Why would God create a flawed creation?

brixken7 · Feb 23, 2015

Oafman said:
He could just have created us humble, and avoided the need for a painful lesson

.............................................

Do you know of a scripture that will prove your point?

I think if what you say was possible and the really BEST thing to do, then God would have done it. And we should note that humility, per se, is not a fruit of God's holy spirit in Galatians 5:22.

"We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the transcendence of the power may be of God and not of us"
(II Corinthians 4:7; CLNT).

jacknife · Feb 23, 2015

brixken7 said:
.............................................

Do you know of a scripture that will prove your point?

I think if what you say was possible and the really BEST thing to do, then God would have done it. And we should note that humility, per se, is not a fruit of God's holy spirit in Galatians 5:22.

"We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the transcendence of the power may be of God and not of us"
(II Corinthians 4:7; CLNT).

well is god omnipotent?

brixken7 · Feb 23, 2015

"well is god omnipotent?" --jacknife
....................

That's a question, jacknife, you should ask those who do not believe God is able to save everyone.

thepromiseofgrace · Feb 23, 2015

God is all knowing and all powerful.

GoldenBoy89 · Feb 23, 2015

thepromiseofgrace said:
God is all knowing and all powerful.

And that is where this whole thread came from. If God is all knowing and all powerful then He either wanted the world to be as it is (which not only makes him sadistic but also deceitful for suggesting that it could have been any other way) or, things didn't go according to plan and he either couldn't do anything about that or didn't know what would happen.

FireDragon76 · Feb 23, 2015

GoldenBoy89 said:
And that is where this whole thread came from. If God is all knowing and all powerful then He either wanted the world to be as it is (which not only makes him sadistic but also deceitful for suggesting that it could have been any other way)

I don't understand how that would make God sadistic, since sadism implies taking delight in inflicting pain, and that goes against Christian theology, both in God's perfection (God is eternally satisfied in himself), and the Biblical witness, which doesn't show sadism to be an attribute of God.

Oafman said:
He could just have created us humble, and avoided the need for a painful lesson

Not possible, since humility is a virtue that has to be developed by a creature that is free to be proud and self-reliant.

Eudaimonist · Feb 23, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
Not possible, since humility is a virtue that has to be developed by a creature that is free to be proud and self-reliant.

Hardwired humility might not be a virtue, and perhaps shouldn't be called "humility" to avoid confusion, but it would satisfy the issue.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Messy · Feb 23, 2015

Oafman said:
He could just have created us humble, and avoided the need for a painful lesson

Hey an alternative for robots and monkeys, just kids that stayed small.

FireDragon76 · Feb 23, 2015

Eudaimonist said:
Hardwired humility might not be a virtue, and perhaps shouldn't be called "humility" to avoid confusion, but it would satisfy the issue.

Mark

So in other words, God should have created us to be unconscious automata.

I notice a tendency among atheists to embrace a nihilistic desire to return to unconsciousness.

ToBeBlessed · Feb 23, 2015

netzarim said:
If God was omniscient and omnipotent, then he wouldn't have knowingly created a flawed creation. However, creation is obviously flawed, so one of the following must be true:

1. While God is compassionate and loving, he is not omniscient (he could not see the results of his action), or
2. While God is compassionate and loving, he is not omnipotent (he could not create a perfect creation, or he did not have the power to sustain perfection in his creation), or
3. God is omniscient and omnipotent but uncompassionate and unloving (towards his creation he originated, dooming many to hell which he foreknew).

What saith ye?

Man was originally in perfect communion with God (pre-apple, pre-sin).

Genesis 2:15-17
Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:8-10
"They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." "

Man through his freedom to CHOOSE made a choice.

"And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?""

God created man in His image, with the freedom of choice. God never intended for us to blindly serve Him. He wanted us to WANT TO serve and love Him.

So fast forward to today. Man still has to CHOOSE God through His Son Jesus Christ. Man still has to CHOOSE.

John 15:12-15
This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. "

ToddNotTodd · Feb 23, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
So in other words, God should have created us to be unconscious automata.

I notice a tendency among atheists to embrace a nihilistic desire to return to unconsciousness.

It's demonstrable that an omnipotent God could have created mankind with free fill but without any desire to cause suffering.

So the whole "God didn't want robots" spiel is a false dichotomy.

GoldenBoy89 · Feb 23, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
I don't understand how that would make God sadistic, since sadism implies taking delight in inflicting pain, and that goes against Christian theology, both in God's perfection (God is eternally satisfied in himself), and the Biblical witness, which doesn't show sadism to be an attribute of God.

Perhaps you're right. Sadistic implies that He enjoys our suffering. At the very least, He is apathetic toward human suffering.

The only options are: He can stop suffering but chooses not to (or has some greater purpose for suffering that we are not privy to) or He cannot stop suffering and is therefore impotent.

Either way, He fails to match his descriptions.

ToBeBlessed · Feb 23, 2015

I love all these inconclusive options of what God is mixed with a little of Can God do.

For non-believers you give our God a lot of thought.

It's a good thing too. I'm praying for you all. God wants ALL his children to come to him. That means You, you are a part of the ALL.

brixken7 · Feb 23, 2015

Originally Posted by Oafman

"He could just have created us humble, and avoided the need for a painful lesson"

"Not possible, since humility is a virtue that has to be developed by a creature that is free to be proud and self-reliant." -- FireDragon76
__________________

WELL SAID, FireDragon76!
Am saving your very-fitly-spoken words.
Thanks.

-- brixken7

ToddNotTodd · Feb 23, 2015

ToBeBlessed said:
I love all these inconclusive options of what God is mixed with a little of Can God do.

For non-believers you give our God a lot of thought.

It's a good thing too. I'm praying for you all. God wants ALL his children to come to him. That means You, you are a part of the ALL.

The more thought I give to gods, the less likely I think their existence...

Jesse2014 · Feb 23, 2015

Good question.

I sometimes wondered that myself sometimes.

the iconoclast · Feb 23, 2015

If you did not know what is good. How would you know what is evil.

The question why would god create a flawed creation is a very complex question. I think your keyword is flawed. We are flawed that poses the question of good and evil, testing, etc.

A call out to all atheists. Let us reason together.

Gottservant · Feb 23, 2015

I think the phrasing is wrong.

The question is "why would God allow a suffering world to emerge?"

not "why does God go to the specific effort of minutely defining a world in which suffering is unavoidable?"

one is the Devil, not God

WoundedDeep · Feb 23, 2015

brixken7 said:
.................

WoundedDeep...you talk a lot...use a lot of words...but NO SCRIPTURES.
Do you feel your thoughts are more important than God's?

Everything I talk about or mention can be proven by Scriptures. They are not even my thoughts to begin with.

WoundedDeep · Feb 23, 2015

GoldenBoy89 said:
Perhaps you're right. Sadistic implies that He enjoys our suffering. At the very least, He is apathetic toward human suffering.

The only options are: He can stop suffering but chooses not to (or has some greater purpose for suffering that we are not privy to) or He cannot stop suffering and is therefore impotent.

Either way, He fails to match his descriptions.

He is not apathetic, or else He would not come in the fleshly body in the Name of Jesus Christ to deliver mankind from suffering.

He can stop suffering, and He wanted to do it in a way human can understand (not through some miracles that no human eye can see and no human mind can perceive), at the same time, allowing humans to be participants in choosing good over evil so suffering eventually stops. The current world perfectly allows for this to work, provided humans stop rebelling against Him and start becoming participants in His salvation plan (ie. through accepting Jesus Christ and believing His Gospel).

Why would God create a flawed creation?

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