Why would a good God design a world of death?

[crawfish]

I think this is a fair question.

If we take evolution as ultimate fact and truth, then one must ask the question: Why did God, who is said to be loving, merciful, gentle and good, design a world filled with death, killing, savagery and sin? Why not just design a perfect world, free from all of these heinous things? If God is all-powerful, as He is asserted to be, why design a world in which animals live and die, eat each other indiscriminately, and one where it is virtually impossible for any human being (an evolved primate) to even follow His moral laws and commands (due to the fact that they are contrary to our very designed nature)? Why design a world where in order for one to win, another must lose? Why would a good world be a world of 'survival of the fittest?' Where does agape love / charity fit into there?

Can someone shed some light onto this for me?

Death is written into the very fabric of the universe. There is not one single organism that does not depend on some other living organism for sustenance. God designed things this way, and called it "very good".

 

[crawfish]

I don't think so.

I amended my answer since your profile says you are a Christian.

But we can believe all manner of things about God, can't we?

Just as some (apparently less than I'd like) Christians can believe that God is good, loving and kind, there are others who believe completely contrary things. How sad.

Do you believe in a good, loving and kind God who would throw someone into an eternal hell for simply not choosing to accept Him? Do you believe in a good, loving and kind God who ordered the death of men, women and children in the OT? Do you believe in a good, loving and kind God who allows all sorts of evil to exist in the world He created?

You are trying to simplify God. God's love is beyond our understanding, beyond our meager comprehension of the word.

 

[theFijian]

I think this is a fair question.

If we take evolution as ultimate fact and truth, then one must ask the question: Why did God, who is said to be loving, merciful, gentle and good, design a world filled with death, killing, savagery and sin? Why not just design a perfect world, free from all of these heinous things? If God is all-powerful, as He is asserted to be, why design a world in which animals live and die, eat each other indiscriminately, and one where it is virtually impossible for any human being (an evolved primate) to even follow His moral laws and commands (due to the fact that they are contrary to our very designed nature)? Why design a world where in order for one to win, another must lose? Why would a good world be a world of 'survival of the fittest?' Where does agape love / charity fit into there?

Can someone shed some light onto this for me?

Romans 9:20-23
[sup]20[/sup]But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" [sup]21[/sup]Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [sup]22[/sup]What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [sup]23[/sup]in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

Let us know if you need some help with the exegesis.

 

[theFijian]

No. lol

Did God drown every [anything]?

Did God ask Abraham for a human sacrifice as a test? The Jews have a legend you know. They claim a wicked angel named Mastema was the one who wanted God to offer Isaac up as sacrifice. Study it out.

Did God kill a couple for lying or was it Peter or the devil? How do you know?

God allows people to be raped and murdered each day too. How is that any different than Job (which most would agree, is nothing but a parable, BTW)?

If Genesis can be a parable, there's no way in Hades Job is a literal account. lol

My conclusion is er72 is either a poe, hugely hypocritical, or simply very confused

 

[Mallon]

Do you still think death is a 'good' thing?

What I think about death is besides the point. What matters is what GOD thinks about death. And what some of what God thinks about death is given in the passages I cited earlier.

 

[theistic evol]

I think this is a fair question.

If we take evolution as ultimate fact and truth, then one must ask the question: Why did God, who is said to be loving, merciful, gentle and good, design a world filled with death, killing, savagery and sin?[

First, why is physical death so bad? If we go to live with God after we die, then why would death be so bad? The death in Genesis 2 is spiritual death -- being cut off from God. That is bad.
Second, the natural world is not full of "sin". Sin applies to human beings. Cats, dogs, sharks, etc. cannot sin. To think that they can and do is to commit the naturalistic fallacy.

Why not just design a perfect world, free from all of these heinous things?

Because that would not be loving. It would be the ultimate Control Freak. Think of what God would have to do to keep any of us from sinning. Say a person thinks of rape. God must get into that man's mind and alter it so that the thought goes away. Talk about the ultimate in brain-washing and the invasion of privacy!

