Why would he not be saved?

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

I think the answer lies in one of the most commonly quoted verses of the Bible:

God is love.​

If God is love, then any act of love is an act of God. If being closely connected with God is how we are saved, then anyone who sincerely tries to follow any philosophy of love would be saved. "The only way to the Father is through [Christ]"--but how does Christ manifest in people's lives? If a Buddhist who lives a good life on the Eightfold Path, takes care of his elderly mother, and gives to the poor has seen missionaries come through his village, but doesn't see a good reason to leave his good life with Buddha, why would he not be saved? If a man believes there's no God at all, and chooses to live his life in accordance with chivalry & honor, treating the women in his life well & putting constant effort into a virtuous life, why would he not be saved?

Or, think of it another way:

There's a man who constantly lives his life with generosity, dignity, and gratitude. He works hard every day in a non-profit organization to free victims of sex trafficking, for a low salary but high morals. He spends as much time as he can with his wife & kids, giving time, talent, and treasure to give his kids a great future and his wife a great husband. He does martial arts classes, to protect his children or wife in case of an attacker of any kind, and he runs an online campaign to combat inappropriate contentography. He does not believe in a God.

There's another man who is frequently lazy, not doing much around the house, content to let his wife do the work while he watches TV. He rarely donates any of his abundant money or time to anything, and often yells at his kids when they want to do something with him. He's not real worried about any of the evils in the world, because he doesn't feel like doing anything about it. He is a Christian, and goes to Church every Sunday.

Which man is saved?

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: As many people have pointed out, it sounds like I'm essentially promoting pelagianism, that is, following a heresy that states that salvation is separate from God, something that we can attain on our own. This was not the intent of this post.

The main idea behind posting this was the fact that many people go their whole lives without ever hearing a compelling argument to believe in Christ, or perhaps, they never hear anything about Christ. Evangelists may hand out papers that say "Believe in Jesus or you can't be saved!", but see it as yet another religion that says that heaven is only for believers of our brand of God.

My intent was not to say that we only need good works for eternal salvation; these are a necessary part of salvation, but it's not something we can do on our own, and we are still entirely dependent on God. I just find it difficult to believe that God would condemn anyone to Hell who never had a chance to hear about Jesus, or that a man who entirely believes in Buddhism, submitting himself to the good god he believes in, and lives a good life because of it, would be standing at judgement for Jesus to say "Surprise! Your god wasn't me, so you're going to hell!" That sounds like a sick and twisted god that I do not want to be around.

We are all created by God, in his image & likeness. Think of us as cars, with a GPS built in, always guiding us, whether we listen to it or not. This GPS would be the Holy Spirit, guiding us along a Godly life, and we have free will to follow its directions, or ignore it. Being made in His likeness, we naturally have an inclination towards goodness, truth, and beauty. Giving the examples of the two men, the non-believer who does well vs. the Christian who does poorly, was meant to illustrate that there are non-believers among us who follow Christ better than most of us, and although I don't have the authority to say whether or not anyone's saved (thank you, Anthony the Great, for reminding me of this; may God remove my pride that makes me think I know more than I do), it's good to keep in mind that there are people who submit themselves to Christian principles of love, mercy, and honor, without actually knowing that they know Christ.

Below is a sample from the Catechism that discusses salvation, and an article that goes into more detail than I have about the possible salvation of non-believers.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1949 Called to beatitude but wounded by sin, man stands in need of salvation from God. Divine help comes to him in Christ through the law that guides him and the grace that sustains him:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (1 Phil 2:12-13.)

Can Non-Christians Be Saved? | Catholic Answers

 

[Southernscotty]

Jesus Christ is the way, The truth and the life and none enters except through Him.

John 10:1 "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.

Mt 22:12 He asked, 'How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?' The man was speechless.

 

[Call me Nic]

The second man is saved.

We have all sinned and fallen short of God's glory (Romans 3:23). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and if we do not access the grace of God by faith (Romans 5:2), realizing that we are not saved by our own merits or any good works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5), and are only saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:13, Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31, John 14:6, 1 John 2:22-23) then we are not saved period. Christ does NOT manifest in people's lives as anyone other than Jesus Christ, because only by the name of Jesus Christ are men quickened unto eternal life and none other name (Acts of the Apostles 4:12). For as many as have sinned without the law shall perish without the law, but those who sin in the law are judged by the law (Romans 2:12). Whether they've ever heard of Jesus Christ or not, they have sinned and are therefore guilty before God (Romans 3:10), therefore we are all deserving of hell no matter what.

