Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[BurningBush84]

If the Rich Man's body was in Hades suffering than that would be a contradiction. I don't believe the Bible has any significant contradictions. That's why I believe only the Rich Man's spirit/soul is in Hades.

The Bible describes human beings as consisting of both bodies and souls(spirit) (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Matthew 10:28, Matthew 16:26, 2 Corinthians 5:6-9; Philippians 1:21-26). We find such life in the womb before birth (Psalm 139:13-18). Revelation 6:9 and Revelation 20:4 speak clearly of the soul that exists beyond the death of the body.

Jesus told the Thief next to him "today you will be with me in paradise". Luke 23:43

That criminal went to Paradise that day. And I'm sure he's very happy currently. The Rich Man looked up . That might mean people in Hell can look up and watch the souls who are enjoying Heaven while they suffer down below. I believe God only allowed Abraham to see the Rich Man.

I know it's hard to believe. The Rich Man also didn't believe in Hell. He believed in annihilation (RIP). That's why he said, "No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’".

 

[Servus]

Obviously there's no ECT in UR. Is Hebrews 9:27 a fact ??? It says "once". But you believe some people die twice .

I've never stated that's what I believe. So how did you come up with that?

Hebrews 9:27 is exactly what happened in Luke 16:19-31.

No one has received final judgment yet, because it hasn't taken place yet. You see, according to Revelation, someday in the future, there will be the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[BurningBush84]

I've never stated that's what I believe. So how did you come up with that?

No one has received final judgment yet, because it hasn't taken place yet. You see, according to Revelation, someday in the future, there will be the Great White Throne Judgement.

So when Hebrews 9:27 says "once", is that a fact ???

Yes Revelation is talking about a Public Judgement. But the Thief on the Cross went to Paradise that day. Abraham was already in Heaven . So is Moses and Elijah , so they obviously received judgement. The Rich Man's soul received a private judgement.
And on the Last Day those private judgements on people's souls will be made PUBLIC.

 

[Der Alte]

There's no except. They could all be figurative. Since the argument you're making can be arbitrary it can't prove your claim. And, in the verses I quoted, it said of the aion that it ends. There's nothing figurative about that.

You evidently do not know how language works. When Jesus said those who have "aionios life...shall not perish" three times, no way "aionios" can be figurative. And there are 7 other vss. where Jesus defines/describes, "aionios' as eternal. There are also 10 more vss, written by Paul, Peter and John which also describe/define "aionios" as eternal/everlasting/for ever. That is 20 vss.
Example of a vs. where "aionios" describes but is not itself defined/described.

John 12:25
(25) He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.​

 

[Der Alte]

If the Rich Man's body was in Hades suffering than that would be a contradiction. I don't believe the Bible has any significant contradictions. That's why I believe only the Rich Man's spirit/soul is in Hades.
The Bible describes human beings as consisting of both bodies and souls(spirit) (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Matthew 10:28, Matthew 16:26, 2 Corinthians 5:6-9; Philippians 1:21-26). We find such life in the womb before birth (Psalm 139:13-18). Revelation 6:9 and Revelation 20:4 speak clearly of the soul that exists beyond the death of the body.
Jesus told the Thief next to him "today you will be with me in paradise". Luke 23:43
That criminal went to Paradise that day. And I'm sure he's very happy currently. The Rich Man looked up . That might mean people in Hell can look up and watch the souls who are enjoying Heaven while they suffer down below. I believe God only allowed Abraham to see the Rich Man.
I know it's hard to believe. The Rich Man also didn't believe in Hell. He believed in annihilation (RIP). That's why he said, "No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’".

The rich man, whether corporal or spirit, had eyes and could see, had a tongue could speak, and could experience pain. Apparently, Lazarus, also dead, had a finger.
The story of Lazarus and the rich man, even if not literal, represented a person who violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​

Lazarus didn't even get the crumbs from the rich man's table.

 

[BurningBush84]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man, even if not literal, represented a person who violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8​

(7) If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:​

(8) But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​

Jesus said , "you will always have the poor among you". Matt 26:11

What does 1 Timothy 5:8 teach ?

"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.".

What about Christians who can only afford to provide for their own family ?

"Poor" people have been known to take advantage of people.

 

[DavidPT]

If the Rich Man's body was in Hades suffering than that would be a contradiction. I don't believe the Bible has any significant contradictions. That's why I believe only the Rich Man's spirit/soul is in Hades.

The Bible describes human beings as consisting of both bodies and souls(spirit) (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Matthew 10:28, Matthew 16:26, 2 Corinthians 5:6-9; Philippians 1:21-26). We find such life in the womb before birth (Psalm 139:13-18). Revelation 6:9 and Revelation 20:4 speak clearly of the soul that exists beyond the death of the body.

Jesus told the Thief next to him "today you will be with me in paradise". Luke 23:43

That criminal went to Paradise that day. And I'm sure he's very happy currently. The Rich Man looked up . That might mean people in Hell can look up and watch the souls who are enjoying Heaven while they suffer down below. I believe God only allowed Abraham to see the Rich Man.

