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Why would God create a flawed creation? (2)

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GoldenBoy89

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Sorry, I don't understand your point. Nowhere have I said that anything in the universe is now or has ever been perfect.

I have simply said that finite things by definition can never be perfect; so complaining about imperfection in the universe is like complaining about hydrogen in water.

You at the very least acknowledge that the universe is imperfect... Wouldn't it be more likely to be that way through natural means than by the will of a perfect being?

Why on earth would a perfect being aim for imperfection in His creation?
 
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yesyoushould

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What you're describing is a flawed creation though. If the creation is susceptible to corruption, then it's certainly not perfect.

It is sort of like pruning a bush.

If we understand that sin(corruption) dies, and that it is a choice to sin, than we understand the consequences.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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It is sort of like pruning a bush.

The way I understand perfection, it's nothing something you need to keep up or maintain. It's just perfect. If the world had any chance to devolve into sin, suffering whatever, then it never was perfect to begin with.
 
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yesyoushould

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The way I understand perfection, it's nothing something you need to keep up or maintain. It's just perfect. If the world had any chance to devolve into sin, suffering whatever, then it never was perfect to begin with.

You are right, God is perfect, eternally. When the devil claimed to be The Maker(rebel against God), lies happened(death). It is the parable of the chaff and the wheat. The chaff is cast into the fire and the wheat is saved.
 
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yesyoushould

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The way I understand perfection, it's nothing something you need to keep up or maintain. It's just perfect. If the world had any chance to devolve into sin, suffering whatever, then it never was perfect to begin with.

You are right, God is perfect, eternally. When the devil claimed to be The Maker(rebel against God), lies happened(death). It is the parable of the chaff and the wheat. The chaff is cast into the fire and the wheat is saved.

The truth is, that only goodness exists. We are witnesses to the removal of death.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Having such a nihilistic outlook on life is hardly a sign of mental health, if you believe a Creator would have to be evil for creating such a universe, you make a necessary judgment on the universe in the process. Do you really feel life is so horrible? I don't. Yes, it is unpleasant at times but that is not all life is.

Nihilistic? Really?

I'm not in the least a nihilist, I love life and all that goes with it.

But, I am realistic, there's a lot of terrible things that happen out there. For example, natural disasters. If you consider them just to be natural disasters (meaning in a universe without a god), then they are unfortunate, tragic occurrences. However, that doesn't make life any less precious. In fact, it shows us exactly how valuable life is. You can't really call those things evil either... they just happen as a part of nature. It sucks, but it happens.

If you have a creator god though, that means those natural disasters are a direct result of his intentional design. The Romans who were buried under volcanic ash at Pompeii when Vesuvius erupted, the 230,000 people that died in the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami, Hurricane Katrina, etc.

Even if you want to argue god didn't purposefully start those specific incidents, he still created a world with volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, plagues, wildfires, and many other forms of nasty ways for people to meet a painful, gruesome death. It's inevitable that those things would cause said gruesome deaths by the millions over time.

Now, again, if those things just unintentionally happen as a part of nature, it's unfortunate. However, if those kinds of things were purposefully designed, then that's evil. And whoever designed it is evil as well.

And yet I bet you look at the statistics, those people are probably just as healthy as everyone else, because elements of their religious beliefs discourage them from engaging in physically harmful activities, such as drinking or smoking. You can't judge a faith by looking at one belief in isolation.

Well, actually yes you can, here is why:

You don't need religion to provide good reasons to not smoke, or drink to excess. To demonstrate that I'll use myself as an example. I'm an atheist, I've never smoked a cigarette in my life, nor have I done any form of drug (including pot). I drink socially when I'm out with friends, but usually keep it to a drink or two (which I think anyone would agree is safe behaviour).

My reasoning is quite simple. As for smoking, I've never gotten the point behind paying a fortune to suck on a burning tube of chemicals, which will eventually ruin your lungs and potentially cause cancer, while making you smell terrible in the process.

As for drugs, I've also never gotten the point of paying a fortune to "alter your consciousness" while leaving yourself susceptible to any number of physical problems, or life crippling addiction, or overdose causing death. I like my consciousness as it is, I don't need to pay to alter it, especially when that's the potential cost.

