wicca

[Havoc]

Once again you are looking at it from your point of view and from your criteria. All that will lead you to is your beliefs, not ours. I won't comment of the futility of using your book to figure out our beliefs.

Mosy Wiccans believe in the Divine as being everything. Nature being a part of everything means nature is a part of the Divine as are we. To us the Divine is both transcendant and immanent.

I know you don't believe the same as we do, that's fine. Please don't insult our intelligence by trying to use your scriptures to "prove" that what I've described is "wrong".

 

[Kira Faye]

Peace guys!

 

[Isaiah 53]

Once again you are looking at it from your point of view and from your criteria. All that will lead you to is your beliefs, not ours. I won't comment of the futility of using your book to figure out our beliefs.

Mosy Wiccans believe in the Divine as being everything. Nature being a part of everything means nature is a part of the Divine as are we. To us the Divine is both transcendant and immanent.

I know you don't believe the same as we do, that's fine. Please don't insult our intelligence by trying to use your scriptures to "prove" that what I've described is "wrong".

Havoc,

Please understand I am not trying to insult you. I am trying to show you things from a Christian perspective. Christianity faith/practice is not soley based on reading the Bible!! It is a personel relationship with Jesus Christ!! I feel His presence, He speaks to me, He gives me strength and answers my prayers. I read the word everyday, because God uses it to speak to me and to teach me about His character so that I can know Him better!!! It is a very intimate and close relationship that we as Christians have with God.

I understand your perspective somewhat (I am not saying this to demean you) because I was there. I had no real understanding about Christianity or Christ!! I too thought they were a bunch of 'Bible-thumping' 'fire and brimstone', 'holier than thou' people, who were narrow minded and unforgiving. But I found out differently!! Believe me those people still exist in Christianity, but that is not what the faith is based on. It is a personel relationship with Christ!!! He did not teach us to be condesending or condemning of individuals!! He taught us to love and treat others as we were treating ourselves. We are to teach against false 'gods' and false teachings.

This is the point I hope you carry with you. I do not hate you or wish to argue with you. I only want everyone to realize the love, grace, and blessings waiting for them when they accept Christ. HE LOVES YOU AS YOU ARE, BUT DOES NOT WANT YOU TO STAY THAT WAY!!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Havoc]

Havoc,

Please understand I am not trying to insult you.

But yet you manage to with practically every post.

I am trying to show you things from a Christian perspective. Christianity faith/practice is not soley based on reading the Bible!! It is a personel relationship with Jesus Christ!! I feel His presence, He speaks to me, He gives me strength and answers my prayers. I read the word everyday, because God uses it to speak to me and to teach me about His character so that I can know Him better!!! It is a very intimate and close relationship that we as Christians have with God.

Sounds very much like the intimate, personal relationship I have with God and Goddesss, but without the bigotry.

I understand your perspective somewhat (I am not saying this to demean you) because I was there. I had no real understanding about Christianity or Christ!! I too thought they were a bunch of 'Bible-thumping' 'fire and brimstone', 'holier than thou' people, who were narrow minded and unforgiving. But I found out differently!! Believe me those people still exist in Christianity, but that is not what the faith is based on. It is a personel relationship with Christ!!!

Unfortunatly I don't have the advantage of not understanding about Christianity or Christ. I was brought up in a Bible-believing, Bornagain, Evangelical Christian household and I believed in the doctrine and my own salvation for twenty years before I realised your God wasn't there.

He did not teach us to be condesending or condemning of individuals!!

Then why be that way? Calling my faith false when you've got nothing to support your claim of truth is condescending. Saying I'm going to hell is condemning.

He taught us to love and treat others as we were treating ourselves. We are to teach against false 'gods' and false teachings.

May your God save me from the "love" of his followers.

This is the point I hope you carry with you. I do not hate you or wish to argue with you. I only want everyone to realize the love, grace, and blessings waiting for them when they accept Christ. HE LOVES YOU AS YOU ARE, BUT DOES NOT WANT YOU TO STAY THAT WAY!!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

I'm perfectly fine the way I am thanks, and my God doesn't need to kill himself, or condemn those I love to eternal torment to get my attention.

 

[Rae]

It is a personel relationship with Jesus Christ!!
--Great. I have a personal relationship with my Gods, too. Fun, isn't it?