I know it's hard to believe. The Rich Man also didn't believe in Hell. He believed in annihilation (RIP). That's why he said, "No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’".

If you agree that the soul is inside of the body and that it departs on death, and that you then think that the rich man is presently being tormented in hell, this means you apparently must think the soul is something that consists of body parts, such as a tongue, fingers, legs, arms, where all of that obviously requires skin and bones, that this is what leaves the body upon death. Otherwise, how do you reasonably explain these things if you are applying the fate of the rich man to the here and now?

If we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, Scripture already tells us that until one is bodily resurrected first, then judged and sentenced at the great white throne judgment, then bodily cast into the LOF, in the meantime no one is being tormented in hell. As if it makes sense to already be burning in hell upon death, then removed from there in order to be judged and sentenced, to then once again be cast into another burning hell. Apparently, the first time around, the fire wasn't hot enough or something. So, the one already burning in hell needs to be removed then cast into a hotter hell, I guess.

If some interpreters would simply stick to what Scripture is teaching, thus not interpret something in such a manner where it contradicts what Scripture is already clearly teaching, we wouldn't have any of these misinterpretations involving the rich man in Luke 16, to argue about. We would all just treat that account in light of what Scripture already teaches us, that no one is already bodily in hell being tormented since that can't happen until one is bodily resurrected first, then cast bodily into the LOF during the great white throne judgment. And clearly, per the account involving the rich man in Luke 16, he is being bodily tormented since only bodies have fingers and a tongue. Souls certainly don't.

In a future post I would like to take on your interpretation involving Luke 23:43 as well. You are ignoring a few things involving that account, or maybe didn't notice a few things which make your interpretation unlikely.

 

[BurningBush84]

If you agree that the soul is inside of the body and that it departs on death, and that you then think that the rich man is presently being tormented in hell, this means you apparently must think the soul is something that consists of body parts, such as a tongue, fingers, legs, arms, where all of that obviously requires skin and bones, that this is what leaves the body upon death. Otherwise, how do you reasonably explain these things if you are applying the fate of the rich man to the here and now?

If we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, Scripture already tells us that until one is bodily resurrected first, then judged and sentenced at the great white throne judgment, then bodily cast into the LOF, in the meantime no one is being tormented in hell. As if it makes sense to already be burning in hell upon death, then removed from there in order to be judged and sentenced, to then once again be cast into another burning hell. Apparently, the first time around, the fire wasn't hot enough or something. So, the one already burning in hell needs to be removed then cast into a hotter hell, I guess.

If some interpreters would simply stick to what Scripture is teaching, thus not interpret something in such a manner, where it contradicts what Scripture is already clearly teaching, we wouldn't have any of these misinterpretations involving the rich man in Luke 16, to argue about. We would all just treat that account in light of what Scripture already teaches us, that no one is already bodily in hell being tormented since that can't happen until one is bodily resurrected first, then cast bodily into the LOF during the great white throne judgment. And clearly, per the account involving the rich man in Luke 16, he is being bodily tormented since only bodies have fingers and a tongue. Souls certainly don't.

In a future post I would like to take on your interpretation involving Luke 23:43 as well. You are ignoring a few things involving that account, or maybe didn't notice a few things which make your interpretation unlikely.

Why do I have to know what the soul exactly is ? Your basically telling me that soul and body are the exact same thing. Matthew 10:28 proves the soul and body are not the exact same thing. It appears body and soul have a lot in common, alot of similarities. But Matthew 10:28 shows body and soul are not the exact same thing.

I don't believe the Rich Man's body is in Hades. Only his soul/spirit. The Rich Man and Lazarus died and they received a private judgement. On the Last Day those private judgements will be made PUBLIC.

On the Last Day body and soul will be reunited. And the Rich Man will be transferred to the Lake of Fire. Where his soul AND his body will endure eternal destruction.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus said , "you will always have the poor among you". Matt 26:11
What does 1 Timothy 5:8 teach ?
"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.".
What about Christians who can only afford to provide for their own family ?
"Poor" people have been known to take advantage of people.

These things are true but not really relevant to the Lazarus/rich man story. I recently saw a news article were someone had defrauded welfare of 1000s of dollars.

 

[Butch5]

You evidently do not know how language works. When Jesus said those who have "aionios life...shall not perish" three times, no way "aionios" can be figurative. And there are 7 other vss. where Jesus defines/describes, "aionios' as eternal. There are also 10 more vss, written by Paul, Peter and John which also describe/define "aionios" as eternal/everlasting/for ever. That is 20 vss.
Example of a vs. where "aionios" describes but is not itself defined/described.

John 12:25​

(25) He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.​

You're too funny. Please, just show me "ONE" verse where Jesus describes aionios as eternal.