No, in order for our lives to have meaning, we must be able to make our own choices and those choices have to have real consequences. None of us are "moral" if we are prevented from even thinking immoral thoughts. We are not people, we are puppets dancing as God yanks on the strings.

So, humans have to be able to choose to do bad. What's more, we must be able to choose what happens to us if bad things happen. Who we are depends on what we do. If we are never faced with an earthquake, car accident, flood, etc. then we never get to choose how to react: do we help our fellow human beings or do we think only of ourself?

A loving God lets us be who we are, even when that is bad.

If God is all-powerful, as He is asserted to be, why design a world in which animals live and die, eat each other indiscriminately, and one where it is virtually impossible for any human being (an evolved primate) to even follow His moral laws and commands (due to the fact that they are contrary to our very designed nature)?

Is this against Special Creation now? It turns out that Darwinian selection is the only way to get design. So God has natural selection design species. And, no, predators don't eat indiscriminantly, they eat to stay alive. It's a way to earn a living.

We have a sinful nature because of natural selection. Natural selection is selfish. One thing it cannot do is make a trait that is only beneficial to another species. There must be some selfish benefit to the species with the trait. What was the sin of Adam and Eve? Selfishness. Putting their desires over God's command. We are sinful because of the very process that designed us.

Why design a world where in order for one to win, another must lose? Why would a good world be a world of 'survival of the fittest?'

The struggle for existence is a metaphorical struggle. Darwin made that clear. In a desert, 2 plants try to get/keep enough water to live. They don't steal each other's water. One may have thinner leaves than the other, so it loses less to evaporation. It does better, but the other does not have to "lose". In this case, one just does better.

Where does agape love / charity fit into there?

In how humans relate to each other.

Can someone shed some light onto this for me?[/quote]

 

[theistic evol]

If we truly believe God is all powerful, then why believe man explanation of how the world works over what God has told us?

Because God has told us evolution in His Creation and scripture is for theological messages, not how God created.

I believe God created the world perfect as the bible recounts the story.

The Bible doesn't say "perfect". It says "very good". However, you can't blame the imperfections on the Fall because the punishments for the Fall won't go that far; they are very specific and limited.

So you still have the problem of predators/prey, that all species produce more offspring than the enviroment can support, etc.

 

[Papias]

er72 - thanks for mentioning something I did not know.

This is a bit of a tangent, but er72 mentioned the demon mastema, so I googled the demon, and found a reference to various references that are in some Bibles (depending on which Bible you use).

One of the more interesting ones I found was that some Jews allege that the incident of God trying to kill moses in Ex 4:24 is actually the demon Mastema:

Ex chap 4:

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

I didn't realize that there was an incident where a literal interpretation has God trying (and failing!) to kill Moses.

Anyway - have a good day-

Papias

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I'm not entirely sure the responses thus far really address the legitimate problem of death. Death is a problem, in fact the problem of death is central to the core of Christian teaching and is addressed by the Incarnation. Death, within the Christian paradigm, is a fundamental wrongness within the cosmos.

I know for myself this is a legitimate point of theological reflection as I affirm the science of evolutionary processes while simultaneously affirming faith in the Resurrection.

I don't think it ought to be taken lightly.

Nor am I convinced there is a sufficient answer at all. That's something I'm personally okay with.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[addo]

There seem to be two false hidden assumptions here:

#1 This is the best world God could make. -- From here comes the question "how can God make in such an imperfect world?" Well, this world isn't supposed to be perfectly perfect, afaik.

#2 Animal death is bad. -- Well, it isn't.

One mustn't look for long to realise that (animal) death in our current world is necessary. For example wolves, foxes and other predatory animals must eat rabbits otherwise their population would overgrow quickly (I couldn't think of a better example). There is the excuse that all this death is the result of man's sin. But this isn't a good argument. If that were so then God must have done a lot of changes in nature for it to be so, but afaik this isn't hinted anywhere in the Scriptures or outside the Scriptures.

