Why would the Devil punish sinners?

[eleos1954]

What does it say about God that he allows this devil to do that?

The Bible teaches that satan is the author of sin. Sin is the reason that we have afflictions, violence, every evil thing, including death. All of our problems and our suffering, including death itself, are a result of man’s rebellion against God. But God has provided a rescue in the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ. That’s why Christ died on the cross. That’s why He rose from the dead.

There are yet people to be saved (present & future) to live for eternity. The Lord wants as many people as possible (by their choice) to live with Him in eternity. He will not return and end everything and create a new sinless world, until all have made their choices.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I have to say, that if you directed a post like that to me it would be one of those times I mentioned to you in an earlier post when I get a bit tetchy.
Christians say that a lot to unbelievers and it is extremely offensive. The fact that you ask someone not to take offence at something that is clearly offensive only makes matters worse.
Speaking for myself, my life is rich and full, and I am not necessarily talking about things material.
As for discovering how empty and meaningless one's life was after you take on board all the religious dogma you spoke of, I just wonder if you have read any of the threads started by Christians here on CF, pleading for help, asking people to pray for them as they are addicted to drugs, alcohol, inappropriate contentography and acts of infidelity? Hardly a life that is rich and full, only full of problems.
Christians and non-believers alike fall foul of those kinds of problems, while most Christians and non-believers don't, so as far as I'm concerned, there is no divine being giving you a rich a fulfilling life. Life is what you make it yourself.

I am not ashamed to say that you are missing eternal joy. A joy that can only come through the saving grace of God. A joy that you can have even while you are suffering.

 

[Par5]

I am not ashamed to say that you are missing eternal joy. A joy that can only come through the saving grace of God. A joy that you can have even while you are suffering.

You may feel no shame in telling someone that they are missing eternal joy. I don't have a problem with that, but you have no right to tell anyone that their life is empty and meaningless. Everyone's life has worth.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Here's a question.....

If the devil is banished to hell.... what's he doing on earth?

Satan was banished to hell? That's news to me. Which teacher of Christian Eschatology have you been reading or listening to?

Is hell a place that you can just leave whenever you feel like it?

...I've never been there, so I couldn't say.

Couldn't the omnipotent creator of everything create a "prison" from which there is no escape?

I suppose He could, but I'm not sure why He'd really need to.

What does it say about this creator if he allows the very embodiment of evil to mess around with his creation, with his children?

It probably says that the Creator isn't too overly concerned about the final outcome of having a worm in His apple.

This is kind of the equivalent of convicting a serial pedophile to a "prison" that isn't locked up, with no guards and which is build right next to a school.

Wonderful analogy, but I think it's probably an understatement...

 

[dcalling]

You may feel no shame in telling someone that they are missing eternal joy. I don't have a problem with that, but you have no right to tell anyone that their life is empty and meaningless. Everyone's life has worth.

Everyone's life has worth, totally correct. And I would say it is actually dangers if you feel your life is full and meaningful, because that usually means you choose life of this world over God. It is like choosing joy of drugs over real world.

 

[Par5]

Everyone's life has worth, totally correct. And I would say it is actually dangers if you feel your life is full and meaningful, because that usually means you choose life of this world over God. It is like choosing joy of drugs over real world.

So my life is dangerous if I feel it is full and meaningful? Where do you people get these ridiculous ideas? And btw, I don't equate joy with drug use. If that is your idea of joy you are the one who has the problem, not me. As I said, my life is full and meaningful and for you to suggest otherwise is just typical Christian arrogance!

 

[RaymondG]

Everyone's life has worth, totally correct. And I would say it is actually dangers if you feel your life is full and meaningful, because that usually means you choose life of this world over God. It is like choosing joy of drugs over real world.

So one who has chosen God cannot feel that their life is full and meaningful?

 

[dcalling]

So my life is dangerous if I feel it is full and meaningful? Where do you people get these ridiculous ideas? And btw, I don't equate joy with drug use. If that is your idea of joy you are the one who has the problem, not me. As I said, my life is full and meaningful and for you to suggest otherwise is just typical Christian arrogance!

Joy is not bad at all, in fact one of the fruits of holy spirit is joy. What's dangers is if you make the worldly joy as your goal, i.e. some people want to get happy by having more money, ore more power.

