application examples?

Lisa

Happy to, if I can... but exactly what part do you want examples of...?

Kevin

EnemyPartyII · May 6, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
You cannot ask a Christian, "apart from God commanded it". That is just how it is for us.

There is no good reason other than God commanded it.

Lisa

I'm a Christian, and I disagree.

Indeed, I'll go so far as to say that if "God commanded it" is the ONLY reason for something, and it has no other logical explanation, then it isn't actually a command from God at all

kevin36 · May 6, 2007

quatona said:
I´m not a woman, so I can´t tell.
But as a man I can tell that this man wouldn´t want a submissive woman.

I saw this earlier, but I'm just now getting around to it...

Anyway, if it was a woman who submitted by biblical standards, not the worlds, yes, you would want her.

Submission doesn't mean being a door-mat, or a mindless slave or a drone. It's about love, and honor, and respect, and responsiblities, and not taking each other for granted, among many other things.

I am a man, and I have a wife who tries to be submissive AS PER the Bible, and that only makes me love and respect her more than ever.

Submission isn't demeaning at all; it's a show of enormous strength and faith.

God Bless
Kevin

EnemyPartyII · May 6, 2007

kevin36 said:
I saw this earlier, but I'm just now getting around to it...

Anyway, if it was a woman who submitted by biblical standards, not the worlds, yes, you would want her.

Submission doesn't mean being a door-mat, or a mindless slave or a drone. It's about love, and honor, and respect, and responsiblities, and not taking each other for granted, among many other things.

I am a man, and I have a wife who tries to be submissive AS PER the Bible, and that only makes me love and respect her more than ever.

Submission isn't demeaning at all; it's a show of enormous strength and faith.

God Bless
Kevin

Um... your description of how Biblical submission is different to doormat submission seems a little tenuous in terms of actual specifics... care to flesh it out a little?

quatona · May 6, 2007

kevin36 said:
I saw this earlier, but I'm just now getting around to it...

Anyway, if it was a woman who submitted by biblical standards, not the worlds, yes, you would want her.

If you´d be so kind to leave me the vote as to what I want and don´t want? I happen to be the world´s leading expert in this field.

Submission doesn't mean being a door-mat, or a mindless slave or a drone. It's about love, and honor, and respect, and responsiblities, and not taking each other for granted, among many other things.

Yet, it is postulated for wives and not for husbands. Since I am assuming - correct me if I am wrong - that love, honor, respect and responsibility and not taking each other granted goes both ways even in the Christian understanding of marriage and partnership, there must be more to this "submission" that is asked particularly from the wife.

I am a man, and I have a wife who tries to be submissive AS PER the Bible, and that only makes me love and respect her more than ever.

That´s your prerogative, but in my post I was speaking about what I want and don´t want.

Submission isn't demeaning at all; it's a show of enormous strength and faith.

So why aren´t you submissive since it apparently is the greatest thing since sliced bread?

Lisa0315 · May 6, 2007

kevin36 said:
I saw this earlier, but I'm just now getting around to it...

Anyway, if it was a woman who submitted by biblical standards, not the worlds, yes, you would want her.

Submission doesn't mean being a door-mat, or a mindless slave or a drone. It's about love, and honor, and respect, and responsiblities, and not taking each other for granted, among many other things.

I am a man, and I have a wife who tries to be submissive AS PER the Bible, and that only makes me love and respect her more than ever.

Submission isn't demeaning at all; it's a show of enormous strength and faith.

God Bless
Kevin

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to kevin36 again

EnemyPartyII · May 6, 2007

So why aren´t you submissive since it apparently is the greatest thing since sliced bread?

The killer question

kevin36 · May 6, 2007

quatona said:
So why aren´t you submissive since it apparently is the greatest thing since sliced bread?

I am submissive- to God. Or at least I try to be.

Men were put in the position of authority in a marriage, and they have their responsibilities, but being submissive to their wives isn't one them.

We should listen, and take their council, but we will be held accountable by God for both ourselves and them, to an extent, and we need to understand that.

Kevin

kevin36 · May 6, 2007

EnemyPartyII said:
Um... your description of how Biblical submission is different to doormat submission seems a little tenuous in terms of actual specifics... care to flesh it out a little?

A doormat does what it's told to do regardless of the circumstances, causes, or reasonings. It just lays there.

A Christian wife is allowing herself to be led by an imperfect husband who wants the best for both of them, and tries to live as God has instructed.

The wife should never allow herself to think that she should do anything immoral or against the Word of God at her husband's behest. She doesn't do anything just because he says so, but works together with him as a couple, understanding that he is the responsible party. If the man is doing as he should, there should be no reason the wife objects, other than on the principle that she is "submitting".

We are all under authority that we need to submit to. Why is this so hard to believe?

The Bible has a lot to say about both roles, and I could just start quoting verses, but that never seems to do much without true discussion.

What do you think submission means? When someone says a wife should submit, what does that entail to you, that causes you to disagree?

Kevin

kevin36 · May 6, 2007

quatona said:
Yet, it is postulated for wives and not for husbands. Since I am assuming - correct me if I am wrong - that love, honor, respect and responsibility and not taking each other granted goes both ways even in the Christian understanding of marriage and partnership, there must be more to this "submission" that is asked particularly from the wife.

Yeah, it's for the husband, too. Farther up this was brought up- the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the Church, whicj means even when she doesn't deserve it, no matter what she has done (even to him), and even to the point of death and beyond.

