Why...

[savedbygrace05]

...do we argue with God deniers? What is the point of quoting God's word to them, or trying to bring God's perspective when we know from their stance (on many occasions) that all their going to do is deny God and His word?

 

[Oafman]

Aren't you directed to spread the gospel, to a certain extent at least?

Isn't that how all of the major religions became popular? Back in the day it was missionaries heading out to convert the savages. Maybe you should view it like that on CF

A quick tip. If you are looking to convert a non-believer, don't just quote the bible at them. If they don't believe the book is holy, they aren't likely to be convinced by whatever is written inside.

 

[lismore]

...do we argue with God deniers? What is the point of quoting God's word to them, or trying to bring God's perspective when we know from their stance (on many occasions) that all their going to do is deny God and His word?

So that when they stand before God and give account of their foolishness they will not be able to turn round and say 'no-one told me'.

We can only tell them the truth, what they do with it is all on them.

 

[Oafman]

So that when they stand before God and give account of their foolishness they will not be able to turn round and say 'no-one told me'.

But we will be able to truly state that 'no-one convinced me'.

 

[r21c]

Van Serg is much more exciting any day than that old dusty book with the most wretched characters ever known to Humankind. With which James Irwin could not stop being a fanatic about it, and dear old noah's Ark.

 

[Robban]

But we will be able to truly state that 'no-one convinced me'.

What does convincing anyone of anything have to do with the price of fish?

 

[MikeBigg]

So that when they stand before God and give account of their foolishness they will not be able to turn round and say 'no-one told me'.

We can only tell them the truth, what they do with it is all on them.

Hmm.

There must be more to it than that. What Paul wrote challenges me ... "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some."

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 - Bible Gateway

So, a question for you and SBG ... if you are in conversation with an atheist who tells you that just quoting the Bible is a waste of time, do you continue to just quote the Bible on the basis that it is truth and that's all you have to do?

Regards,

Mike

 

[Robban]

Hmm.

There must be more to it than that. What Paul wrote challenges me ... "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some."

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 - Bible Gateway

So, a question for you and SBG ... if you are in conversation with an atheist who tells you that just quoting the Bible is a waste of time, do you continue to just quote the Bible on the basis that it is truth and that's all you have to do?

Regards,

Mike

There is a big difference, Paul was coming with something completely new.

Christianity is long from new in Europe.

Anyone can go into a bookstore and buy an NT.

Besides all the churches scattered all over the place.

 

[MikeBigg]

There is a big difference, Paul was coming with something completely new.

Christianity is long from new in Europe.

Anyone can go into a bookstore and buy an NT.

Besides all the churches scattered all over the place.

Well, with respect, I don't accept that - I'm of the opinion that Paul's attitude is as valid today as it was then. Here's an example:

In my little town was a couple he kicked her out of the house. She was from an Asian country, but I forget which and I think was a "mail order bride". Whatever - the outcome of her being kicked out was homelessness, separation from her (and his) son and ultimately deportation. This woman was not a Christian. I think she was Budhist. Anyway ... our pastor heard about her situation, found accommodation for her, went to court with her to help her fight her case. And eventually won. It took months during which she learned what Christianity is about not through speaking truth, but demonstrating love and fighting for justice. That woman started going to church in a larger nearby town where accommodation was found for her and, I heard, has since given her life to God.

I don't think any amount of speaking the truth and giving her the responsibility with it would have got her saved.

There are many new expressions of church happening. One example is messy church - a way to involve families in church life. I think this is another example of being an "all things to all people". It suits families, but maybe not the local businessmen.

From what I can work out, these new expressions are not excuses for truth preaching, but ways to build relationship with the hope that some day an expression of the truth will then be acceptable and lead to a person getting saved. (Note: the relationship in and of itself is valued - I'm not talking about false or manipulating relationships).

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[Robban]

Well, with respect, I don't accept that - I'm of the opinion that Paul's attitude is as valid today as it was then. Here's an example:

In my little town was a couple he kicked her out of the house. She was from an Asian country, but I forget which and I think was a "mail order bride". Whatever - the outcome of her being kicked out was homelessness, separation from her (and his) son and ultimately deportation. This woman was not a Christian. I think she was Budhist. Anyway ... our pastor heard about her situation, found accommodation for her, went to court with her to help her fight her case. And eventually won. It took months during which she learned what Christianity is about not through speaking truth, but demonstrating love and fighting for justice. That woman started going to church in a larger nearby town where accommodation was found for her and, I heard, has since given her life to God.

I don't think any amount of speaking the truth and giving her the responsibility with it would have got her saved.

There are many new expressions of church happening. One example is messy church - a way to involve families in church life. I think this is another example of being an "all things to all people". It suits families, but maybe not the local businessmen.

From what I can work out, these new expressions are not excuses for truth preaching, but ways to build relationship with the hope that some day an expression of the truth will then be acceptable and lead to a person getting saved. (Note: the relationship in and of itself is valued - I'm not talking about false or manipulating relationships).

Kind regards,

Mike

He did not become a Budhist then?

 

[Robban]

Well, with respect, I don't accept that - I'm of the opinion that Paul's attitude is as valid today as it was then. Here's an example:

In my little town was a couple he kicked her out of the house. She was from an Asian country, but I forget which and I think was a "mail order bride". Whatever - the outcome of her being kicked out was homelessness, separation from her (and his) son and ultimately deportation. This woman was not a Christian. I think she was Budhist. Anyway ... our pastor heard about her situation, found accommodation for her, went to court with her to help her fight her case. And eventually won. It took months during which she learned what Christianity is about not through speaking truth, but demonstrating love and fighting for justice. That woman started going to church in a larger nearby town where accommodation was found for her and, I heard, has since given her life to God.

