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Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

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repentant

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Keep judging my friend.

Visit a Orthodox Monastery one day my friend and see who is 100% obedient to God. See who denies themselves for Jesus. See who sold all they owned and took up there cross to follow Jesus. See who is crucified daily in body for His sake. See who prays without ceasing not only for themselves but for the entire world, including YOU. See who would give you the clothes of their back, and the food off their plate. Now tell me, do any Adventist's or Sabbath keeper's do this? Not you or even anyone on here, but anyone you can think of on the entire planet. Just name one Adventist that matches what I stated above.

And let me ask you. Do you wake up an hour early to say an hours worth of prayer before starting your day? Do you say an hours worth of prayer before sleep? Do you keep prayer in your mind when it is free and not thinking about something else? Do you fast, not only one time a year for a few days but all year, every year? Do you go to Church more than once a week? Do you read any book about Christianity you can get your hands on? Have you read the Bible at least 100 times front to back? Do you give whatever you can to EVERY homeless person you see?

The second paragraph I desribed is me. I am not one to brag or boast, but I am pretty much tired of you thinking you know people and are able to judge them. I am Orthodox. I already told you that we have services on Saturday. I already told you that I rest on the Sabbath and read books and also attend Church. Sometimes I do have to work, but working in a Hospital operating room sometimes you can't say no. I also do not think God will condemn me for caring for the sick. Like Jesus said it is ok to do good on the Sabbath.

You really need to stop judging....how can you be 100% obedient to God, and yet judge other's?
 
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tall73

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I wrote out a long reply that I later deleted.

But I will make three observations:

a. Judging the conscience of another is fruitless. So I agree with your post in general.

b. I see no problem with working on the Sabbath in a medical capacity, especially in emergency situations.

c. Your reaction to the judging of some has clouded the real issue on what could be a legitimate discussion. Does Scripture and history show that the original apostolic doctrine was to keep the Sabbath or not? And does the EO church actually teach this as well, as you state, or does it not?

That, baseline, is the issue. And it is one that I think you owe it to yourself to look into, regardless of the judging of some.

You have said that you rest and attend church on the Sabbath. But does that really line up with the historic teaching of your church? It seems that either your church is conflicted on the issue, or outright rejects Sabbath rest as an option, as you can note from my earlier post.

Therefore it seems strange to me that you make this claim when it doens't seem to be in line with the Orthodox faith to even do this. (Of course, I think it is commendable).

I wish we could get past the judging as well...on both sides actually...so that we could get to the real issue.

I am willing to concede that both parties are sincerely following God. Now let's discuss why we have different understandings of what that means.
 
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repentant

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Tall I must admit that you are probably one of the most civil people on here. I really don't like people to know what I do, but no one on here knows who I am, and I am just a name on a screen here.

But there has been judgement. If you look back a little when I first quoted wooba, he basically said about how we will answer to God on judgement day. That is judgement.

About the EOC and the Sabbath. The EOC does honor the Sabbath to a point, but not to the capacity that Adventist's do, or even Jews. Sunday is our big day in honor of the ressurection. But like I said there is Vesper services on Saturday which comes from the ancient days when the early Christians still honored the Sabbath. The view you hear on here (by other's) is not an Orthodox view, but their understanding of it. The early Church obsereved both, but with the main focus on Sunday. The Sabbath day was never changed per se, but Sunday is what we consider our Sabbath. People ask who had the permission to change the day. Well God never actually gave a day, so therefore it really doesn't matter. He only said work 6 days rest on the seventh. There is no emphasis that the 7th day was the last day of the week. Only His day of rest aftre working 6 days straight. Alot of it is also reading into things and reading between the lines of what the Bible says and means. The Sabbath in pre Christ times to the Jews was a literal day of rest. After Christ, the Sabbath or seventh day represents our eternal rest after working our salvation out in our life. In Hebrew's we read Paul say that there is a Sabbath yet to come. This is what that means.