It makes no sense for me to ever want to go down those roads. I don't need a religion to tell me that, and neither do the Mormons as my reasons also apply to them.

What you do need religion for are situations like parents who decide to pray over their sick and dying infants instead of taking them to the hospital, or Jehovah's Witnesses who refuse life saving blood transfusions because of what the bible says, or adults who are duped into visiting faith healers, and promptly giving them all their money for false hope, and no actual treatment.


The point is, if your religion happens to preach something that is good health advice, then it's good because it's good health advice, not because it's what your religion says. The message, and effects of that message are still the same regardless of your religions position on it.

On the flip side, if your religion preaches bad health advice, then it's still bad health advice for the same reasons as above. The problem is though, without religion no rational person would ever think treating cancer by talking to themselves (i.e. praying) would be remotely effective, and therefore nobody would ever do it. But because of the religious element, thousands of people do just that, often to fatal results.

FWIW, mainstream Christians don't discourage doctors visits. In fact the book of Ecclessiasticus, a piece of literature from the Second Temple Jewish period, honors doctors (Sirach 38:1-2), and a doctor has always been second to a rabbi in the Jewish community in terms of prestige. The early church had two saints, Damian and Cosmas, who were physicians that treated the poor, and they are still honored today in many churches.

No question, but that doesn't actually change the reality of what we see in the world. Every few weeks there's the inevitable story about how some fundamentalist family had a kid die from a very treatable condition, because they decided to pray instead of taking them to the doctor.
 
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Dave Ellis

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If you go to a museum and trash a Salvador Dali painting, are you responsible or is Salvador Dali (since he created the painting and allowed me to view it) responsible for the damage?

The answer is as simple as that. What was once perfect has been destroyed by men.


I didn't realize Salvador Dali was a perfect creator akin to your god. I'll have to look into his body of work, it must be very impressive.

Or, wait.... did you mean your god is comparable to the imperfect human Salvador Dali who had no way to eternally safeguard his work?
 
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Dave Ellis

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It is sort of like pruning a bush.

If we understand that sin(corruption) dies, and that it is a choice to sin, than we understand the consequences.


Why would you need to prune a perfect bush? If the bush needs pruning, it's not perfect.
 
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Inkfingers

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You at the very least acknowledge that the universe is imperfect... Wouldn't it be more likely to be that way through natural means than by the will of a perfect being?

Why on earth would a perfect being aim for imperfection in His creation?

Perfection is impossible in the universe for the reasons that I have given. Why would a perfect being seek the impossible? To do so would be a mark of imperfection in them.
 
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agua

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The way I understand perfection, it's nothing something you need to keep up or maintain. It's just perfect. If the world had any chance to devolve into sin, suffering whatever, then it never was perfect to begin with.

For the sake of giving the term perfect substance in relation to humans, can you give me some specific ideas ( attributes ) of how a human could have been created perfect ? ( Regardless of whether we think it's a requirement of Yahweh, or not )

I'd like to see where this leads if that's ok.
 
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stevevw

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I agree that none of us are forced to sin. Sin is a choice and death is the result.
Now everything is decaying. Some say that the genome of humans is slowly deteriorating with mutations. We are getting weaker and more vulnerable to diseases, viruses and mental illness. But certainly there is a collective damage being done to this world and its living creatures as time goes by. Thousands on species are dying every year. The earth is beginning to break.

Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:17-18).

So humans were not just cursed but the ground was also cursed as it would grow thorns. We have to grow food through toil and suffer the hardships of famine and death. All creation knows of this curse and not just us. We are all constantly under the stress of this life and we can feel the pain as our bodies grow old and wither away.
Romans 8:19-23
19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[a] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

But thank God that just as one man brought sin into the world one man in Jesus defeated that sin and saved us from death. We have a hope of eternal life where suffering and the curse of sin will be no more. We can look forward to this with joy even though we may suffer for a while now. For this life is just a blink of the eye when it comes to Gods eternal kingdom.

