Why Young Earthers should be more honest

[lucaspa]

Today at 02:39 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #92

And if the age of the earth was provable beyond a shadow of a doubt. The yec would not have a leg to stand on right? Says something about what you believe.

 

And calling yec believers liars causes the same problems your complaining about. I have the right to believe what I believe. Are you saying that I don't?

I do not take kindly to being called a liar who spreads dishonesty because I believe something different from you.

It is provable, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the earth is not less than 20,000 years old. So yes, YEC as an idea has no leg to stand on.

You have the "right" to reject reality.  What you don't have as a "right" is to have your falsified theory proclaimed as valid fact.  Your beliefs are your own, but you can't proclaim your beliefs as facts when they are not.

The "dishonesty" issue is more complicated.  The professional creationists who misquote scientists or publish data or conclusions they have been shown are false are definitely committing false witness.  Now, do you as a layman repeating these falsehoods also commit false witness?  Is repeating a false allegation without checking it out the same as the originator of the false witness?

I would say that it is dishonest to claim your belief is not a belief.  I clash continually with atheists on this issue when I challenge the statement "atheism is not a belief" and I have said such a statement is intellectual dishonesty.  I have never seen you complain that I was doing that.

Since the claim is about an idea and not about a person, I think you are going to have to deal with it.  You are going to have to show that the particular belief is not intellectually dishonest.  This is not about your behavior or personality, but about the idea.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 03:01 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #119

How do you know what is and what is not Biblical? Are you a student of the Bible? I though you were a Biologist. Now your saying that your a theologian and a review board of one that is going to judge our theology?

Not our theology, or any recognizable legitimate theology, just your theology. A theology you seem to be making up as you go along, judging by your posts here.

Also, why would you want to judge our theology? What do you care what we believe? If I were going to try to convert a muslim, I would not tear his theology and the koran apart. I would simply show him I had something better to offer him.

We don't care what you believe. We care when you try to tell the rest of us what to believe. You've already admitted numerous times your total and willful ignorance of basic science and Darwinian theory, yet that doesn't stop you from labeling it as "junk," "fiction," and "nonsense," among other things, and would gladly toss out of a classroom if you could.

So what gives you the audacity to claim that something you know nothing about is somehow contrary to God's will? And what gives you the right to pass judgments on those who have committed the mortal sin of disagreeing with you? 

I know you, John. When you run out of ideas, you'll fall back on the Holy Spirit. Well, I have a challenge for you:

Prove to me that the Holy Spirit did not speak to Charles Darwin, or that God did not use Darwin as an instrument to help us understand His creation better.

If you have something better, show me what you got. But even with a child you know you can not take something away from then, unless you distract them with something better.

I have something better. Better than the ignorance, bigotry, and self-serving arrogance that comes from the brand of theology that would march us proudly back to the Dark Ages.

It's called human reason. Without the use of it, we are sheep; sheep blindly following the shepherd to be sheared and slaughtered.

 

[lucaspa]

Yesterday at 04:43 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #74

But they put very little effort into learning anything about the Creator.

Because this is not the Theology Forum.  Science and evolution do not deny the existence of a Creator. They are concerned with how that Creator created.

If we had a neat and tidy creation theory with all of our little wooden indians lined up. Would that really help you to come to know the Creator better?

LOL! No. IDers claim that they have a "neat and tidy creation theory"  but they emphatically claim it doesn't tell you a thing about the personality of the Intelligent Designer. They explicitly state that you have to go to theology for that.

John, you are trying to use creationism to "prove" the existence of a Creator.  This is a futile attempt.  "To say it for all my colleageues and for the umpteenth millionth time (from college bull sessions to learned treatises): science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God's possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can't comment on it as scientists." 

Or, put another way, you have linked the testable statements of how a Creator created to the untestable statement of whether that Creator exists.  It's a does-not-follow error of logic. No wonder you get upset when we falsify creationism.  You think we are falsifying God.  Of course, it would help if you would actually listen to what we are saying and not project your own faulty logic.

I would point out that a few evolutionists who were/are Christians have put quite a bit of effort trying to figure out what evolution tells them about the Creator. You should look up the theological work of Teilhard de Chardin and Theodosius Dobzhansky.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 02:41 PM lucaspa said this in Post #114

John, we did the first site before. It is simply a monastery built on the site people believe the burning bush happened. But there is no burning bush there now, is there?

Yes, it is a part of the same burning bush. They are tubular. The tubular roots just keep growing and producing a plant. Like the Ivy at the Ivy League Universities. No one has ever found a way to get rid of it. All they can do, once it gets established is to cut it back every year. I hear it is the same with established bamboo, there is no way to get rid of it. Even a tiny 1/2 inch peice of the root will grow into a full plant.

Anyone found remains of Egyptian armor and chariots under the Red Sea?

There was someone who claimed to have found them. Ron Wyatt.

Anyone you know parted the Red Sea lately?