The main concern I have for Adventist's is that they seem to worship a day more than God. In all reality, do you think God really cares what day you honor him? Would He prefer one Saturday over everyday? We also know that in the NT every commandment was reinterated again except the 4th commandment of the Sabbath. This should say something as well. Adventists claim that Jesus said numerous times to keep His commandments, which He did. But which ones? The ones HE gave when on earth. The young rich man asked Jesus what to do to obtain eternal life. What did Jesus tell Him? He told him to obey the commandments. Which one's the man asked. Jesus replied, "Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." The young man said that he has kept these since his youth, and what he lacked. So Jesus tell's him, "sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Notice what Jesus told him to do to inherit eternal life. He said to keep the commandments. When asked which ones, He gave the man specific one's. Notice how remembering the Sabbath was not one of them. So if it so important that it is the basis of an entire Christian sect, and all are damned who do not observe it, then why didn't Jesus mention it? And is it really that important anymore? Should all who work on Staurday be killed like God commanded as well? I would really like an answer to the last question.
 
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Cliff2

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You ask the question does God care about what day we honour Him.

I think God does care.

The reason is that if we look at thw whole of the Bible we do not see any support for making the first day as a day to honour God.

Without any support for that, how can we choose the 1st day of the week to honour God?

I am not going to argue about some of your observation in regards to the Sabbath and Adventists. As I am sure you are right in some of them.

The Sabbath must never be made an issue of salvation. If there are people out there that thinks that by keeping the Sabbath will make them sure of salvation. Then it is wrong.

That does not mean we should throw out the Sabbath.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments"
 
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Nightfire

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Christians didn't buckle under the pressure of persecution on any of their much harder and more persecuted beliefs - why on something as inoffensive as the sabbath? I think there's a much better explanation of what these leaders of the early church sought to put into words, than that they simply did it for the sake of being "anti-Jewish".

You mention The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, but it only confirms that Christians regarded the type of sabbath-keeping that distinguished "sabbath-keepers" (who were at that time probably the Jews and the "circumcision group" Paul mentions) from Christians, as a misapplication.

There's no doubt that if your conscience is condemned by not "keeping" the sabbath, then you should rectify it. But the same goes as for the giving of sacrifices:
This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.​
So do it for the sake of the Lord, not to prove to others that you are keeping the law. The ceremonial practice alone can't clear one's conscience before God, even if it makes you feel like you've done a little more to keep his commandments. "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind" (Rom. 14:5). As long as the net result shows your love for God and for your neighbour, you cannot go wrong (Gal. 5:22-23).

The spirit of the sabbath doesn't lie in it being an external regulation, dutifully kept, but in it being set apart ("holy") from the consequences of the fall - the labour and toil that became necessary to survive and bring forth life on earth (Gen. 3:16-19). It represents eternal life in paradise: God's work as opposed to man's work. So in the light of this, what does it mean, to "keep the sabbath"? Does it mean going to church on Saturday rather than Sunday? Here's something from before the time of Eusebius and Constantine, the Didache (dated 50-120AD):
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations." (14)​
This practice of coming together on the Lord's Day (i.e. Sunday) is therefore attested to by the earliest Christians, and must be the meetings Hebrews 10:25 was referring to, further evidenced by Acts 20:7. In fact, the last time a sabbath is mentioned being kept, is just after Jesus' burial (Luke 23:55). In the New Testament Jesus reinforces every commandment, explaining their significance, but of the sabbath law He deemed it necessary to say: "The Sabbath [meaning: the day] was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Significantly, one of the main accusations against Him was that He did not keep it. God meant it for rest and pleasure - to give us a patch of Eden every week, every year (and don't forget the year of Jubilee!) - not a day to break our heads against, about sin, of all things. What comes after Hosea 2:11? Christ! He restored the true meaning of the law by abolishing its perversions, thereby upholding God's righteousness, which means salvation, and condemning the formulaic kind of righteousness men boast about.

You said Barnabas spiritualized away any meaning of the Sabbath, but are you aware of the source of this spiritualization?
Heb. 4: (1-3) Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. Now we who have believed enter that rest...
(9-11) There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.​
The author was clearly not referring to any traditional Saturday rest. It wasn't something people looked forward to, it was something they fell over themselves to circumvent in creative ways, so as not to disturb the burden it had become through even more creative thinking.