If you don't have a higher order in mind, and are merged in the joy of this world, it is not a good position. And this idea is not Christian only, as in Buddhism (where I really liked before became a Christian), this world is all fake, and only the wise can see through it and archive enlightenment (in Christianity none is wise enough and we can only saved by grace of God).

 

[dcalling]

So one who has chosen God cannot feel that their life is full and meaningful?

you totally missed my meaning. My central message is what most people see as full and meaningfull is only temporary and short sighted. You only get eternal fullfillment from God.

 

[Uber Genius]

If God sends sinners to Hell to be punished, what incentive does the Devil have to punish them? I would think the Devil would treat sinners very well...

We see the fall of Satan associated with his pride in the OT. In the middle ages there was a work called "The Book of Adam," that suggests that Satan or the Devil fell due to his refusal to humble himself and worship Adam, Milton also has fictitious accounts of Hell and Satan that don't relate to the scriptural data whatsoever, but have made there way to many a church pulpit. Satan hates all creatures according to scriptural data. Humans are hated as much as angels, other demons, and God by Satan. It seems to be a function of his nature, namely all-hating rather than God who is all-loving. But the data is scarce and must be treated as having little supporting explanation for his feeling towards any being in the underworld.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If God sends sinners to Hell to be punished, what incentive does the Devil have to punish them? I would think the Devil would treat sinners very well...

What you've described isn't really part of Christian theology, it's really more popular imagination with a little bit of influence from Dante's Divine Comedy thrown in.

For one, Christian teaching doesn't say the devil torments sinners. And another, the idea that God sends sinners to hell is an idea held by some Christians, but not most. The understanding of the overwhelming majority of Christians, across denominational and historic lines (i.e. Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) is that hell is, fundamentally, a personal choice. To phrase it another way, there's nobody in hell that does not want to be there; and there is nobody in hell that God wants to be there.

That idea is likely going to sound very bizarre if one maintains the notion that hell is an actual place, a kind of big fiery chasm with devils poking and prodding the wicked with pitch forks for all eternity. But such an idea is generally considered rather cartoonish by most Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ok, so the Devil doesn't reign in Hell then. Makes me wonder why Christians fear the Devil then...

We shouldn't be. Christian teaching maintains that the devil is defeated, Christ defeated him. The devil is a fallen foe.

The Lutheran hymn, A Mighty Fortress, captures this.

"A mighty fortress is our God,
A bulwark never failing:
Our helper He, amid the flood
Of mortal ills prevailing.
For still our ancient foe
Doth seek to work his woe;
His craft and power are great,
And armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.

Did we in our own strength confide,
Our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side,
The Man of God's own choosing.
Dost ask who that may be?
Christ Jesus, it is he;
Lord Sabaoth is his name,
From age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.

And though this world, with devils filled,
Should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed
His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim,
We tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure,
For lo! his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

That word above all earthly powers,
No thanks to them, abideth;
The Spirit and the gifts are ours
Through Him who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go,
This mortal life also;
The body they may kill:
God’s truth abideth still,
His Kingdom is forever."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ximmix]

What you've described isn't really part of Christian theology, it's really more popular imagination with a little bit of influence from Dante's Divine Comedy thrown in.

For one, Christian teaching doesn't say the devil torments sinners. And another, the idea that God sends sinners to hell is an idea held by some Christians, but not most. The understanding of the overwhelming majority of Christians, across denominational and historic lines (i.e. Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) is that hell is, fundamentally, a personal choice. To phrase it another way, there's nobody in hell that does not want to be there; and there is nobody in hell that God wants to be there.

That idea is likely going to sound very bizarre if one maintains the notion that hell is an actual place, a kind of big fiery chasm with devils poking and prodding the wicked with pitch forks for all eternity. But such an idea is generally considered rather cartoonish by most Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for your response, I guess the Christians here that are threatening atheists with Hell have been reading Dante instead of the Bible

 

[Theo Barnsley]

If God sends sinners to Hell to be punished, what incentive does the Devil have to punish them? I would think the Devil would treat sinners very well...

How do we know that Satan is the evil God, & Yaweh the good god? We only have the say so of one book. Satan has never given his side of the story. The authors of the bible may have been decieved.