Romans 5:18 - 19.
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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J0hnSm1th

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God created all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL!

Evil creation chose to serve evil. God allows it. How come?
That is a poor argument. Jesus said "If you, who are evil, know how to give good things to your children. How much more will your father in heaven".

Many Christians use free will as a cop out. Saying God will not intervene to stop evil as it would contravene the free will of the offender. This premise ignores the free will of the victim! The bible is replete with many examples of God not tolerating evil and intervening most conclusively. "Free Will" is an overused concept in today's church.

God is benevolent, God has a plan. Therefore the evil we see happening is necessary as part of the overall plan. This doesnt mean God condones the evil. Just that his plan has factored in a degree of evil for fruition.
 
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J0hnSm1th

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But why would he create it that way knowing billions of souls are going to burn for eternity?
Any being that would willingly create a universe under those conditions is a monster.
I agree. Creating any universe where even one human ends up suffering for eternity would be unjust. Therefore suffering in Hell cannot be eternal. But thats a subject for a different thread.
 
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stevevw

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The way I understand perfection, it's nothing something you need to keep up or maintain. It's just perfect. If the world had any chance to devolve into sin, suffering whatever, then it never was perfect to begin with.
I dont think its case of being perfect like how we think perfect is. Its more of a state of existence. In another reality there may not be perfect and imperfect. It maybe a bit like water. When water is liquid its pliable and mostly usable. You can drink it, wash with it, sustain life and rehydrate things. This may have been how life was before sin came into the picture. Now that water has turned to ice and has lost much of its qualities. It maybe even drying up. So its not a case of perfection but a state of being.
 
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kristina411

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I didn't realize Salvador Dali was a perfect creator akin to your god. I'll have to look into his body of work, it must be very impressive.

Or, wait.... did you mean your god is comparable to the imperfect human Salvador Dali who had no way to eternally safeguard his work?

Lol

Anyone without their own individual opinions or ideas can twist anothers just to have something to say.

I do not wish to converse with such people so take care!
 
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Dave Ellis

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Lol

Anyone without their own individual opinions or ideas can twist anothers just to have something to say.

I do not wish to converse with such people so take care!


How did I twist what you said? You compared your god to Salvador Dali.
 
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kristina411

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Now you see, when I first started this site I came here for help with my Bible study. Found a philosophy section and thought to myself "neat!"

Little did I know I would learn even more about my faith through the atheists. The ones twisting words, the ones trying to find fault, trying to create contradictions out of thin air, ones who Jesus talked about.

You see, as a Christian we are taught to be "fishers of men" so often we are caught up in trying to offer every human the chance at the beautiful gift we have been given, redemption! Truth! Love! And when we see someone lost in the wilderness we think "oh, a lost sheep! Let me help them find their way." But because it is dark we do not see the sheep is really a wolf.

There are sheep amongst the atheists but they are surrounded by wolves. We think everyone is able to be saved. We think everyone deserves to be saved and if we could just answer enough questions they will finally put away their stubbornness and submit to God. So we find ourselves in an argument with our words twisted, people trying to catch us in a contradiction. The Scribes did this to Jesus, is it any coincidence that this method of attack continues today? I think not.

Matthew 6:11 "And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgement than for that city!"

Matthew 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

Matthew 10:16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."

Matthew 12:39 but He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."

I have learned to spot the wolves and they run wild in this section. Its no surprise.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I'm still waiting for you to point out where I twisted your words.


You made that comparison, not me. The only thing I did is take it to its logical conclusions. (which is what you did not do)

You compared your god to a human, and your gods work to a humans work. If you make a comparison, then you must think they are comparable. In order to make a comparison, you must have a standard by which to work with.

So, you are either comparing the work of humans (specifically Dali) to that of god, or you are comparing the work of god to that of humans.

In your post, written as you actually intended, option two applies. Your justification for god's design being able to fail was because other great works of art can also be spoiled.

All I'm trying to highlight is that if your god was indeed a supreme being, then he should have had the foresight and intelligence to safeguard his work of art. In effect, I'm giving your god more credit than you do. You're making excuses for him. Is he a supreme being, or is he not?
 
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