From mechon-mamre: shabbat
The Torah does not prohibit "work" in the 20th century English sense of the word. The Torah prohibits "melachah", which is usually translated as "work", but does not mean precisely the same thing as the English word. Before you can begin to understand the Shabbat restrictions, you must understand the word "melachah". Melachah generally refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment. The quintessential example of melachah is the work of creating the universe, which God ceased from doing on the seventh day. Note that God's work did not require a great physical effort: he spoke, and it was done.​
It should be interesting to see how today's sabbath-keepers motivate their "keeping" the commandment in the Jewish tradition, without transgressing the traditional way that Moses established it. No gathering, cooking or baking (Ex. 16:22-30), no making fire (Ex. 35:1-3)... Either way, it's not simply an issue of "when". To make it out as such is to be ignorant of God's purpose with it - to forget that like all the other laws, it is a shadow of something. Of someone.
 
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Oblio

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The reason is that if we look at thw whole of the Bible we do not see any support for making the first day as a day to honour God.

Without any support for that, how can we choose the 1st day of the week to honour God?

The Resurrection perhaps
 
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Oblio

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Cliff2 said:
Even that day was not made holy by God.


My Bible and the Church that affirmed it to be the word of God says differently.

So then why should we keep a day that was not made holy by the holy God?

See above.
 
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tall73

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repentant said:
But there has been judgement. If you look back a little when I first quoted wooba, he basically said about how we will answer to God on judgement day. That is judgement.

I agree there has been. But I am glad the thread is back to factual discussion. It is challenging enough that way!


And this is the point that confuses me. If the Orthodox church holds to the original, apostolic doctrine, how can you have a time when Christians still honored the Sabbath, and then not have it?

It seems that somewhere what was original got lost.

If it was changed, then isn't that more in line with Catholic thinking of development of understanding?

The view you hear on here (by other's) is not an Orthodox view, but their understanding of it. The early Church obsereved both, but with the main focus on Sunday. The Sabbath day was never changed per se, but Sunday is what we consider our Sabbath.

a. They kept both eventually. There is evidence of Sabbath observance early on. The earliest evidence of Sunday observance was the Didache, as noted in your fellow's post. However, even that is dated variously, primarily on internal notions about development of doctrine itself, given the lack of hard dates.

Moreover, the term "Lord's Day" does not appear as such in the document. While the term Lord's eventually came to denote the Lord's day there is no reason to assume that here. The construction seems to favor more the notion of the Lord's way of doing things.

Even if you accept the reference as being to Sunday worship then that is still setting Sunday worship at some time after 70 AD, not originally. Meanwhile we have evidence of early Sabbath observance by the Christians who continued in the synagogues right on through from the time of Jesus.

b. Sunday is not, cannot be, the Sabbath. Either the Sabbath was done away with, or the Sabbath is still in place. Now you might say that it is a new rest day. But if that is the case then it was more because of the ECF than the original apostolic doctrine. We see no evidence of it being a rest day early one. It was a day of assembly and worship at least by the late first century, early second.

If Sunday was established by Jesus to replace the Sabbath then ceratainly

a. we would not have many keeping both for 400 years.

b. we would not have the myriad of rationales and practices that we see in the ECF period.


I will address the Hebrews portion in my next post, as it was mentioned by you and the other poster.

As to it being only one in seven, that is a stretch. You just got done saying that the early church kept both. The gospels note during the resurrection accounts when the 7th day was. This was never in fact in dispute. If the church knew it well enough to keep it for 400 years then the dating is not the issue. The issue is why it was later de-emphasized. Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath, and made no contention that any day in seven was fine. The days being numbered, the first, second etc. should be obvious from the fact that all references to Sunday are written as first day of the week. So when it says the seventh, it means just that. Just as the first day means that.

The main concern I have for Adventist's is that they seem to worship a day more than God. In all reality, do you think God really cares what day you honor him? Would He prefer one Saturday over everyday?

Some probably do worship the day more than God. I am not one of them.

Do I think He cares? If He didn’t He need not have set up the day in the first place, or recorded so much about it. The day points back to creation, forward to redemption, and is a time for us to spend with Him. If you alter the timing of the day you break part of the meaning of the day which commemorates creation.

