Why?

[seeingeyes]

Who suggested that God doesn't "know"
EVERYthing that will happen.
I said just the opposite.
God DID know man would fall,
and in fact created man WITH
that capacity...
Reason being:

Yes, God knew how this world would turn out, and He made it anyway. He could have made it differently, but He didn't. Hence, this world, as it stands, is God's choice. This is true even if man's will is utterly free in every sense.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, God knew how this world would turn out, and He made it anyway. He could have made it differently, but He didn't. Hence, this world, as it stands, is God's choice. This is true even if man's will is utterly free in every sense.

Yes, and Christianity has mainly held in the past that God would only allow evil if there was ultimately a greater good to be derived from it.

 

[motherprayer]

The best frosting in the world, objectively speaking, is bitter sweet chocolate ganache whipped cream frosting. The recipe fell out of heaven and bonked a Frenchman on the head. I'm sure of it.

Despite my failure (apparently I can't measure ingredients properly at 2 in the morning), the fact is that one must go through the 'chocolate soup' phase in order to reach the 'most delicious thing on earth' phase.

We are still being whipped.

I resolve that I will fight the good fight of faith, finish my course, and in the end be bitter sweet chocolate ganache whipped cream frosting before God.

 

[squint]

I resolve that I will fight the good fight of faith, finish my course, and in the end be bitter sweet chocolate ganache whipped cream frosting before God.

I am waiting for my future bowl of endless spiritual cherries. The 70 virgins would probably make my wife mad though.

 

[seeingeyes]

Yes, and Christianity has mainly held in the past that God would only allow evil if there was ultimately a greater good to be derived from it.

Gotta break a few eggs. Amen.

 

[seeingeyes]

I am waiting for my future bowl of endless spiritual cherries. The 70 virgins would probably make my wife mad though.

No doubt. What would she do with 70 virgins?

 

[squint]

Yes, and Christianity has mainly held in the past that God would only allow evil if there was ultimately a greater good to be derived from it.

At a minimum, yes.

Some see the fact that God did in fact create all things and do not exclude the power of evil from the equations.

s

 

[squint]

No doubt. What would she do with 70 virgins?

That would be the first terrorist act in heaven.

 

[Stryder06]

Thank you for responding to all of my points, I have read all of yours, but I'll only quote the last part, so our posts don't get too long. Let me know if I passed on something vital.

No problem. And let me apologize if I seemed to come across rude. This is a sensitve subject for me, and it's very possible we might be thinking the same thing, but saying it differently.

Why is it even possible for a 'perfect' being to rebel? Why is it possible for a 'perfect' creation to fall? Unless 'rebelling' and 'falling' are inherent characteristics of 'perfection'.

The possibility exists because it is inherent to choice, not "perfection". Consider how scripture says that once since is done away with it will never rise again. If perfection and rebellion was two sides of the same coin, then scripture could not make such a claim.

What you are saying here is that God created man 'perfect', man rebelled before the paint was even dry, so to speak, and that the death of God's only begotten Son is sort of a stop-gap measure to keep Himself from throwing everyone He loves into Hell against His own will. And that it really isn't all that successful.

No, what I'm saying is that God created a perfect being (Lucifer) who for no good reason decided "I will be like the Most High", and lead 1/3 of the angelic hosts in rebellion against God. Said rebellion was snuffed, and Lucifer moved His operation to earth where He successfully got Adam to join His ranks. None of that was in God's plan. The death of Christ was not a "stop-gap" to keep from destroying the wicked, but was a means of Salvation for the sinner.

But what you are saying makes us more helpless than ever. If even God Almighty can't have want He wants, the rest is just fairy tales.

Well we are completely helpless

Our only hope remains in Christ. We can't hope to accomplish anything on our own. And the Almight does have what He wants. He will receive unto Himself a people who fear and love Him with all of their hearts, not because of force, but because that is what they have choosen.

 

[seeingeyes]

I resolve that I will fight the good fight of faith, finish my course, and in the end be bitter sweet chocolate ganache whipped cream frosting before God.

Alton Brown has a recipe from his episode 'Art of Darkness III' (you can watch it on youtube). It's easy enough to make (during daylight hours!). You should whip some up and see how delicious you're gonna be.

 

[sunlover1]

Yes, God knew how this world would turn out, and He made it anyway.

He could have made it differently, but He didn't.

Hence, this world, as it stands, is God's choice.

No, the world as it stands, is not HIS will being done:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.

 

[simonthezealot]

It is indeed, which is why I never understand why anyone could think that all of this is part of God's master plan. God never intended for sin to exist. He never intended for there to be death and suffering, or a rebellion in heaven that resulted in the loss of 1/3 of His personal attendants.

However, because He won't force anyone to serve Him, despite the obvious benefits, God allows His creation to choose which path they will walk.

Wait a sec Stryder...So you think Adam's fall came as a surprise to God?

 

[seeingeyes]

No problem. And let me apologize if I seemed to come across rude. This is a sensitve subject for me, and it's very possible we might be thinking the same thing, but saying it differently.