It seems that there is a trend here, even among the other guys, to put some sort of arrogance or ego-trip onto a man who has a woman that is BIBLICALLY submissive, and that's wrong.

Somewhere, somehow, the concept has become so distasteful that nobody wants to concede any authority over their lives, spiritual or otherwise.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and the Bible clearly states that the husband is the head of the woman the same way. Why the dispute?

Kevin

kevin36 · May 6, 2007

Tropical Wilds said:
My husband wouldn't want me to defer all decision making to him, nor would he want me to hold his role in a marriage as above mine as a "spiritual leader" of our family. He actually holds the stance that no person can know their own spirituality better than themselves, so he's supportive of the process I take, but certainly not in charge of it.

If it means defering all of your decisions to your husband and having him in charge of your spiritual health, it's certainly not about being assertive and independant...

If that's what's expected of the woman and that's part of her role of submission, then how is it the husband is not submitting to his wife if he's expected to do the same? And if he's submitting to his wife, why does he make the major decisions and take the reigns over the spiritual health of the house?

I don't know... If I were submissive as is defined Biblically, then my husband wouldn't respect me that much, and I know if he didn't respect me he certainly would not love me... So I think the submissive thing is only cracked up for some people with certain dominat/submissive personalities.

I don't think woman putting her spiritual life in the control of her husband and not making major household decisions, then not speaking up, is especially a sign of stength and it is a sign of faith... But a faith in what? There are different kinds of faith, and i"m not convinced that's one of the good signs of a good faith...

My last thoughts...

So, you say that your husband wouldn't respect you if you were submissive as the Bible tells you to be (your words). Apparently then, you are both actively, intentionally going against what Scripture tells us to do.

At that point it really doesn't matter who's in charge, I guess, because you're both wrong.

Oh, and I never said anything about defering every decision, or not speaking up or against... That's BLIND faith, and that should never be put in man, only God.

I'm done.

K

Lithium Hobo · May 6, 2007

Scripture or not, where's the fun in having a wife who just...out right submits? Show me a woman who bows down before me and fetches me my slippers and makes me a sandwhich on command and I'm bored and disinterested. Show me a woman who challenges me and accepts me as her equal and I'll take her out to dinner.

quatona · May 6, 2007

kevin36 said:
Yeah, it's for the husband, too. Farther up this was brought up- the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the Church, whicj means even when she doesn't deserve it, no matter what she has done (even to him), and even to the point of death and beyond.

Interesting analogy: man ~ Christ, woman ~ church.

It seems that there is a trend here, even among the other guys, to put some sort of arrogance or ego-trip onto a man who has a woman that is BIBLICALLY submissive, and that's wrong.

Please don´t bring up accusations that haven´t been made. So far I just said that I don´t want a submissive woman, plus I criticized you for making it sound as though there were nothing to the Christian idea beyond love, respect etc. Whilst in fact this is a hierarchical order: woman submits to man - man submits to Christ.
Hierarchy of that sort between man and woman is not my kind of thing. Your personal mindset or motivation are none of my concern, and don´t belong in a discussion. That´s why I didn´t say anything about it, and that´s why I take issue with addressing it instead of adressing that which I say.

Somewhere, somehow, the concept has become so distasteful that nobody wants to concede any authority over their lives, spiritual or otherwise.

This is not about "nobody conceding any authority" but about me not conceding default authority of men over women.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and the Bible clearly states that the husband is the head of the woman the same way. Why the dispute?

Because I disagree. And apparently some Christians disagree, too.

HolyGuardianAngels · May 6, 2007

Refer to Sacred Scripture and STUDY the life of JEZZEBEL . . .

MomWhoThinks · May 6, 2007

I don't know why people who don't believe in submission complain so much about it. It's like people who believe in birth control griping about the Catholic Church teaching against it. Just because YOU don't want to be obedient, why does it so bother you that others are?

quatona · May 6, 2007

MomWhoThinks said:
I don't know why people who don't believe in submission complain so much about it. It's like people who believe in birth control griping about the Catholic Church teaching against it. Just because YOU don't want to be obedient, why does it so bother you that others are?

Fair enough call, particularly since Christians themselves are notorious for being very reluctant when it comes to commenting on the nature of partnerships and the sexuality of others.

Just to make that entirely clear: If people find pleasure and fulfillment in submission and dominance, this doesn´t bother me at all. Just like it doesn´t bother me that some people find pleasure and fulfillment in meeting in a boxing arena and beating the crap out of each other.
What bothers me are
1. doctrines that make blanket statements that this is what people are to do (and, more generally, the assumption that the statement "god agrees with me" gives the claimer of such notions more authority, and more weight to the claim),
2. the claim made by one poster here that a submissive wife is what I want.

Lisa0315 · May 6, 2007

There is a huge misconception about submission here. It is not about fetching slippers and being a doormat. It is about mutual respect and the natural order of things. Men have gifts and women have gifts. Men have roles and women have roles. It is not about superiority or inferiority. It is not about equal rights or that poor little wife. It is about fulfilling the natural roles that have been assigned to us by God. It is in no way demeaning to the wife to submit to her husband. It is in no way raising the husband up to some kind of mini-king within the home. It is simply about the gifts that God has given to us.

Lisa

Wifely Submission

Should a Christian wife obey and submit to her husband at all times?

Yes, without question regardless of what the husband commands.

Only if the husband is a Christian or if he isn't asking for something immoral.

Submission/obedience is archaic and overrated.

Other/Not sure

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