Why Young Earthers should be more honest

gentu

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I am in no way anti-creationist, anti-religion, anti-Christian, or anti-bible. I can accept and understand how many people use Christianity, which is based on the Bible, as a source of their religious inspiration.

That being said, those who home in on ambiguous Old Testament passages and construe them as proof that the universe is a handful of years old are not being honest. They are not being honest intellectually, socially, scientifically, or spiritually. They are likely not dishonest intentionally or with malice, but with confusion and misunderstanding. However, they are still doing a disservice to many.

Intellectually, they are being dishonest because they refuse to learn lessons from common knowledge of Galileo's experience with the Roman Catholic Church. The church of that time put forth a false argument that had nothing to do with spirituality. Did the fact that the earth revolved around the sun cause spirituality to topple and disappear? No. It had no affect on spirituality whatsoever, it is simply the nature of Earth.

Socially, they are dishonest because they spread confusion and cause havoc with school boards. Disagreement with common accepted principles may be a reason to homeschool your child, but it is dishonest to deny a complete education to other children.

Scientifically, they are being dishonest because they misconstrue basic facts due to a restricted paradigm of thinking. Science - honest science - involves the testing of ideas on their own merit, and nothing else. It is scientifically dishonest to construe facts to fit an outside paradigm. Obviously there are gray areas where things may be misconstrued at a certain scale, but the systematic denial of observations amounts to nothing more than scientific dishonesty.

Consider two philosophers living on a coastline who are debating the shape of the earth. One has a hypothesis that the earth is flat, the other believes it is mostly spherical. The latter challenges his companion to observe sailing vessels on a bright, clear day as they travel away from the coast and into deeper waters. "Look carefully at how the bottom of the boats seems to disappear below the horizon as the boat sails very far away," he says. "The sail is the last part that can be seen before the boat is too far away to make out. This is because the curvature of the spherical earth begins to hide the boat from the bottom up as it moves far enough away." This explanation makes sense, and can be verified by anyone on a clear day. The best conclusion would be that, indeed, the earth has curvature and is likely some spherical shape, as water surfaces can only be curved on a curved earth.

However, the companion to this philosopher, in a systematic denial of concepts as thorough as any who purport a young earth, scoffs at this obvious explanation. "That doesn't prove anything about the curvature of the earth. It only looks like the earth is curved, but really, the diffraction of light off of the water's surface makes the boat look like it's disappearing! This effect makes the boat look shorter when it is farther away, so that refutes your claim!" While this could be a legitimate claim, it is wrong. If the person did experiments on this effect, he would discover that it doesn't exist, and therefore it was dishonestly conjured up. What many young-earth proponents don't realize is that they are doing the exact same thing in their contradictions of geology, astronomy, and other sciences.

Spiritually, they are dishonest because the point of spirituality is to become at peace with a purpose in life. Honest spirituality involves a good amount of love for others and self and awe in the complexity of every piece of the universe. Dishonest spirituality is bickering over ancient documents which have no spiritual weight. Does the age of your world really affect your ability to love a God and those you share your world with?

Religion has given us many beautiful inspirations. What does confusion and dishonesty inspire?
 

JohnR7

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Today at 09:41 PM gentu said this in Post #1 
They are not being honest intellectually, socially, scientifically, or spiritually. They are likely not dishonest intentionally or with malice, but with confusion and misunderstanding. However, they are still doing a disservice to many. 

The general rule is, that we are not actually able to judge others, we can only judge ourselves. There does seem to be a tendancy to project this out on others though. So in your attempt to tell us all about creationists, you most likely are only telling us about you.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Today at 11:47 PM Micaiah said this in Post #3 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=674328#post674328)

Well stated JohnR7. The irony is too obvious to miss. So we're dishonest because we look at the wonderful complexity and harmony that exists in Creation and conclude there is a Creator.

The worst kind of deception is self deception.

You obviously missed the point. Whether or not there is a Creator is moot. The issue is creationists taking their particular religious doctrine and twisting factual evidence to fit that doctrine. To do so (and especially to claim it as "science") is dishonest and the very antithesis of science.
 
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every reason you stated for us not being honest can be turned around and used on evolusionists or anyone else concerning this matter....

...also you say we are spiritually dishonest because we research and try to find the truth of the earth's existance what about you? And anyone else who even reads any evidence pointing either way?

I like your attempt...but it might be stronger if you didn't use a personal bias..
 
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I believe perhaps the creation scientists ignore evidence...but the everyday creationists like myself are always willing to chat about evidence<IMG onmouseover="this.style.cursor='hand';" style="CURSOR: hand" onclick="smilie(';)');" alt=wink src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border=0>

I can't ignore what i don't know and i don't know everything.

Got anything to talk to me about just let me know.
 
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Arikay

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:)

just pick a thread and jump in. :)

Today at 09:45 PM yec_12 said this in Post #8 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=674425#post674425)

I believe perhaps the creation scientists ignore evidence...but the everyday creationists like myself are always willing to chat about evidence<IMG onmouseover="this.style.cursor='hand';" style="CURSOR: hand" onclick="smilie(';)');" alt=wink src="http://www.christianforums.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border=0>

I can't ignore what i don't know and i don't know everything.

