juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
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Why would God create a flawed creation?
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juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
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I do not believe humans are created perfectly.
Buddhism is a story for another thread
I think you do not know what perfect is.
Talk about Buddhism is not out of line in this thread. Since you talked about perfection, is Buddhism perfect? If not, what flaw did Buddha make? (I know these are not precise questions. But could you give some sort of answers to them?)
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juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
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YOU. You are wrong.
What made you wrong was and is what went wrong. Do you know why are you wrong? Because you want to be wrong. That is what went wrong.
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GoldenBoy89
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It went from perfect to flawed because 'sin' entered the world?.. Then where did the sin come from, if the world was perfect before?
How could anyone sin in a perfect world? Why would they?
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Archie the Preacher
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"Free Will" is what all the anti-God faction considers the 'flaw' in God's Creation, the Universe. "Free Will" is what the atheist faction desires above all.
God Created a perfect and flawlessly functioning Universe. That went south when mankind decided to ignore what God said was right and proper. Man's ability to ignore God was part of the free will God gave to man.
Of course, had God NOT given man free will, there would be no atheists and no kvetching about it.
Irony at soooo many levels.
God Created a perfect and flawlessly functioning Universe. That went south when mankind decided to ignore what God said was right and proper. Man's ability to ignore God was part of the free will God gave to man.
Of course, had God NOT given man free will, there would be no atheists and no kvetching about it.
Irony at soooo many levels.
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Archaeopteryx
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Yes, perfect and flawless, except for that oversight where he forgot to give Adam and Eve the capacity to morally comprehend his command to not eat the fruit forbidden to them because doing so would result in all manner of death and destruction. But other than that, flawless.
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I have read my Bible, for 30+ years
I was interested in your perspective on what went wrong.Where did that sin come from?
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"want" = "free will" ... Why did he give his creation "free will"? Is there "free will" in heaven?
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juvenissun
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Yes, there is plenty of free will in the Heaven.
Why? That is a good question. But it is not that hard to answer.
Because God values that.
To have free will in the Heaven is a very very hard thing to do. I do not know any god can do that except the Christian God.
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GoldenBoy89
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This ought to be good....
I'm not sure I can agree with a concept of perfection that contains disobedient subjects. Where would they get the idea to disobey?
Think about it... Why would man, while living in perfection, suddenly 'decide' outta the blue, to ignore God, the Creator of the Universe? The being solely responsible for their lives and all the perfect beauty that exists in the world. I mean... They had to have known who they were dealing with...
Did He not prove His absolute authority? Was He just as mysterious then as He seems to be today? Maybe He never really explained the consequences of their actions too well. I don't know.
Your perfect world was flawed from the start. Either due to incompetence or it was intentional. But the flaw is not us if we were once part of that 'perfect' creation.
I don't think you quite catch the ironiest part of it all....
Tell me.... Will there be freewill in heaven?
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I say the premise is flawed. God didn't create a flawed universe. He created a good and sinless dynamic and interactive universe full of unrealized potential that even if it were to go awry would in no way interfere with his purpose in creating the relational creatures, the ones created in His image, because He is sovereign even over sin.
We get caught up in issues of volitional agency, moral corruptness, and theodicy because we ourselves have become corrupted, much different than the good and sinless pre-disobedient Adam and Eve.
God told Adam not to disobey Him but Adam did so. God told A&E that when they disobeyed Him they would die. Paul tells us that through the disobedience of Adam death came to all men. The facts of scripture are such that Adam didn't drop dead the moment he disobeyed God and Paul was still quite animated physically when he penned the letter to the Romans. So was God mistaken or lying? Or should we understand that the death to which God was alluding in Gen. 2:17 wasn't physical death but some other form of death?
You see the Bible speaks of death (and life) in diverse ways. Many Christians understand the Garden's death to be "spiritual" death, which I think is a fair enough term but its not a term actually used in scripture. The Genesis three account speaks more of an existential death or a relational death: in the moment of Adam's disobedience he became estranged from 1) God, 2) himself, 3) others, and 4) the world over which he'd just moments earlier been the divinely-mandated steward. He died in terms of his relationship to God, self, others, and creation. He no longer knew and was a part of creation as had once been. The term the Bible uses is "dead in transgression." (Eph. 2:1-5, Col. 2:13) We are, so to speak, "transgressionally dead."
This means that even though we walk and talk and breath air and pump blood we are not really alive as God originally made us alive. We are animated, not alive. We are the animated dead, plodding through what we think is life until our physical body wears out. Then, when we eventually die physically we will already be relationally, transgressionally dead. In other words, we will die already having died. We'll be twice dead. We'll die already dead.