 

[Servus]

You evidently do not know how language works. When Jesus said those who have "aionios life...shall not perish" three times, no way "aionios" can be figurative. And there are 7 other vss. where Jesus defines/describes, "aionios' as eternal. There are also 10 more vss, written by Paul, Peter and John which also describe/define "aionios" as eternal/everlasting/for ever. That is 20 vss.
Example of a vs. where "aionios" describes but is not itself defined/described.

John 12:25​

(25) He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.​

A lot of that depends on one's understanding of aionios zoe. Which is basically abundant life. Or living life to its fullest. There's not necessarily a measure of time involved. But rather a measure of quality.

 

[Der Alte]

@Butch5 @Ordinary Christian
Jesus said three times that "aionios zoe" "aionios" life means a life "that shall not perish."
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
“aionios” is never translated “age(s)”
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything common, ordinary, mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following 26 verses “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei [Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, [Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[b28 I give eternal life to them; [] they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[5]EOB John 10:28
(28) I give eternal [aionios] life to them; they will never perish, [οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα] and no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means unto eternity.

[Character Limit. Continued next post]​

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[Butch5]

@Butch5 @Ordinary Christian
Jesus said three times that "aionios zoe" "aionios" life means a life "that shall not perish."
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
“aionios” is never translated “age(s)”
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything common, ordinary, mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following 26 verses “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei [Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, [Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[4] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[b28 I give eternal life to them; [] they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

[5]EOB John 10:28​

(28) I give eternal [aionios] life to them; they will never perish, [οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα] and no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”​

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.​

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.​

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.​

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.​

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means unto eternity.​

​

[Character Limit. Continued next post]​

​

​

No, Jesus didn't say aionios life means a life that will not perish. He contrasted aionios life with shall not perish. There's a huge difference between making a contrast between two things and giving a definition for a word.

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” twenty two [22] times. In the following 14 verses Paul defines/describes “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite age life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)," a finite period, cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc.

[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” By definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” God is not going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an indeterminate age. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios]​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite age, God cannot be “immortal” and exist only for a finite age at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios life” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite age,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” and “aionios” with “immortal.” “Aion”/”aionios” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite age and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion”/”aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite ‘age’ life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios/ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[indent][23]Romans 6:23
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal [αιωνιος/aionios]life [/indent]
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “death” with [αιωνιος/aionios] life. By definition aionios mean “eternal.”
[indent][24]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αιωνιος/aionios] life through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/indent]
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “corruption” with life [αιωνιος/aionios]. By definition aionios mean “everlasting.”

[25]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite age” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition means “eternal.”

[26]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” means “eternity”

[27]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[28]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon lit. unto eternities of eternities] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite age” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “unto eternities of eternities.”

= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé

●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή/ ou mé has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή/ou mé also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή/ ou mé (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

 

[Der Alte]

No, Jesus didn't say aionios life means a life that will not perish. He contrasted aionios life with shall not perish. There's a huge difference between making a contrast between two things and giving a definition for a word.

I'm sorry you apparently do not know the meaning of "contrast."

John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

EOB John 10:28
(28) I give eternal [aionios] life to them; they will never perish, [οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα] and no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

 

[Butch5]

I'm sorry you apparently do not know the meaning of "contrast."

John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

EOB John 10:28​

(28) I give eternal [aionios] life to them; they will never perish, [οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα] and no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

This argument was wrong the first 3,000,000 times you made it. It's still wrong

 

[BurningBush84]

So the good Atheist is ultimately going to get the same punishment as Hitler ?? The punishment of Resting In Peace forever.

 

[Der Alte]

This argument was wrong the first 3,000,000 times you made it. It's still wrong

I have heard better arguments in a preschool playground. "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Show me exactly how any argument I have made is wrong!
For my "aionios" argument please see Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon, which represents about 120-160 years of combined Greek scholarship. Previous post at this link.

Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

What does it say then? The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40 Red herring deflection from dealing with: The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of...

www.christianforums.com

ETA:

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” By definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.

 

[Servus]

So the good Atheist is ultimately going to get the same punishment as Hitler ?? The punishment of Resting In Peace forever.

If Hitler had been caught and convicted, he would have been punished by being put to death. Punishing him by means of protracted torture would have been called cruel and unusual punishment.

BTW have you ever considered that the millions of Jews who died slow agonizing deaths in Hitler's concentration camps will be receiving the same eternal punishment as Hitler?

 

[Butch5]

I have heard better arguments in a preschool playground. "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Show me exactly how any argument I have made is wrong!
For my "aionios" argument please see Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon, which represents about 120-160 years of combined Greek scholarship. Previous post at this link.

Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

What does it say then? The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Matthew 25:40 Red herring deflection from dealing with: The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of...

www.christianforums.com

ETA:

Romans 1:20​

(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:​

Romans 16:26​

(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” By definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.

I already have, numerous times. You post these sources as if they're authoritative and then when the same source is used to disprove what you say the source is no longer any good. It's simply a matter of what you post is correct and everything else is incorrect, aka, Cherry Picking.

I asked you to show me one verse where Jesus defines aionios as eternal, I'm still waiting.