I'm sorry if I said something untrue.

 

[er72]

Do you believe in a good, loving and kind God who would throw someone into an eternal hell for simply not choosing to accept Him?

To answer the exact wording you said here, no.

Do you believe in a good, loving and kind God who ordered the death of men, women and children in the OT?

Not really.

Do you believe in a good, loving and kind God who allows all sorts of evil to exist in the world He created?

What does that have to do with this topic?

You are trying to simplify God. God's love is beyond our understanding, beyond our meager comprehension of the word.

You are trying to complicate God, good and evil.

That is a poor excuse. If God were really as complex as you science pushers assert, then you must understand that you cannot possibly begin to comprehend God either. So don't even bother trying to answer for Him.

 

[er72]

Is this against Special Creation now? It turns out that Darwinian selection is the only way to get design. So God has natural selection design species. And, no, predators don't eat indiscriminantly, they eat to stay alive. It's a way to earn a living.

Where in scientific theory does it say this?

We have a sinful nature because of natural selection. Natural selection is selfish. One thing it cannot do is make a trait that is only beneficial to another species. There must be some selfish benefit to the species with the trait. What was the sin of Adam and Eve? Selfishness. Putting their desires over God's command. We are sinful because of the very process that designed us.

Which God designed? Thus, God is responsible for sin, you are saying.

 

[er72]

er72 - thanks for mentioning something I did not know.

This is a bit of a tangent, but er72 mentioned the demon mastema, so I googled the demon, and found a reference to various references that are in some Bibles (depending on which Bible you use).

One of the more interesting ones I found was that some Jews allege that the incident of God trying to kill moses in Ex 4:24 is actually the demon Mastema:

Ex chap 4:



I didn't realize that there was an incident where a literal interpretation has God trying (and failing!) to kill Moses.

Anyway - have a good day-

Papias

You learn something new everyday.

Demons are often mentioned in the Apocrypha as ways to explain some of God's "contradictory" and "evil" behavior. Mastema is one example. Satan's appearance in newer Old Testament writings also make this clear. A quick study of Jewish demonology and mythos reveals that there were many spiritual forces working behind the scenes that "the LORD" is apparently blamed for saying or doing in the Old Testament. Demons didn't just magically appear in the New Testament (although I'm sure many here don't believe in demons, since they are "unscientific" and probably just a 'metaphor' for the evil we have inside ourselves, etc.)

If God is really good (which most people don't believe), then there is no way He could commit evil or sin, despite what is commonly taught. I find it ironic... you have people who chock Creation up to a myth, but they love all the stuff in the Bible about God supposedly killing people, etc. Kind of ironic, surely "those" stories are literal. (Why?) Because they support a death mentality and the idea of God as reveling in Death, not Life.

The True God is the God of Life - not Death.

 

[er72]

If all Christians think the way people do in this topic, I probably shouldn't be one.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

If God were really as complex as you science pushers assert, then you must understand that you cannot possibly begin to comprehend God either. So don't even bother trying to answer for Him.

God is the most powerful entity in existance. Why wouldn't he be incredibly complex?
I've only been skimming through this thread but it seems you believe a good loving God could not have created a world of pain and suffering - therefore there is no pain and suffering in the world. Is that what you're saying?

If I'm right this is certainly a very, uh, different interpretation. Usually atheists use this argument to try and show God doesn't exist because pain and suffering are so glaringly evident.

 

[er72]

God is the most powerful entity in existance. Why wouldn't he be incredibly complex?
I've only been skimming through this thread but it seems you believe a good loving God could not have created a world of pain and suffering - therefore there is no pain and suffering in the world. Is that what you're saying?