I have seen God perform a lot of miracles, but I have not actually seen that one. Of course there is a symbolic meaning. God only has to perform the actual miracles once, to establish it.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 03:01 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #119

How do you know what is and what is not Biblical? Are you a student of the Bible? I though you were a Biologist. Now your saying that your a theologian and a review board of one that is going to judge our theology?

Whose "our"? Is that the royal or schizophrenid "we" again?

John, Sola Scriptura says that anyone can read the Bible and look at the theology in it.  I asked you specific questions about where in Genesis 2 the Bible stated what you said it did.  I don't find those claims anywhere in Genesis 2.  Now, the Bible is the same for everyone, so what I read there has to be what you read there.

Also, why would you want to judge our theology? What do you care what we believe?

I care because you portray your theology as the theology of all of Christianity.  It's nice to see that you are admitting it's not.

If I were going to try to convert a muslim, I would not tear his theology and the koran apart. I would simply show him I had something better to offer him.

Who's trying to convert you?  Not me. What would I be trying to convert you to?  Stay an atheist. 

I am showing Biblical literalists I have something better to offer: theistic evolution. Retains their belief in God but no longer pits God against God.

No one is trying to take anything away from you, unless it is your literalism. What you get in return is a cessation of conflict between science and Christianity and the ability to read the theological messages in Genesis.

Sit back, pop open a coke, make some popcorn, and watch science tell you how God created. 

Now, one more time, please show me theologically why this doesn't work:

"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works."  James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, The Religious Aspects of Evolution, 2d ed. 1890, pg 68.

BTW, don't Christians look upon gravity as the method by which God holds the planets in orbit?

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:47 PM lucaspa said this in Post #125 Whose "our"?

By "our" I mean the Bible collage I attend.

 

 

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 03:42 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #124

Yes, it is a part of the same burning bush. They are tubular. The tubular roots just keep growing and producing a plant.

There is no way to know that this plant was the burning bush. It is not burning now and there is no evidence it ever did have a flame that did not consume. The description in Exodus is not precise enough to locate the site.

The flame that Moses says he saw left no evidence we can study today.

There was someone who claimed to have found them. Ron Wyatt.

The problem is that the artifacts Wyatt found are not at the site he says was the crossing. 

I have seen God perform a lot of miracles, but I have not actually seen that one. Of course there is a symbolic meaning. God only has to perform the actual miracles once, to establish it.

Trying to change the argument.  My claim was that science could not comment because there was no evidence that persisted to today and that the miracle could not be performed by everyone or even twice. Thank you for backing my claim. Miracles, by their very nature, are outside the domain of science.

I see your minister is being sued for fraud by someone who claims that his miracle healing of her was not real.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 03:53 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #126

By "our" I mean the Bible collage I attend.  

I assume you meant "college". So, are you saying that they support your theory that Day 6 people are not Adam and Eve?  If so, could you get that faculty member to join the forum and write a testimonial for you? I'm really interested to find out how widespread this idea is.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 03:53 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #126

By "our" I mean the Bible collage I attend. 

That whole long post and this is your only comment on it? No passages from Genesis 2 about how perfect and divine Adam was?  No comment on sitting back and letting science tell you how God created?

Particularly, no theological comment on:
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works."  James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, The Religious Aspects of Evolution, 2d ed. 1890, pg 68.

I really want to know why you reject the theology of this prominent American theologian.

 

[Smilin]

Thank you for an amusing diversion John....

 

[lucaspa]

John, you left out a picture from the Wyatt site.
[http://www.wyattmuseum.com/images/REDSEA11.jpg]

This shows the hoax. Notice that the wheel isn't buried and see how shiny the rims are? No salt water oxidation at all.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 03:31 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #122

We don't care what you believe. We care when you try to tell the rest of us what to believe. 

Actually, no, I am not trying to win converts. This would not be the place to come to do that. All I am trying to do is to help people understand something they do not understand. But you have a cowboy mentality that your going to shoot down whatever pops up. Without even using your brain to give it any consideration. What makes it worse is the nasty way you do it. You belittle and insult people every chance you get, just to try and build yourself up with a false sense of pride. You must be a student of the Jerry Springer show.

One of these days, if you do not repent and change your ways, you will take one step to many & God will turn you over to a reprobate mind and that will be it, He will contend with you no more. He is very patient with people, but He will only go so far with them. Sodom reached that point, and He destroyed them off the face of the earth and they are no more.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 04:02 PM lucaspa said this in Post #129
That whole long post and this is your only comment on it?

I had to pick up my wife from work. Also I am tired of being insulted. You people make me very sad, because your just not willing to put out any effort at all. I can not help people that are not willing to do anything to help themselves.

 

[Eddie]

Hang on.  Please be clear about this.  Are you saying that you can speak for God and his intentions? 

 

 

 

Today at 05:58 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #132


One of these days, if you do not repent and change your ways, you will take one step to many & God will turn you over to a reprobate mind and that will be it, He will contend with you no more. He is very patient with people, but He will only go so far with them. Sodom reached that point, and He destroyed them off the face of the earth and they are no more.