 

[Isaiah 53]

I am posting this reply to both Havoc and Rae (my sister-in-law's name is Rae! )

Havoc, you seem to be very angry at me with no real cause. If you are not strong enough in your faith to stand against criticism, then I am sorry. But you will not deter me from my faith or what I know to be the TRUTH!! I never once said you were going to hell, did I? If I did I appologize, I do not believe in trying to scare people into Salvation. I believe in loving them for the Lord. I am praying for you!! You said that you were brought up in a Christian home. I am envious, I was brought up in a home with no faith or religion of any kind. God found me, beaten and bleeding from my sin and restored me. He can restore you as well.

I am going to generalize here because of the broad belief systems of many pagans/wiccans so please dont be offened. But, many Wiccans follow 'gods' or 'goddesses' that 'teach' them that they can do whatever they please as long as they don't hurt anyone else. That it does not matter what they do as long as they are a 'good' person they will reach some sort of 'heaven'. The thing this system of belief has in common with many others is that it is 'self-based' that is, "I am responsible for my own eternity".

Christianity, as you know, is different. We are taught that their is nothing we can do to save ourselves. We, by birth are sinners, and therfore our sin is always before us. This is true, just look at the world today! Jesus, who is without sin, left His throne in heaven and became a sinless man. Sacrificed Himself for you!! Three days later He rose from the dead and ascended back to Heaven!! Now if you place your faith in Him, you too will ascend into Heaven!!

Rae,

I have no doubt you share a close personel relationship with your 'gods' but my question is: How do you know who you are really worshiping? Yes, I believe it is Satan and his minion, but how do you know what you believe? Where do you get your source of information? How do you know who you are worshiping?

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Brooke]

Poor thread...

 

[Free_Spirit]

"Havoc, you seem to be very angry at me with no real cause. If you are not strong enough in your faith to stand against criticism, then I am sorry."

I think Havoc is just frustrated. It can be very grating to debate with people who claim to be right, without providing any single shred of proof.

"But you will not deter me from my faith or what I know to be the TRUTH!!"

How exactly do you "know" that your faith is the "TRUTH!!” ? If you simply rely on your own personal experiences, then we can do the same. Just because Christians claim that their religion is the "Truth" doesn't make it so.

Now, Isaiah, here's something that I’ve never really understood about Christianity, so if you could help me achieve a better understanding of your religion, I would be happy to hear it. Ok, there's my question:

Let's say that I committed a crime --bank robbery-- and got caught. But instead of serving my time in jail to pay my debt to society, I had someone else sit in jail for me, serving my sentence instead of me. Is that justice? According to Christian morality, it doesn't matter *who* pays the debt for sin (goats, bulls, or Christ himself), just as long as *someone* suffers for the crime. Therefore, as I see it, Christianity is based on the avoidance of responsibility, where the innocent take the punishment for the guilty, and to me that is highly unethical.

As a pagan, I always take responsibility for my actions. I know that if I harm someone, I will have to pay for my transgression, with no moral “loopholes” to avoid punishment. IMO, this is the way it should be: the guilty pay for their own crimes, and learn from their own mistakes. If you can clarify any of my misconceptions about your religion, please do. I would be interested to hear it.

 

[Free_Spirit]

"But, many Wiccans follow 'gods' or 'goddesses' that 'teach' them that they can do whatever they please as long as they don't hurt anyone else."

I think your referring to the Wiccan Rede, a long poem that ends with the phrase "An it harm none, do what ye will." I think that most Christians don't really understand what this means. The Rede covers every moral law in the Bible, plus many more. Obviously, we are forbidden from committing murder, theft, assault, and anything else that overtly "harms" another person. But the Rede also applies to self. Therefore, for me, the Rede also prohibits drug use and smoking, promiscuous sex, hatred and jealousy, and a multitude of other vices that harm the body and soul. It isn't as easy to follow the Rede as many Christians think. Just because we don't have our "Laws" written out in Old Testament style Commandments, doesn't mean they don't exist.

And lastly, just for the record, the Wiccan Rede and the Satanic Law "Do what thou wilt, is the whole of the law" are *vastly* different. Just because they are both written in mock Old English doesn't mean that they have the same meaning. The Satanic Law has no moral guidance, no prohibition of harm, whereas Wiccans are bound by a strict moral code, so the two Laws are nothing alike.