Moreover, you have set up a false either/or statement. Does honoring Sunday mean that you don't care about God the rest of the week? No. Then I trust that you will see the same here. The Sabbath is a special appointment that we have to not go our own way but to find our joy in the Lord. The rest of the week is His too. But He asks that we give Him this day, for our benefit, and because it pleases Him.


a. .Jesus kept the commandment, cleansed it from the wrong conceptions of the Pharisees, called Himself Lord of the Sabbath and said it was made for man. How is it that He then did not speak of it? The sheer amount of material on the Sabbath in the gospels is staggering. In all cases Jesus never once said that He broke the command, but that they were condemning the innocent. He instead upheld it and showed that the Sabbath was a day to glorify God. He gave no hint whatsoever of it being done away with.

b. In the specific case of the rich young ruler the answer is pretty clear. The commandments intended were the 10 commandments. Just as when Paul says in Romans 7 “I would not have known what coveting meant if the law did not say do not covet.” The one was sufficient to point out which law.

In this case Jesus stressed the ones that applied to man’s obligation to man. That was apparently where the rich man struggled. He also struggled in following God in his own sufficiency.

It is a tired argument, but still a true one, that we assume you don’t think that worshiping idols etc. is fine. Therefore we have to conclude, since Jesus said He didn’t do it, that He did not remove the first four commandments, or consider them unimportant.


c. The early Christians met on the Sabbath, usually in the synagogue. The fact that it was not commanded in the epistles is hardly evidence that it was not in place. Afterall, we often hear about doctrines that are not explicitly in the Bible to start with being valid, such as teachings on Mary etc. The Sabbath certainly has more NT evidence than these, with Paul keeping it, Jesus keeping it, the church at Jerusalem keeping it, the Christians that Paul persecuted keeping it, etc.

The epistles, as our Orthodox/Catholic friends often remind us were written to address specific situations. If the churches were meeting on Sabbath, they were not an issue.

I pastor three churches. But I have probably preached a grand total of two sermons in each of those churches on the Sabbath in five years (with the exception of evangelistic meetings where the purpose is to cover a number of doctrines.)

The Sabbath is not a huge issue for most of my members.. So I preach on those things that are needful. If a person is struggling with Sabbath questions I meet with them individually.

d. Jesus expressly said He did not come to do away with the law and that they would not depart until heaven and earth passed away. That has not happened. The whole notion of a new creation ushered in by Sunday was in fact a justification of the fact that this DIDN’T happen. The only way to make Sunday a new Sabbath was to say that the heavens and earth passed away.

As pointed out Paul makes reference to the earth groaning under the weight of sin till that time. 2 Peter 3 references the destruction of the world by a flood and the present heavens and earth being destined for fire. The earth is still intact. And so is the law.

The law is written on the heart in the new covenant. You can’t have something that is gone written on the heart.


Should all who work on Staurday be killed like God commanded as well? I would really like an answer to the last question.

Given that we are not in a theocracy we leave any thought of judgement up to God. And this, like any other sin, is forgiven through repentance.
 
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tall73

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Nightfire said:
Christians didn't buckle under the pressure of persecution on any of their much harder and more persecuted beliefs - why on something as inoffensive as the sabbath?

a. the Sabbath was not inoffensive. It was made illegal after the destruction of the temple, taxation was enforced etc.

b. The Christians were at times persecuted along with the Jews. Initially they were regarded as a sect of Judaism. This was to their advantage so that they would not be advocating foreign gods. It was later not to their advantage when Jews became hated in the empire. The gentile Christians who had already instituted Sunday observance then began disparage Sabbath worship through fasting, through outright repudiation of it ,etc. Eventually it was abandoned.

I think there's a much better explanation of what these leaders of the early church sought to put into words, than that they simply did it for the sake of being "anti-Jewish".

Their concern was clearly not to be associated with the Jews. This is born out in several sources. This was to them a theological and practical issue, no doubt. But they wound up throwing out the Sabbath which was certainly original, apostolic and commanded by God.


We know of many Sabbath keepers at that time in the Christian faith. His statement was that the superstitions regarding not doing good on the Sabbath were ridiculous–the same thing that Christ said.


a. who said it was to clear my conscience? Can we at least agree that commandment keeping does not save anyone? This has been made abundantly clear.

b. The text in Romans is likely not dealing with Jewish issues. First of all the food requirements are not those of the Torah. Jews clearly ate meat. The days mentioned could be anything from fasting days etc.