However, God's sovereign plan for creation is undeterred by this event. Many Christians wrestle with whether or not Adam's disobedience was part of the plan or not. The question itself is misguided because Adam's sin is irrelevant to God's plan (which is described in part in 1 Cor. 3:35-54).
Jesus was chosen to be the perfect sacrifice before the creation of the world (1 Pet. 1:19-20). In other words, he was chosen before the world was created, before the Garden was created, before a single human was created, before any thought of sin ever occurred. That's not the reason he was chosen but his being so chosen covers all possible bases. God is sovereign over sin and He was sovereign over sin long before sin ever entered His creation!
So... in Christ we, the already-dead dying animated corpses called humans, have an opportunity to be reconciled to God, to be relationally restored, to be transgressionally forgiven, to be spiritually regenerate and thereby die alive.
So, not only did God not create a flawed creation but even in its subsequent corruption it serves God's purpose just fine.
It doesn't take much of a god to create a deterministic world. any god can do that. That god is the god of little green army men; the four-year old god. It takes a big-G God to create a dynamic and interactive world full of unrealized dialectic potential and still remain sovereign over whatever may happen.
And that's simply not so obvious for fallen, broken, and corrupt creatures to fathom.
We get caught up in issues of volitional agency, moral corruptness, and theodicy because we ourselves have become corrupted, much different than the good and sinless pre-disobedient Adam and Eve.
God told Adam not to disobey Him but Adam did so. God told A&E that when they disobeyed Him they would die. Paul tells us that through the disobedience of Adam death came to all men. The facts of scripture are such that Adam didn't drop dead the moment he disobeyed God and Paul was still quite animated physically when he penned the letter to the Romans. So was God mistaken or lying? Or should we understand that the death to which God was alluding in Gen. 2:17 wasn't physical death but some other form of death?
You see the Bible speaks of death (and life) in diverse ways. Many Christians understand the Garden's death to be "spiritual" death, which I think is a fair enough term but its not a term actually used in scripture. The Genesis three account speaks more of an existential death or a relational death: in the moment of Adam's disobedience he became estranged from 1) God, 2) himself, 3) others, and 4) the world over which he'd just moments earlier been the divinely-mandated steward. He died in terms of his relationship to God, self, others, and creation. He no longer knew and was a part of creation as had once been. The term the Bible uses is "dead in transgression." (Eph. 2:1-5, Col. 2:13) We are, so to speak, "transgressionally dead."
This means that even though we walk and talk and breath air and pump blood we are not really alive as God originally made us alive. We are animated, not alive. We are the animated dead, plodding through what we think is life until our physical body wears out. Then, when we eventually die physically we will already be relationally, transgressionally dead. In other words, we will die already having died. We'll be twice dead. We'll die already dead.
However, God's sovereign plan for creation is undeterred by this event. Many Christians wrestle with whether or not Adam's disobedience was part of the plan or not. The question itself is misguided because Adam's sin is irrelevant to God's plan (which is described in part in 1 Cor. 3:35-54).
Jesus was chosen to be the perfect sacrifice before the creation of the world (1 Pet. 1:19-20). In other words, he was chosen before the world was created, before the Garden was created, before a single human was created, before any thought of sin ever occurred. That's not the reason he was chosen but his being so chosen covers all possible bases. God is sovereign over sin and He was sovereign over sin long before sin ever entered His creation!
So... in Christ we, the already-dead dying animated corpses called humans, have an opportunity to be reconciled to God, to be relationally restored, to be transgressionally forgiven, to be spiritually regenerate and thereby die alive.
So, not only did God not create a flawed creation but even in its subsequent corruption it serves God's purpose just fine.
It doesn't take much of a god to create a deterministic world. any god can do that. That god is the god of little green army men; the four-year old god. It takes a big-G God to create a dynamic and interactive world full of unrealized dialectic potential and still remain sovereign over whatever may happen.
And that's simply not so obvious for fallen, broken, and corrupt creatures to fathom.
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GoldenBoy89
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Archie the Preacher
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GoldenBoy89
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That's interesting.
So, are people free to do as they please in heaven?
I'm sure there will be rules in heaven (you know... Keep off the grass, don't kill or rape angels... that sorta thing) Could someone possibly break the rules in heaven?
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GoldenBoy89
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Why would a compassionate and loving God create anyone in the first place, if he had the omniscient foreknowledge that even part of his creation would suffer hell?
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