Got anything to talk to me about just let me know.
 
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JohnR7

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Today at 12:03 AM Pete Harcoff said this in Post #5 The issue is creationists taking their particular religious doctrine and twisting factual evidence to fit that doctrine. To do so (and especially to claim it as "science") is dishonest and the very antithesis of science.

The issue is actually is scientists taking their particular doctrine and twisting factual evidence to fit that doctrine.

We know some things to be rock solid facts. We know that what Moses wrote is reliable and dependable. We know that Adam and Eve were formed by God 6000 years ago. That is a fact.

Just like there are other things we are not told, so we speculate on them, like science has their theorys. Like where did Seth and Cain get their wives? Was there a prehistoric man before Adam? Did they marry a sister? Did God make a wife for them from their rib, like He did with Adam? We do not know for sure, but we look at the various possibilities. We know today that God will provide a wife for a man. But some men do not want to wait on God to provide for them, so they go out and find a wife on their own. So who knows, maybe they had that option back then. They could wait on God to provide a wife, like Adam did. Or they could go out and find one on their own. Like perhaps Cain did. Of course Cains decendants died off. They lived about 5 or 6 generations, then we never hear from them again.&nbsp;Unless they show up in the DNA record somehow, someway. There is no record of them in the&nbsp;Bible. So we know that God was not a part of it. &nbsp;
 
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Cantuar

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The issue is actually is scientists taking their particular doctrine and twisting factual evidence to fit that doctrine.

We know some things to be rock solid facts. We know that what Moses wrote is reliable and dependable. We know that Adam and Eve were formed by God 6000 years ago. That is a fact.

That is not a fact as far as science is concerned. The scientific method doesn't rely on arguments from authority and from the holy books of various religions as its basis, it relies on observations and data obtained via the senses. THis means that the notion of Adam and Eve being formed by God 6000 years ago doesn't count as a scientific fact, it counts as a religious one. It's creationists who are busy trying to manipulate the scientific method to accommodate these scriptural assertions. Scientists on the whole are content to leave the religious facts to religion and the scientific facts to science. It's creationists who are claiming that scientists are out to deny God, when the scientific method actually has no bearing on scripture one way or the other. To say that scientists are twisting data is to accuse scientists of fraud - with taxpayer dollars, no less. It's also ignoring the fact that many scientists are Christians and have no interest in backing an incorrect theory whose only utility is to deny God. It is, as Gentu pointed out, dishonest.
 
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Arikay

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People need to look up the difference between fact, scientific evidence and belief.

You belief that the bible is true, but it doesnt make it a fact.


This of course goes back to my thread of, "is evolution judged unfairly"

Evolution is judged on a much higher criteria than creationism. In evolution, a belief doesnt cut it, but in creationism it does.

Until the two are judged on an equal ground, no one will win.

Ive asked creationists for evidence so we could look at creationism on the same ground as evolution, but none was given. Evolution can be more highly scrutinized. So evolution may not be the Exact answer, but it is better than creationism, because it can stand up to more scientific scrutiny than creationism.
 
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Jase

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Today at 01:29 AM Arikay said this in Post #12

People need to look up the difference between fact, scientific evidence and belief.

You belief that the bible is true, but it doesnt make it a fact.


This of course goes back to my thread of, "is evolution judged unfairly"

Evolution is judged on a much higher criteria than creationism. In evolution, a belief doesnt cut it, but in creationism it does.

Until the two are judged on an equal ground, no one will win.

Ive asked creationists for evidence so we could look at creationism on the same ground as evolution, but none was given. Evolution can be more highly scrutinized. So evolution may not be the Exact answer, but it is better than creationism, because it can stand up to more scientific scrutiny than creationism.

Do you believe humans evolved&nbsp;by natural processes on their own?&nbsp;

According to probability studies the odds of that are 1 out of 10 to the 2 billionth power.&nbsp;In other words, there isn't enough matter in the universe or time for all the possible combinations to be tried in order for the the formula for life to be&nbsp;made by natural means.
 
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Cantuar

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According to theronnows.com, the odds of all the functional proteins required for life coming together by chance are around 1 out of 10 to the 40,000th.

The notion that all the processes involved in evolution occur by chance is a creationist invention. Biochemistry has never been a chance process.
 
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Micaiah

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Today at 03:49 PM Jase said this in Post #15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=674523#post674523)

Do a search on probability of evolution -&nbsp; you'll get studies.&nbsp;

According to theronnows.com, the odds of all the functional proteins required for life coming together by chance are around 1 out of 10 to the 40,000th.&nbsp;


If I played a game of cards and someone came up with a hand with those sort of odds, my conclusion would be that someone had tampered with the cards. These examples demonstrate that evolution is not simply highly improbable, it is impossible.
 
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