Considering the huge amount of time Paul spent in dealing with circumcision I doubt that he would pass over a removal of the Sabbath with one passage such as this with no further answer. Espeically when we know Paul and the other Christians were keeping it.

The very fact that it did NOT come up in the judaizers' disputes show what the historical evidence already illustrates, that Sabbath was not an issue as they were keeping it.

But beyond that, do you apply this to Sunday also? Because the ECF who became more and more dogmatic on the issue don't seem to have.


a. it recalls the creation (before there was any fall or hard labor), the deliverance that God brought in Egypt, and the deliverance from sin in the future. However, it was made for man, and frankly, we still have labor, still have a need of remembering our salvation and our Creator. God made a special appointment for that. It is not legalism to keep that appointment IN ADDITION to the other time we give to Him.


See above on the Didache’s dating, content etc. as I covered it in my other post. 50 AD is far earlier than most place it.

This practice of coming together on the Lord's Day (i.e. Sunday) is therefore attested to by the earliest Christians, and must be the meetings Hebrews 10:25 was referring to, further evidenced by Acts 20:7.

A. The church met daily in the temple and home to home. There is no indication at all in Hebrews that Sunday is in view.

B. Acts 20 is the only reference to Sunday gathering of the Christians. As already noted they met everyday, so this proves little. Other dates were included in this segment of Acts so that the progress of Paul’s journey would be seen.

The service itself hardly speaks of the usual Sunday routine. The sermon must have started late, and went until after midnight. Paul was leaving the next day.

Depending on whether Luke was using Roman or Jewish Reckoning there are two possible scenarios here.

A. This was Saturday night, by Jewish reckoning, the early part of the first day. In this case the meeting seems to have started on Sabbath. It ended around day break. He then traveled. If in fact the Church were celebrating Sunday already, why would he travel on the new Sabbath?

B. This was Sunday night, using Roman reckoning. If so then the sermon started late, ended after midnight, Paul stayed on until daybreak and then left. They were simply seeing him off.

Either way it is a strange time for a regular Christian meeting, and gives no indication that it was the norm.


a. Indeed, it was meant for man. Which is why He did much good on the Sabbath. He restored it to the blessing it was. Now are you implying (as some have in these discussions, so please don’t take it as an offense) that Jesus violated the commands?

b. Paul’s custom was to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath. He went to a place of prayer when there was no synagogue. Paul looked for Christians in the synagogue when persecuting them. James mentions the Jewish church being zealous for the law. Do you think this means they were not keeping it?

John records in his gospel that even then (in Jesus time) people were put out of the synagogue for following Jesus. Obviously they were in his day too.

What comes after Hosea 2:11?

That would be the captivity.


The end of mirth was the punishment of Israel by all the lovers she had prostituted herself with.

Following this reference to the captivity God speaks of once again showing kindness to them, just as Hosea had to go take back his wife of adultery from far away.

Christ! He restored the true meaning of the law by abolishing its perversions, thereby upholding God's righteousness, which means salvation, and condemning the formulaic kind of righteousness men boast about.

a. Righteousness was always by faith. See Paul’s treatment of David and Abraham.

b. The people before the captivity were honoring God with their lips but not with their heart. Is that what we advocated? Again, Lordship is not legalism.


I will discuss Hebrews at length I the next post.

The approach of Barnabas is to make of no effect anything to do with the Jews, even before Jesus came.

The dating of this epistle is uncertain, and possibly covers a long range, again because it does not
make clear reference to events. It is certainly after the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70). But
most put it closer to AD 130 or so, based on the use of materials similar to those of the Didache.

The letter is generally very negative toward Judaism, favoring a later date when the relations
were poor. His use of Scripture is quite odd.

Here were a couple of the more unusual segments:



It is a stretch that Abraham understood circumcision to be a symbol of the initials of Jesus, and
therefore circumcized just the right number of people to spell out the initials of Jesus in ROMAN
Numerals.

This kind of spiritualization is the norm in the letter. Note also that he thought this to be a very novel idea. And indeed it was! As you read through the letter he seems to be presenting what he thinks will be new information to the reader concerning the real significance of the Jews.