 

[Tree of Life]

The idea you're endorsing here is a wicked heresy. You're suggesting that we are saved by our love - in other words, our own moral efforts. Therefore, the person who loves more will be saved.

The Bible teaches that people are saved by Jesus Christ and that this salvation becomes apparent and manifest in people who place their faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Doug Melven]

Which man is saved?

I would say neither.
The one claiming Christianity in this hypothetical has no heart change.
And the one claiming there is no God, the Bible calls a fool. Psalm 14:1

It is not what we do that gets us eternal life.
Accepting Jesus Christ's gift of eternal life is the only thing that will get you into Heaven when you die. Romans 6:23

 

[Call me Nic]

I would say neither.
The one claiming Christianity in this hypothetical has no heart change.
And the one claiming there is no God, the Bible calls a fool. Psalm 14:1

It is not what we do that gets us eternal life.
Accepting Jesus Christ's gift of eternal life is the only thing that will get you into Heaven when you die. Romans 6:23

I figured when he said the man is a Christian, that the man believed in Jesus Christ, but was just living carnally and foolishly. But yeah, agreed brother, if he does not believe in his heart the Lord, neither man is saved.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Which man is saved?

That is and always has been for God to decide.

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

You're suggesting that we are saved by our love.

Quite the contrary; God guides all of us towards goodness, truth, and beauty. It's not our love, but following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, whether or not they know it as such.

We are all God's children, believers & unbelievers alike. Across the entire Bible, we read about the Holy Spirit/Spirit of God running through people, whether it's speaking through people, guiding people, or doing any Godly work through people. Our Bible is believed to be written by people that were following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to a more extreme extent.

God knows full well that not all of His children will hear of Him; why would He set them up for failure, give them life with no hope of salvation, losing something they never knew they needed? It only makes sense that He would instill in everyone a sense of the goodness, truth, and beauty that they should follow. Nonbelievers know full well that some actions are moral and others aren't; even if they never hear of any good argument for Christ, they would still be following Him, whether they know it or not.

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

That is and always has been for God to decide.

Absolutely.

 

[Acts2:38]

Allow me to respond with a quick answer, then I will explain why.

It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

I think the answer lies in one of the most commonly quoted verses of the Bible:

God is love.​

If God is love, then any act of love is an act of God. If being closely connected with God is how we are saved, then anyone who sincerely tries to follow any philosophy of love would be saved. "The only way to the Father is through [Christ]"--but how does Christ manifest in people's lives? If a Buddhist who lives a good life on the Eightfold Path, takes care of his elderly mother, and gives to the poor has seen missionaries come through his village, but doesn't see a good reason to leave his good life with Buddha, why would he not be saved? If a man believes there's no God at all, and chooses to live his life in accordance with chivalry & honor, treating the women in his life well & putting constant effort into a virtuous life, why would he not be saved?

You can be the pinnacle of goodness to all of human kind, but without obeying or knowing God, according to scripture, you will not be saved.

There's a man who constantly lives his life with generosity, dignity, and gratitude. He works hard every day in a non-profit organization to free victims of sex trafficking, for a low salary but high morals. He spends as much time as he can with his wife & kids, giving time, talent, and treasure to give his kids a great future and his wife a great husband. He does martial arts classes, to protect his children or wife in case of an attacker of any kind, and he runs an online campaign to combat inappropriate contentography. He does not believe in a God.

There's another man who is frequently lazy, not doing much around the house, content to let his wife do the work while he watches TV. He rarely donates any of his abundant money or time to anything, and often yells at his kids when they want to do something with him. He's not real worried about any of the evils in the world, because he doesn't feel like doing anything about it. He is a Christian, and goes to Church every Sunday.

Which man is saved?

They both, according to scripture, would fall short of being saved.

Now to the "Why" my responses were as such.

In response to your first segment of your OP
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 =

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Also see to Acts 17:30

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Claiming ignorance will no longer be an excuse. Not knowing God will be considered the same as not obeying Him.


In response to the second segment....

I would reiterate the two scriptures I posted above and add in for the "lazy" Christian explanation this....

2 Thessalonians 3:6-7
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

1 Timothy 5:8
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Each example you posted, was that of someone, according to scripture, who would not be saved.

 

[thecolorsblend]

It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

It's possible, in theory at least. It comes down to their culpability.

Which man is saved?