 

[Isaiah 53]

I think Havoc is just frustrated. It can be very grating to debate with people who claim to be right, without providing any single shred of proof. The Bible is proof. That is something real and tangible. How can a wiccan explain their postion?

How exactly do you "know" that your faith is the "TRUTH!!” ? If you simply rely on your own personal experiences, then we can do the same. Just because Christians claim that their religion is the "Truth" doesn't make it so.

Now, Isaiah, here's something that I’ve never really understood about Christianity, so if you could help me achieve a better understanding of your religion, I would be happy to hear it. Ok, there's my question:

Let's say that I committed a crime --bank robbery-- and got caught. But instead of serving my time in jail to pay my debt to society, I had someone else sit in jail for me, serving my sentence instead of me. Is that justice? According to Christian morality, it doesn't matter *who* pays the debt for sin (goats, bulls, or Christ himself Christianity does not require or respect the sacrifice of animals), just as long as *someone* suffers for the crime. Therefore, as I see it, Christianity is based on the avoidance of responsibility, where the innocent take the punishment for the guilty, and to me that is highly unethical. That is the fullness of the Love of God. You're right, by all means I should have to pay for the sins I have committed against God. But from the very beginning God forknew the need for a Savior. He loves us as His children; children make mistakes. He wants to forgive us our transgressions but cannot look upon sin. Therefore, He loves us so much He paid the price of sin for us. Does that mean that their are no consequences for sin? No, if I sin, I will pay the consequence here on earth, but I am forgiven by my Father and will pay no penalty in eternity. Think of your own children (if you have any, if not imagine that you do) if they make mistakes do you forgive them? Even if they dont deserve it, we still do. Now, being how we are evil by nature and God is Holy, how much greater is His love?

As a pagan, I always take responsibility for my actions. I know that if I harm someone, I will have to pay for my transgression, with no moral “loopholes” to avoid punishment. IMO, this is the way it should be: the guilty pay for their own crimes, and learn from their own mistakes. If you can clarify any of my misconceptions about your religion, please do. I would be interested to hear it. Being a Christian does not give us a 'free ticket to sin' in fact the opposite is true. Here is an anology: A bunch of neighborhood kids and your son are playing outside. The group of them decide to do something wrong, say break a window. Are you going to be mad at the group, Yes. But who is going to recieve the harshest punishment from you? Your own kid, thats right. You still love them, still forgive them, but you still make them pay for their mistake. Christians are held to a higher standard in God's eyes because we are without excuse. We have the indwelling Holy Spirit who guides us in all truth. When we sin, it is our own willful disobedience. Hope this answers it, if not let me know.

When you become a Christian life is not suddenly a bed of roses, in fact the opposite is often true. The fact is we cannot pay the penalty for our sin in eternity. So, God, who is love, CHOSE to suffer and die for you and me. All you have to do to reap the benefit of this sacrifice is trust in Him.

If you would like to know how to become a Christian let me know! PM me if you wish. God Bless You.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Teh Wiccan]

Yes! This is something I've always noticed. YOU don't take responsibility, somebody else does. You could be the next Stalin, or the next Hitler, but as long as you were "saved", you were fine. You wouldn't have to pay for anything at all, you would have a one way ticket to paradise.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Yes! This is something I've always noticed. YOU don't take responsibility, somebody else does. You could be the next Stalin, or the next Hitler, but as long as you were "saved", you were fine. You wouldn't have to pay for anything at all, you would have a one way ticket to paradise.

Greetings! This is a common misconception I have found among other religions regarding Christianity, so you are not alone. Allow me to answer this question.

Christianity is not a license to sin. The fact is that when one truely receives Christ as Savior and Lord they receive the Holy Spirit and can no longer commit the type of sin they used to. Further, a Christian could not/would not commit the atrocities committed by the likes of Stalin or Hitler. If Wiccans live by a code, the Wiccan rede, and adhere to it physically. Imagine how much more a Christian adheres to the standards of God because of the spiritual indwelling of God!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Free_Spirit]

The Bible is proof. That is something real and tangible. How can a wiccan explain their postion?

The Bible is not proof. It is simply a book, written by man. The Bible doesn’t even prove that God exists, much less that the Bible God is the only *True* God. As I have said before, Wiccan and all pagan religions are based on the symbolism found in Creation (which incidentally is also “real and tangible.”)