Here is another example:



It again seems a stretch that God gave the dietary laws to show that people should not associate
with those who have oral sex and conception as he thinks that weasels do, or those who change
genders as he thinks that hyenas do. There is also no indication that David wrote Psalm 1 to
clarify the kind of people that the dietary laws were referring to.

His approach to Scripture leaves a lot to be desired.

Now here is his statement regarding the Sabbath. And while his reasoning is again rather unusual
it is important because it is the first statement in which the Sabbath is clearly seen as replaced
with Sunday. So by this time we are safe to say that some at least are making this argument.


First of all note that he, unlike some today, saw the Sabbath mentioned at creation, not just Sinai.


a. that meaning is not exactly evident.

b. Apparently he missed the memo on not knowing the hour of Jesus' coming. But he certainly was not alone on that error

c. Unless we are giving a lot of slack he has missed that prediction.


And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His
Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge
the ungodly, and change the sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He
truly rest on the seventh day.

Er...huh?

Again he takes the meaning of the creation narrative to mean something totally different than it did. Now he introduces the truth Sabbath as an end-time fulfillment.

Now this in itself is not out of line. The true rest will be in heaven. However, like most of his analysis, his point is to show that the Sabbath never had a literal application. Jesus obviously didn’t share this view. The Sabbath could hardly be for man if it was only an eschatological prediction.



Apparently he is now saying the 7th day is so holy that we can’t sanctify it until we are made holy. So it is so holy, we should disregard it.


a. he takes the statement out of context. God could not endure their hypocritical festivals that masked their evil actions.

b. he asserts that the resurrection of Jesus ushered in a new world, which as I already dealt with is not supported in Scripture. He then speaks of an 8th day. This eventually became a popular convention. The notion is here already presented that the new day is above the old as the 8th follows the 7th. But it is interesting that he gives no scriptural admonition to keep it.


So he already said that the seventh day will not occur until the second coming. He now
says that the 8th day...which follows the 7th...comes at Jesus first coming.

It is pretty plain that there was no Scripture with a plain meaning to the author. While he does provide a witness to the fact that Christians were keeping Sunday at this time, and some were elevating it above the Sabbath his rationale is near bizarre.

Moreover, the very fact that he was presenting all this about the Jews to those who were ignorant of all these facts (he continually speaks of how novel his ideas are) shows that they were not informed by Jesus originally on all these points. This confusion as to the nature of Sabbath, the rationale for Sunday etc. is further evidence that this was not original.


A. The keeping of Sabbath among Sabbath keepers might be an interesting topic. But if we strive to keep the example of Jesus that hardly seems to be a bad thing.

B. Nor is it simply an issue of when. The focus on the “when” rather than the meaning of the Sabbath is simply forced by those who knew well the when, but got rid of the whole thing.

The question is simple. If Jesus and the apostles kept it, and even the church itself in most places for 400 years, excepting at first Rome and later Alexandria, then

a. Why was it abandoned?

b. How can it be anything but original and apostolic?

What changed after 400 years that made you abandon what Jesus left his apostles doing?
 
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tall73

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I drew this up during an earlier Sabbath discussion.


Here is my take on Hebrews 4. To get to the meaning I have made a review of the general content of each chapter so as to outline the themes. The overall theme is simply that Jesus is superior to their previous understanding in every way. They should not fall away from the faith entrusted to them even during persecution. Rather they are to cling to Jesus. The author touches on the key figures in the Jewish mind, Moses, Abraham, angels, Aaron, etc. and Jesus is superior to them all. To fall away from Him would be worse than to fall away from the first covenant.

The meaning of chapter 4 should be in line with this overall theme.

A. The overall book.
Chapter 1:
Jesus is superior to angels. They are ministering spirits, He is the Son.

Chapter 2:
A warning against falling away from the message they had heard

Jesus made like unto his bretehren. He is able to help them when tempted (to fall away)

Chapter 3:
Jesus was better than Moses. Moses was faithful in all of God's house. But Jesus was the Son, to whom all the house belongs. We are the house.

Another warning against falling away. If today you hear his voice do not harden your hearts. Their possible rebellion against God's will is compared with the people in the exodus, who at first left Egypt but were later punished for unbelief.

They are to encourage each other daily to avoid hardening by sin.