Maybe both. Maybe neither. It just depends.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

I think the answer lies in one of the most commonly quoted verses of the Bible:

God is love.​

If God is love, then any act of love is an act of God. If being closely connected with God is how we are saved, then anyone who sincerely tries to follow any philosophy of love would be saved. "The only way to the Father is through [Christ]"--but how does Christ manifest in people's lives? If a Buddhist who lives a good life on the Eightfold Path, takes care of his elderly mother, and gives to the poor has seen missionaries come through his village, but doesn't see a good reason to leave his good life with Buddha, why would he not be saved? If a man believes there's no God at all, and chooses to live his life in accordance with chivalry & honor, treating the women in his life well & putting constant effort into a virtuous life, why would he not be saved?

Or, think of it another way:

There's a man who constantly lives his life with generosity, dignity, and gratitude. He works hard every day in a non-profit organization to free victims of sex trafficking, for a low salary but high morals. He spends as much time as he can with his wife & kids, giving time, talent, and treasure to give his kids a great future and his wife a great husband. He does martial arts classes, to protect his children or wife in case of an attacker of any kind, and he runs an online campaign to combat inappropriate contentography. He does not believe in a God.

There's another man who is frequently lazy, not doing much around the house, content to let his wife do the work while he watches TV. He rarely donates any of his abundant money or time to anything, and often yells at his kids when they want to do something with him. He's not real worried about any of the evils in the world, because he doesn't feel like doing anything about it. He is a Christian, and goes to Church every Sunday.

Which man is saved?

I'm taking your first example:

Quote
If a Buddhist who lives a good life on the Eightfold Path, takes care of his elderly mother, and gives to the poor has seen missionaries come through his village, but doesn't see a good reason to leave his good life with Buddha, why would he not be saved?

If subsequently he loses everything and he and his mother end up on the streets, how has his good works helped?

Even if he recouped, and his mother is comfortable again, and then she dies from old age, how has his good deeds helped?

This is not a random query, but one that has been asked by ordinary and extraordinary thinkers, from Aristotle till now. The thinkers don't even accept the answers from adherents of worldviews that depend on faith. Faith does not count in logic and rationalism. The answer must be proved, utilising the scientific method, should be falsifiable, as stated by Karl Popper.

 

[Call me Nic]

I'm taking your first example:

Quote
If a Buddhist who lives a good life on the Eightfold Path, takes care of his elderly mother, and gives to the poor has seen missionaries come through his village, but doesn't see a good reason to leave his good life with Buddha, why would he not be saved?

If subsequently he loses everything and he and his mother end up on the streets, how has his good works helped?

Even if he recouped, and his mother is comfortable again, and then she dies from old age, how has his good deeds helped?

This is not a random query, but one that has been asked by ordinary and extraordinary thinkers, from Aristotle till now. The thinkers don't even accept the answers from adherents of worldviews that depend on faith. Faith does not count in logic and rationalism. The answer must be proved, utilising the scientific method, should be falsifiable, as stated by Karl Popper.

Why are you quoting me? Don't you mean to quote the OP?

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

I think the answer lies in one of the most commonly quoted verses of the Bible:

God is love.​

If God is love, then any act of love is an act of God. If being closely connected with God is how we are saved, then anyone who sincerely tries to follow any philosophy of love would be saved. "The only way to the Father is through [Christ]"--but how does Christ manifest in people's lives? If a Buddhist who lives a good life on the Eightfold Path, takes care of his elderly mother, and gives to the poor has seen missionaries come through his village, but doesn't see a good reason to leave his good life with Buddha, why would he not be saved? If a man believes there's no God at all, and chooses to live his life in accordance with chivalry & honor, treating the women in his life well & putting constant effort into a virtuous life, why would he not be saved?

Or, think of it another way:

There's a man who constantly lives his life with generosity, dignity, and gratitude. He works hard every day in a non-profit organization to free victims of sex trafficking, for a low salary but high morals. He spends as much time as he can with his wife & kids, giving time, talent, and treasure to give his kids a great future and his wife a great husband. He does martial arts classes, to protect his children or wife in case of an attacker of any kind, and he runs an online campaign to combat inappropriate contentography. He does not believe in a God.

There's another man who is frequently lazy, not doing much around the house, content to let his wife do the work while he watches TV. He rarely donates any of his abundant money or time to anything, and often yells at his kids when they want to do something with him. He's not real worried about any of the evils in the world, because he doesn't feel like doing anything about it. He is a Christian, and goes to Church every Sunday.