Christianity does not require or respect the sacrifice of animals

The Old Testament is rife with animal sacrifices for atonement: From Leviticus: 1:1-9 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces. And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire: And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Think of your own children (if you have any, if not imagine that you do) if they make mistakes do you forgive them? Even if they dont deserve it, we still do.

See, that doesn’t make any sense to me. A moral parent would just hug their child and forgive them, but the Christian God has to kill himself in order to forgive his children? Hmmm.

Being a Christian does not give us a 'free ticket to sin'

Oh, I know plenty of Christians who think otherwise. They lie, cheat, and know that they can just ask God for forgiveness later. It truly is a “free ticket to sin” for many Christians, unfortunately.

 

[Teh Wiccan]

Im talking more about in theory, at the end of that persons life. If they were an atheist all their life killed millions upon millions of people, and they got saved right before they died, they would, according to Christianity, go to heaven... Right?

 

[Isaiah 53]

The Bible is not proof. It is simply a book, written by man. The Bible doesn’t even prove that God exists, much less that the Bible God is the only *True* God. As I have said before, Wiccan and all pagan religions are based on the symbolism found in Creation (which incidentally is also “real and tangible.”) What about the 100% accurate fulfillment of prophecy? Doesn't count?

The Old Testament is rife with animal sacrifices for atonement: From Leviticus: 1:1-9 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD. And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces. And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire: And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. Excellent example, but alas Christians fall under the new covenant that does not require the sacrifice of animals. You are quoting from the OT when the Jews were still bound by the law and required to follow these requirements. You said Christians require the sacrifice of animals, and no we do not.

See, that doesn’t make any sense to me. A moral parent would just hug their child and forgive them, but the Christian God has to kill himself in order to forgive his children? Hmmm. Thats like comparing jay-walking with murder. Yeah I can forgive my kid for a silly little thing, but you are not grasping the full consequence of sin as relating to the eternal God. God is utterly Holy and detests sin, cannot even look upon it. That sin carries a penalty, that penalty is death, eternal seperation from the living God...For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)


Oh, I know plenty of Christians who think otherwise. They lie, cheat, and know that they can just ask God for forgiveness later. It truly is a “free ticket to sin” for many Christians, unfortunately. That is unfortunate, but do not hold Christianity to the fallibility of men, but by the standard given us by our Lord Jesus Christ. There are bad or fake folks in every religion, to include Wicca I am sure. I have met plenty of Wiccans who curse or cast spells against people with the intention of causing that person harm, but I do not judge Wiccans as a whole by the actions of a few.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[Isaiah 53]

Im talking more about in theory, at the end of that persons life. If they were an atheist all their life killed millions upon millions of people, and they got saved right before they died, they would, according to Christianity, go to heaven... Right?

Absolutley Correct.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

 

[Havoc]

What about the 100% accurate fulfillment of prophecy? Doesn't count?

Might count if there was any.

 

[Isaiah 53]

Might count if there was any.

It does and there is...might be an interesting discussion on another thread.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

 

[if_i_only_had_a_brain]

God has no interest in sacrifices...if you are going to use the scriptures I think you should understand why they are written. 1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, hath the lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken to the fat of rams. 23. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou has rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

I believe that if you have an understanding of the bible and what the two testaments of the bible represent then you'll understand that we deserve to die for our sins. Understanding who God is means that we know that God is holy and we are sinful by our nature. Jesus Christ was the one who stood in the gap and brought man back to God. Also that creation symbolism, God made all of that and it's written all over the bible....You give reverence to things that don't have the ability to think or feel. That's what doesn't make sense. You want to use hypocrites to bad mouth a religion that's who purpose is to have a relationship with the creator of the universe. If you somewhere in your heart can say to yourself that there could possibly be a God out there watching the deeds and the hearts of men.....couldn't you at least say to yourself in your heart that if he did indeed exist that you would at least want to have somekind of relationship with him. If you say no, then that is totally your decision, but I personally feel that if you didn't at least sincerely search God out that you would be short changing yourself. Because if God did exist then that would mean that you could put absolutely no limits on him, and that would mean that the bible people keep bringing up would most certainly have somekind of validity to you. Like I said that choice is yours and all I can ask of you as someone who has felt God that you would give him a chance.
God bless you.

 

[Teh Wiccan]

Absolutley Correct.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

Just making sure I have this straight... They would not take responsibility other than saying sorry?