Chapter 4: - to be examined further below

Chapter 5:
A priest must be called

Jesus a High priest in the order of Melchizedek, the source of eternal salvation for all who believe

The Hebrew believers are not able to comprehend, because they are still spiritual infants, though they ought by now to be teachers. They have not spiritually matured. They need basics rather than the teaching about righteousness.

Chapter 6:
A call to not fall away. The strongest yet. It will be impossible for those enlightened ones who have drunk of the Spirit, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance. They will have crucified Jesus again by denying Him publicly.

An illustration is given of a worthless plot of land that takes in rain but never produces. This is a picture of the recipients, who have received blessings from God but have not grown, and are in danger of falling away. But better things are hoped for in their case. They should continue to the end.


Abraham was patient and received what was promised God swore by Himself with an oath. They too have assurance from God.

Chapter 7:
Return to the High priest theme. Melchizedek received tithe from Abraham, had no geneology (was without beginning and end), was called the king of righteousness, and the king of peace and remains a priest forever. He did not descend from Levi. Levi figuratively paid the tithe through Abraham. He was greater than Abraham as the lesser is blessed by the greater.

The levitical preisthood did not bring perfection. Jesus was not of the line of Aaron but of the line of Melchizedek. He was both King and Priest. The Lord made Him a priest forever, not on the basis of lineage, but His indestructible life. He does not offer sacrifices over and over for His own sin and others, but one sacrifice for all time, Himself.

Chapter 8:
Jesus is the High Priest of the true tabernacle in heaven, of which the earthly was a copy.

Jesus' ministry is superior to that of the other priesthood, and his covenant is better.

The old covenant was based on bad promises because the people did not keep them. God therefore made a new covenant. The law was written on the heart and mind, and God forgave their sins, and made them His people. It was not dependent on their promises.

Chapter 9:
A review of the worship in the earthly temple, including a brief layout of the grounds. Particularly the Day of Atonement service is treated. Only the high priest went into the most holy place, once a year. Jesus went through the real tabernacle as high priest. He cleanses us with better sacrifices than cleansed the earthly temple.

Jesus is in charge of a better covenant. Just as blood was necessary for a will, Jesus' death and blood initiated the new covenant.

Jesus died once to take away sin and will return again not as a sacrifice but to bring salvation.

Chapter 10:
Sacrifices are not the reality, they are an annual reminder of sin. Jesus' once for all sacrifice provided salvation and the new covenant.

A call to persevere in light of our great High Priest and the salvation He brought. They are not to forsake meeting together.

Those who continually sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth have no sacrifice for sin left.

He calls to mind the early days of the faith of the recipients when they were persecuted, lost possessions etc. They should not shrink back and be destroyed, but endure and receive what is promised.

Chapter 11:
Heros of the faith are outlined, all of which endured by faith. They did not receive what was promised, but now it is revealed in their time.

Chapter 12:
We are to follow Jesus who ran the race before us, and endured persecution.

Hardships are discipline from the Lord of His sons.

Instruction on holy living.

They are not come to the mountain of fire, trembling in fear, but to Mount Zion, the new Jerusalem, the city of God, to joyful assembly. They should not refuse God, as those who refused on earth did not escape.

Chapter 13:
Closing reminders and calls to obey leaders, holy living, reminders of Jesus' sacrifice etc.

B.
The context of chapter 4.

Chapter 3 begins the thought that is continued in chapter 4. So a closer look is warranted.


As Moses was seen as the law giver and friend of God the author wanted to make plain that Jesus is superior to him as well. Moses was a servant of God, Jesus is the Son, over all the house.


Here a scene is reviewed from the experience of Moses, through the vehicle of Psalm 95. The exodus experience is in view when the tribes failed to go up and take the promised land. The whole generation died in the wilderness, even though they had left originally in faith. In the same way the ones who were now in danger of falling away had taken their stand for Jesus but now were in danger of falling away.



It is those who disobey who are in view. Again, an encouragement to the recipients not to emulate them.

C. Chapter 4

The promise still stands today to enter God's rest. In context, this would be belief and the reward it brings. They are to enter by faith, staying firm to the end, which is where the earlier fell short.


God is seen as resting from the beginning of creation. He waits for people to enter that rest.