What evil has Satan committed in the old testament? All we have is that Satan tested & afflicted Job, however this is at the behest of Yaweh, who gave Satan permission to do this.

On the other hand, this is what Yaweh has (apparently) done:
1. Cursed all of mankind, because Adam & Eve gained knowledge by eating from the tree that god deliberately planted in the garden, & then allowed a talking snake into the garden to decieve them. Yaweh deliberately setup his creation to fail, apparently so he would have an excuse to curse & later drown everybody.
2. Committed genocide against all mankind & all the animals of the earth by drowning everybody in a flood, because god apparently had no foresight that his creation would turn bad after he cursed all of mankind.
3. Commanded Abraham to sacrifice his first born son, then at the last minute said, haha, im only joking!
4. Deliberately hardened pharoahs heart so that he wouldnt release the israelites, even though he wanted to release the israelites, to give yaweh an excuse to send more plagues on egypt.
5. Committed genocide against all the innocent firstborn of egypt.
6. Commanded the Israelites to observe many dumb laws amongst the few good laws, including keeping slaves, allowed rape etc.
7. Ordered israelites to commit genocide against tribes already living in the 'promised land', including all the innocents, & allowed the taking of young virgin girls as slaves..

In addition Yaweh comes across as a vain, conceited, jealous & psycopathic megolamaniac. Hardly the qualities you would expect in a 'good god'.

I could go on with more, but you get the general idea. Maybe Satan is good, & Yaweh is evil. Maybe Satan fought with Yaweh, because he was sick of Yaweh's incompetence at not getting creation right, & then constantly blaming & cursing & punishing mankind. maybe Yaweh isnt even the creator, but is just claiming to be the creator.

There is no actual evidence that Yaweh is good, & Satan is evil. You would expect an evil god to say that the good god is actually the evil one.

Before anybody gets the wrong idea, I am not promoting Satan worship, because I dont think that any god should be worshipped, just because of what it says in an ancient book written by a superstitious people. I am also not saying that Satan actually IS the good god, & Yaweh the evil god, however there is no reason why it could not BE that way, if they actually existed. There is no evidence that things are as it says in the bible, & absolutely no reason that we should assume that Yaweh is the 'good' god.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks for your response, I guess the Christians here that are threatening atheists with Hell have been reading Dante instead of the Bible

That's not terribly far from the truth. Not so much in that they have literally been reading Dante and not the Bible, but that the views of "Hell" being espoused are very much ones which have largely been shaped by Dante-infused cultural motifs. Views on Hell in the West have been sharply defined by ideas of rewards and punishments, the matter has often come down to being judicial: There is God the Judge and God metes out punitive justice, which includes sending sinners to Hell to suffer the torments of Hell. That idea is a very Western, very medieval one that has still lingered into the 21st century among some Christians.

Contrast this with, for example, the Eastern Christian perspective, as exemplified here in the writing of St. Isaac the Syrian.

"I also maintain that those who are punished in Hell are scourged by the scourge of love. For what is so bitter and vehement as the punishment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of Hell: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability."

Isaac's view here is typical of the Eastern Christian perspective, that "Heaven" and "Hell" (i.e. the ultimate states of the righteous and the wicked) are not two different places where people go; but rather are the same "place". Everyone enters into God's presence in the end, and all experience God's love--the difference isn't "where" we are, the difference isn't God's disposition toward us (which is pure and unconditional love), but rather our disposition toward God. Do we choose to experience God's love with joy, or experience God's love clinging to the agony and remorse over our sin, bitterness, etc? In the end, in some way, that's up to us.

Or as C.S. Lewis phrases it in the Great Divorce, in the end there are only two kinds of people, those who say to God "Thy will be done" (i.e. God desires all to share in the goodness of His life and love) and those to whom God says "Thy will be done" (i.e. those who would refuse the goodness and life of God in favor of themselves, their sin, their emptiness).

It's not about God sending sinners to Hell, God doesn't send sinners to Hell. God is the One who rescues sinners and brings them into Himself. So that, in the end, there is no one in Hell who did not actively, deliberately, and consciously want to be there. Noting that "there" is being used loosely, as I'm not talking about location, but rather something more abstract.

Lewis famously wrote that it's not so much that we go to Hell in the end, but that there is that thing in us that will become Hell if it isn't nipped in the bud.

-CryptoLutheran