 

[Micaiah]

Today at 07:31 AM Eddie said this in Post #134 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682402#post682402)

Hang on.  Please be clear about this.  Are you saying that you can speak for God and his intentions? 

 

 

 

Can I clarify another aspect of this debate which relates to the basic assertion of the thread title.

I accept the title YEC only insofar as it accords with Scripture because my true title is a Christain who believes "Scripture is Truth" ie a SIT. Genesis is Scripture and provides a historical record of real people and real events. Therefore when Scripture asserts that Creation took place in 6 days, and we are given genealogies in Scripture that enable us to estimate the earth is some 6000 years old, not millions of years old, then that is what I believe to be truth.

I don't take the criticism of dishonesty personally. Your argument is with the word of God, not those who trust the word of God.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 05:58 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #132

Actually, no, I am not trying to win converts. This would not be the place to come to do that. All I am trying to do is to help people understand something they do not understand.

If that something is the Bible, then I am very puzzled. You combat alleged ignorance of theology with your self-confessed ignorance of science?

But you have a cowboy mentality that your going to shoot down whatever pops up. Without even using your brain to give it any consideration.

Awww.... you wound me. I've have given serious consideration to every point of view I believe merits it. I cannot help it if not every idea meets that criteria.

What makes it worse is the nasty way you do it. You belittle and insult people every chance you get, just to try and build yourself up with a false sense of pride. You must be a student of the Jerry Springer show.

Nothing false about my pride. When I see ignorance hiding behind a mask of false wisdom, especially a mask of false spiritual wisdom, I take great pride and pleasure in exposing it for what it is. The higher the ivory tower, the more it deserves to be torn down.

I'm not a special fan of Jerry Springer, and I'm sure you meant this comment as an insult, but even you must admit that he performs a valuable service by showing us how much worse off our lives can be. I never saw anyone mocked on his show who didn't thouroughly deserve it.

One of these days, if you do not repent and change your ways, you will take one step to many & God will turn you over to a reprobate mind and that will be it, He will contend with you no more. He is very patient with people, but He will only go so far with them. Sodom reached that point, and He destroyed them off the face of the earth and they are no more.

O my brother, you've got it all backwards. You're the one heading in the wrong direction. God sent me to you via this board to plant the questions in your mind to gently nudge you back on to the true path.

But of course you don't believe a word of that. You're too proud.

 

[TheBear]

Let's keep things cool, folks.


Please refrain from personal attacks.

[noflame][/noflame]

 

[Cantuar]

Also, why would you want to judge our theology? What do you care what we believe?

It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is that creationists have tied their belief to a grotesque distortion of science and are trying to get the latter taught in science classes as if it were genuine science.

If I were going to try to convert a muslim, I would not tear his theology and the koran apart. I would simply show him I had something better to offer him.

Nobody is trying to convert you. You can believe what you like as far as the evolution supporters here are concerned. Our problem is with the way creationists are trying to insert this belief into school science class - and the way they distort the real science and try and present that caricature to the public along with subtle and not-so-subtle messages that the people who are promoting genuine science are not to be trusted because they're in a conspiracy to replace fine upstanding Christianity with that nasty atheistic materialistic evolutionism that's the sole cause of all society's ills. And that caricature of the scientific community for religious and political reasons is a lot of what this thread title is referring to.

 

[ikester7579]

Yesterday at 06:03 AM Praxiteles said this in Post #106

Creation science was given a fair shake, though, although it was just called "science" then.  All of the people that found the evidence that originally suggested that creation did not take place as recounted in the Bible were actually looking for evidence to support it.

It was the search for the great flood that found that, instead of their being evidence for a flood, there was indeed evidence to suggest that the earth was very old, and that there was no global catastrophe in the geological record.

Those people who nowadays say that there is evidence are only using evidence that could support a flood, but are blatantly ignoring that evidence which shows such a flood hasn't happened.

Creation science was tested, and rejected.  By Christians.  

 



I wouldn't mind one of those either.  How cool would *that* be?  But you're right.  Once you get outside the warranty period you're in strife. 

 

Funny thing about that. Creation is now accepted in schools in Georgia, Kansas and Minnasota. In a court of law, or in front of a school board, creation could not be disproven as scientific. In fact the creationists presented a bunch of evidence that shot holes in evolution. The evolutionists could not refute this evidence. From what I understand from witnesses at these hearings, the evolutionists were very unprepared. Kept bringing up the same arguement which did not work in the end. When the link for this story becomes available later this month I will post it. I got this story from Citizen Magazine. The story though is not posted on the web until the following month. You can check here: http://www.family.org/cforum/citizenmag/ from time to time to see if story has been posted yet.

 

[chickenman]

kansas and georgia are the laughing stock of the nation for that decision

creation science doesn't count where it matters ikester - at the university/professional research level. Its not even given consideration, just like heliocentrism isn't given any consideration anymore