I don't think any amount of speaking the truth and giving her the responsibility with it would have got her saved.

There are many new expressions of church happening. One example is messy church - a way to involve families in church life. I think this is another example of being an "all things to all people". It suits families, but maybe not the local businessmen.

From what I can work out, these new expressions are not excuses for truth preaching, but ways to build relationship with the hope that some day an expression of the truth will then be acceptable and lead to a person getting saved. (Note: the relationship in and of itself is valued - I'm not talking about false or manipulating relationships).

Kind regards,

Mike

These are not exactly new instructions.

Isaiah 58:10,
And you draw out your soul to the hungry,
and an afflicted soul you sate,
then your light shall shine in the darkness,
and darkness shall be like noon.

Not that there be a motive, but out of compassion, or empathy,
not to "win" any one or thing.

 

[MikeBigg]

These are not exactly new instructions.

Isaiah 58:10,
And you draw out your soul to the hungry,
and an afflicted soul you sate,
then your light shall shine in the darkness,
and darkness shall be like noon.

Not that there be a motive, but out of compassion, or empathy,
not to "win" any one or thing.

Not new indeed - yet a world apart from the preach-the-truth-and-go mentality.

 

[Robban]

Not new indeed - yet a world apart from the preach-the-truth-and-go mentality.

Paul did not hang around too long either,
if no one believed him, he was outa there.

In Athens while waiting for some friends who did not show up, walking around observing, he spotted a forum, went on it, and laid out what he had to say, when he got to the core of his message, that all will be resurrected, his audience mocked and laughed at him.

Only a couple followed him.

Judging by todays standards, there is a need to go back to basics.

 

[lismore]

Hmm.

There must be more to it than that. What Paul wrote challenges me ... "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some."

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 - Bible Gateway

So, a question for you and SBG ... if you are in conversation with an atheist who tells you that just quoting the Bible is a waste of time, do you continue to just quote the Bible on the basis that it is truth and that's all you have to do?

Regards,

Mike

Jesus used the parable of the sower to illustrate the point, some seed falls on good ground, some on the wasteland.

If sharing the truth from the bible impacted no-one then none of us would be here. The truth impacts those who are of the good ground.

The naysayers are here because the truth of the bible impacts lives. If no-one was impacted by the truth then the naysayers wouldn't be here trying to discredit the truth. They come because they are threatened by the truth and try futilely to pull it down, just as the bible says, 'In the last days scoffers will come'.

 

[lismore]

Kind regards,

Mike

I agree. And we should help people in need. But this thread is about the hardline scoffers who come here rudely to mock God and Christianity, apparently not much else.

 

[savedbygrace05]

I agree. And we should help people in need. But this thread is about the hardline scoffers who come here rudely to mock God and Christianity, apparently not much else.

This

 

[King Mob]

...do we argue with God deniers? What is the point of quoting God's word to them, or trying to bring God's perspective when we know from their stance (on many occasions) that all their going to do is deny God and His word?

It's futile, look where western Christianity is at the moment, absolutely in the doldrums. You would have much more success if you were making attempts in regard to Islam, now there is an example of a really successful religion.

 

[lismore]

It took months during which she learned what Christianity is about not through speaking truth, but demonstrating love and fighting for justice. That woman started going to church in a larger nearby town where accommodation was found for her and, I heard, has since given her life to God.

There is an Achilles heel in your example which I believe is addressed in the parable of the wise and foolish builders. Build your house upon the rock and it shall stand, build your house on anything else and it shall fall.

The lady in your example, good though she has made a commitment. If a follower of another belief system comes along and does her a kind turn, does that mean the new belief system is the right way to go? If a follower of a giant sheep comes along and does her a good turn, even more in her eyes than your pastor friend, does that mean that the giant sheep is divine?

You will always find someone in another belief system who is more naturally friendly than yourself. Eventually someone with more resources than you in another belief system or none will be able to do a kinder turn. None of this negates truth.

The only thing you can build a life choice on is an encounter with God. The doorway to that may come in part through an act of kindness, but an atheist can do a kind deed too, in step with their maker. That does not mean atheism is the way to go.

 

[MikeBigg]

You know I'm not saying don't speak the truth and I'm certainly not saying don't share the gospel. What I am saying is sometimes you need to do something else so that the truth can not only be spoken, but also heard.

In the parable of the sower, have you ever considered the waste of seed? If the farmer could sow to only the good soil he'd reap 4 times the harvest. Some preparation of the hard ground may be useful. If you see what I mean.

Regarding the Asian woman - she did not just respond to kindness, but also the truth of the gospel.

As far as atheists go, sometimes their understanding is based on inaccurate information. Having a decent intelligent conversation about those things can help them to see that possibly their understanding may be wrong. Hopefully leading at some point to a situation where the gospel truth maybe received.

Regards,

Mike

 

[Gadarene]

In the parable of the sower, have you ever considered the waste of seed? If the farmer could sow to only the good soil he'd reap 4 times the harvest. Some preparation of the hard ground may be useful. If you see what I mean.

I did have this thought myself yesterday but didn't post it.

The only thing the parable of the sower demonstrates is how to be a crap farmer.

Some seed does not flourish through no fault of the soil, but rather because of the scattergun approach of the farmer, throwing seed on a path where he knows it will be eaten or killed by external agents.

(This and the wheat and weeds parable suggest that God isn't exactly much of a gardener )

You're absolutely right in that a refined approach shows that you've at least thought about the problem and are not just trying to rubberstamp converts with rote recitation of bible verses. I can't say I think there is actually a convincing case you can make for your beliefs, so I can't really help you there, but if a mindset like yours means not being subjected to Pascal's chuffing Wager for the eleventy billionth time you have my undying thanks.