If I'm right this is certainly a very, uh, different interpretation. Usually atheists use this argument to try and show God doesn't exist because pain and suffering are so glaringly evident.

So power equals complexity? Huh. Where'd you get that from?

Isaiah (which is figurative, I'm sure) says "Woe to those who call evil good, and good, evil." But I'm sure that means nothing, as every other scripture we don't want to consider as being real. Just the stuff about Death is real. Rolleyes.

"I've only been skimming through this thread but it seems you believe a good loving God could not have created a world of pain and suffering - therefore there is no pain and suffering in the world. Is that what you're saying?"

No. Not at all. I don't know where you get this from. I think you might want to do more than "skim" the topic, if that is your final conclusion.

Atheists are right to say there is no God, in that their science (which many here love) does not require a god to be real. To have evolution, there is NO need for any god - certainly not the God of Christendom. If anyone was looking for a "logical" faith - I don't think Christianity has it. Deism or even some New Age notion of God probably make a lot more sense, especially if one were to espouse evolution as truth.

The atheists make some good points. They're misguided, but considering all they have is science, how can you blame them for reaching their conclusions? You can't.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

So power equals complexity? Huh. Where'd you get that from?

Well obviously a computer can do much more than a calculator, which is more difficult to build?

Atheists are right to say there is no God, in that their science (which many here love) does not require a god to be real. To have evolution, there is NO need for any god - certainly not the God of Christendom. If anyone was looking for a "logical" faith - I don't think Christianity has it. Deism or even some New Age notion of God probably make a lot more sense, especially if one were to espouse evolution as truth.

The atheists make some good points. They're misguided, but considering all they have is science, how can you blame them for reaching their conclusions? You can't.

So in order to be Christians we must reject science? This is an argument Creationists frequently use, wrongly assuming that God's creation somehow disproves God himself. And science isn't the trump card of atheism.

 

[er72]

Well obviously a computer can do much more than a calculator, which is more difficult to build?

God is a computer?

So in order to be Christians we must reject science? This is an argument Creationists frequently use, wrongly assuming that God's creation somehow disproves God himself. And science isn't the trump card of atheism.

In order to be a Christian, must one throw away their Bible and worship the god of science instead? What do you think?

Science has a great explanation for how the universe came about. But it is godless and has no place for those who claim to believe in the Christian God, sin, heaven, hell, Jesus, the Bible and so forth.

Believing in evolution is one's own choice. But to put anything above God is idolatry. Do you disagree on that too?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

In order to be a Christian, must one throw away their Bible and worship the god of science instead? What do you think?

Science has a great explanation for how the universe came about. But it is godless and has no place for those who claim to believe in the Christian God, sin, heaven, hell, Jesus, the Bible and so forth.

Believing in evolution is one's own choice. But to put anything above God is idolatry. Do you disagree on that too?

This isn't a black-and-white science vs. religion issue. Why should it be? Plenty of people happily accept both. We don't put religion above science above God, because while science discovers and makes sense of the world, the world is God's creation. It's not sensible to reject one in favour of the other.

 

[er72]

This isn't a black-and-white science vs. religion issue. Why should it be? Plenty of people happily accept both. We don't put religion above science above God, because while science discovers and makes sense of the world, the world is God's creation. It's not sensible to reject one in favour of the other.

You can happily accept anything you want.

If you want to believe in leprechauns, little green men on the moon, Atlantis and the dangers of the Illuminati, you are free to do so. I simply don't understand it.

Trying to merge atheism (evolution) with Christianity (NOT atheism!) is liking trying to mix oil and water. They don't go together. One completely undermines the other.

The very notion of saying "It's God's creation" implies Creation, NOT evolution. Evolution is a process without God. What is so difficult to grasp about that? You are merely inserting God into it, to try and synergize your faith with science. It irritates Christians, like myself, who believe in a true Creation, and it irritates atheists and non-Christians too, who do not believe in your God. You see the problem?