I feel very strongly about this topic, too. But when we argue it is as brother and sister ...and only until Dad calls us in for dinner.

The possibility exists because it is inherent to choice, not "perfection". Consider how scripture says that once since is done away with it will never rise again. If perfection and rebellion was two sides of the same coin, then scripture could not make such a claim.

If a 'perfect' creature must have the ability to choose, then when our choice is done away with, so is our 'perfection'. If 'when sin is done away with' means that we lose our option to sin, then we will be good-bots.
Puppets without a choice in the matter. Or dead.

Or if 'choice' in not inherent in perfection, then we go full circle to the beginning: Why has God created us as we are?

No, what I'm saying is that God created a perfect being (Lucifer) who for no good reason decided "I will be like the Most High", and lead 1/3 of the angelic hosts in rebellion against God. Said rebellion was snuffed, and Lucifer moved His operation to earth where He successfully got Adam to join His ranks. None of that was in God's plan. The death of Christ was not a "stop-gap" to keep from destroying the wicked, but was a means of Salvation for the sinner.

God saw that it would happen and created anyway. In terms of your theology, it would have been kinder for Him to simply not create.

The supreme act of love would have been to simply do nothing.

Well we are completely helpless

Our only hope remains in Christ. We can't hope to accomplish anything on our own. And the Almight does have what He wants. He will receive unto Himself a people who fear and love Him with all of their hearts, not because of force, but because that is what they have choosen.

If what you said here is what God wants, then this world is the 'perfect' catalyst for that, isn't it? Hence, this is God's plan.

 

[seeingeyes]

No, the world as it stands, is not HIS will being done:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.

If this verse describes what God wants, but our theology says that He doesn't get what he wants in the end, something's gotta give.

Either this verse is mistaken, or our God is not powerful enough to enact His will in the face of opposition, or our theology is wrong.

These things cannot all be true at the same time.

 

[simonthezealot]

And yes, He did know what would happen but where does it
say that He has a hand in "everything"?
Do you believe that God has a hand in blowing folks up with bombs
for instance?
Torturing little infants?
Please advise

or Crucifying the Savior?

oh yeah...Guess it does talk about that...hmmm

4:27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

2:23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

53:10 Yet the LORD was pleased to crush Him severely. When You make Him a restitution offering, He will see His seed, He will prolong His days, and by His hand, the LORD's pleasure will be accomplished.

 

[motherprayer]

If this verse describes what God wants, but our theology says that He doesn't get what he wants in the end, something's gotta give.

Either this verse is mistaken, or our God is not powerful enough to enact His will in the face of opposition, or our theology is wrong.

These things cannot all be true at the same time.

I think the verse is true, but doesnt offer that all WILL come to repentance. It says He isnt willING, that it isn't IN His will, which is why He gives us time, allows for our mistakes, but that if He WERE to force His will upon us, He would force all to come to repentance?

Maybe...

 

[Stryder06]

Wait a sec Stryder...So you think Adam's fall came as a surprise to God?

No. I said it wasn't part of the plan. In other words, God did not have a master design that included the fall. What He had was a master design that made provision for the fall, should it occur. Sadly it did, and Plan "Save Humanity through the blood of the Son" went immediately into effect.

 

[squint]

In other words, God did not have a master design that included the fall.

The good ol' PLAN B Gospel.

Gotta love a God with a back up plan huh?

LOL

 

[simonthezealot]

The good ol' PLAN B Gospel.

Gotta love a God with a back up plan huh?

LOL

yep plan b
SMH

 

[Stryder06]

I feel very strongly about this topic, too. But when we argue it is as brother and sister ...and only until Dad calls us in for dinner.

I'll look for you at the table

If a 'perfect' creature must have the ability to choose, then when our choice is done away with, so is our 'perfection'. If 'when sin is done away with' means that we lose our option to sin, then we will be good-bots.
Puppets without a choice in the matter. Or dead.

Or if 'choice' in not inherent in perfection, then we go full circle to the beginning: Why has God created us as we are?

Our choice to sin will not go away. We will simply not have that desire. Sin will never rise again because the full effect of sin will be completely understood, and no one will make the mistake of rebellion against God ever again.

God saw that it would happen and created anyway. In terms of your theology, it would have been kinder for Him to simply not create.

The supreme act of love would have been to simply do nothing.

This here is a question I'm waiting till heaven to get answered, if I bother to ask it at all. It isn't so much about "kinder" as it is "logical", and that again is a decision that I make from this side of the veil, applying my own human understanding.

If what you said here is what God wants, then this world is the 'perfect' catalyst for that, isn't it? Hence, this is God's plan.

It is because of where we are now. It wasn't supposed to be this way, but because man fell, God has quarantined sin to this planet, and is dealing with it in the way that only He could that will keep it from festering again.

Again, I'm making a distinction between a "plan" and a "provision". Sin wasn't in the plan. Provision for sin was.