Which man is saved?

There is only one way into heaven and that is by Jesus Christ. Its not a matter of goodness or any ideal behavior. Everyone has sinned and that sin is a crime that carries the penalty of eternal death (Hell) - period. The Bible makes this very clear. Only Jesus is the acceptable sacrifice to pay for anyone's sin. If you don't have Jesus as your savior, you will be judged based on how you have lived in life. Any sin, no matter how small is still a capital crime in the courts of heaven.

Now as to someone who never heard of Jesus. The Bible says that God has made his presence and reality known in nature. So the concept of God is in all of nature and unless you have hardened your heart through false belief systems you will know thetr is a God that you need to find. That is why evolution that is pushed in America and other countries is so evil. It robs people of seeing God in nature.

But in the third world country, they don't have that issue. I know of a story in Africa where some tribe man could not just go along with the witch doctor and the false gods their tribe believed in. He kept looking up to heaven and saying into the air, God I know you are not the false gods of my tribes and I am asking to know you. Then one day he felt compelled that he had to go find this unknown God. So he decided he was going to walk all over Africa if he had to looking for this unkown God. I don't remember now, how long he walked, weeks or longer. He was from a remote unknown tribe. As he was out traveling he came across a missionary and got saved.

I have heard other stories of tribesman who prayed to the unknown God and asked God to send someone to their tribe because they wanted to know the true God. Eventually a missionary came to that tribe that no one knew that tribe even existed. But God had lead the missionary to go out into the unknown country side.

Then there is other stories of a more supernatural nature, where God translated someone to an unknown tribe to a person who wanted to hear the gospel. And then there is other testimonies of Jesus himself appearing to people for them to get saved. This is heard of a lot among Muslims. j

So all in all, everyone knows there is a God. Just like the old saying, their maybe some who believe in Atheism until war time. I have heard testimonies of Atheist in the trenches or fox holes during a bombing raid or being shelled with mortars cry out to God for protection.

God has put it into every bodies heart and in nature that there is a God and your need to find him. Furthermore, based on so many testimonies, I believe God makes it so that everyone who is looking for the true God, God will reveal to them one way or another the Gospel so that they can get saved.

But those who are not seeking God or are trying to live good thinking it will get them into heaven. Then that heart has knowingly rejected God.

 

[Micah888]

It's a question that many people have, and has been brought up on this forum before--if someone doesn't believe in Christ, if they've never heard of Him, or never heard a convincing argument for Him, or for whatever reason don't believe, are they still capable of being saved?

1. Those who knowingly and deliberately reject Christ, and refuse to obey the Gospel, cannot be saved.

2. If they haven't heard of Him, then they are totally capable of being saved. Hence the imperative to preach the Gospel.

3. The Gospel is not a matter of "convincing arguments" but A PROCLAMATION of Christ and Him crucified, and that God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent.

Many evangelists seem to forget these fundamentals.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Why are you quoting me? Don't you mean to quote the OP?

Sorry! Fixed!

 

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

You can be the pinnacle of goodness to all of human kind, but without obeying or knowing God, according to scripture, you will not be saved.

Let me ask you & everyone who thinks similar answers this question very directly:
No matter how a person lives, if they've never heard of Jesus, are they guaranteed to go to Hell?

 

[Albion]

The reason we say that belief in Christ as Lord and Savior is necessary is because that is what the Bible teaches. It is written all over the New Testament.

If you or I were God instead of He who is, we might do things differently. But we are not, so the word of God given by revelation answers such questions for us.

 

[Doug Melven]

No matter how a person lives, if they've never heard of Jesus, are they guaranteed to go to Hell?

Acts 4:12 There is no other name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.
Romans 1:20 says when people knew God they did not glorify Him as God.
Everybody on some level knows God.
The Heavens declare the glory of God and firmament shows His handiwork.
Jeremiah 29 says that if we seek God with all our heart, we will find Him.
If a person in one of these places where the Gospel has not gone starts searching for the True God, I believe God will find a way to get the Gospel to him.
Even if it means transporting someone like He did with Philip after he baptized the Ethiopian

 

[Acts2:38]

Let me ask you & everyone who thinks similar answers this question very directly:
No matter how a person lives, if they've never heard of Jesus, are they guaranteed to go to Hell?

To be very clear about one thing, this scripture is not my thought, but from God.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is also not my thoughts, but scriptures aka from God.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I'm not making the rules, the commands are made by God in the gospel.