Joshua led the people to the promised land. But the psalm still said there was a rest to enter. So therefore the rest was not fulfilled just by entering the promised land. It is the promise of salvation. Salvation is ultimately entering into God's rest which He has been in since creation. It is ceasing from our own works, and living by faith–the opposite of what those who doubted and died did.

The invitation is open to them today. It is the day of decision. But if they fall back they will suffer the same fate as those who fell in the wilderness.


Those who are in danger of falling away should remember the example of those who fell in the desert. Nothing is hidden from God.



Jesus is able to help, being tempted as we are. They need not fall away.

D. Sabbath implications.

This text is neither a support for weekly Sabbath observance, or a text which does away with it. It is a call to not fall away as did the people in Moses' time. Their mistake was to not act in faith. It is the purpose of the letter to encourage the Hebrew Christians not to do the same, but to endure in faith.

The Sabbath rest mentioned is not the weekly Sabbath experience, but the lasting rest that God entered into and has remained in since. (This is clearly figurative as God is said to be at work every day by Jesus). In a sense it is the rest that the Sabbath looks forward to. That Jesus kept the literal rest, and said it was for man’s benefit should demonstrate that the eschatological fulfillment of the Sabbath does not do away with the literal observance. The salvation here is available now, but fully realized in heaven. Therefore the typology is not fulfilled yet , nor is the need for earthly rest removed at this time.

The recipients have the opportunity to enter the rest of salvation in Jesus through faith. But if they turn back they will be like those who fell in the desert.

The term Sabbatismos, while at other times referring to the weekly Sabbath is here simply referring to the rest which that Sabbath points to. The Sabbath is a foretaste of that permanent rest that God is calling us to.
 
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TexasSky

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I'm not going to read through 50 pages of posts to see if this has been stated, but please understand that the word "Sabbath" comes from the Hebrew word "sabbat" and that means "cease, rest."

The bible states to work six days and rest on the 7th day. It never says that this is the same day for every man, woman and child in the world.

People have different definitions of work.

People have different definitions of rest.

People have different time zones that can result in different dates.

Some HUMAN decided that the "7th" day was a Saturday and having decided that, declared it to be the day of rest.

Just as someone else decided they were going to call Sunday my "first" day instead of my "7th" day.

I think both of these humans were wrong.

Obviously God counted the first day you worked as day one, and said you can work six days.

In my case, that makes Sunday my day of rest, and Monday my "first" day.
 
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Cliff2

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Your reasoning lacks one thing, it is not Biblical.

The Bible says God rested on the 7th day and made it holy.

If we are going to disregard that commandment then why worry about the rest of the commandments.
 
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tall73

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It has been mentioned. It is partly addressed in this post, and others:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22883799&postcount=490
 
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repentant

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If He does care, why didn't Jesus mention it to the rich man or anyone else? There is also no support that the seventh day was actually the last day of the week either. There is no mention at all in the NT of keeping the Sabbath, but there is mention of the Apostles gathering to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday.
 
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repentant

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I am only going to say one thing to this reply because anything else would be repeating myself. You claimed there is no evidence of Sunday worship prior to 70 AD, but what you seem too miss is that Scripture tells of the Apostles gathering to celebrate the Eucharist. If you would like me to prove it, I will.
 
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tall73

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Yes ,that would be helpful. But then again we have records of the eucharist being done every day at times, and the church in Jerusalem broke breat every day and from house to house. This could be meals, or the Lord's supper, but either way, doesn't prove the point of Sunday worship.
 
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repentant

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You are right, but that just validates that everyday should be to the Lord, not just one...


But for Sunday worship, we know the Apostles gathered to break bread on the first day of the week..

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.


Now some claimed as you did that breaking bread could mean they ate. But if you look at the entire Scripture, you will see that it means the Eucharist, the fundemental part of Christian worship...

Here Paul tell's us what breaking bread means..

1 Corinthians 10:15-17
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.


Here Paul tell's them that the "bread which we break" is the Body of Christ. Clearly "breaking bread" means the Eucharist.

Matthew 26:26
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.


Now here in the Gospel of Matthew (also Mark and Luke say the same thing) the Holy Apostle Matthew, the Gospel's writer states that Jesus "broke" the bread when He instituted the Eucharist. Clearly by these examples "breaking of bread" is the Eucharist, which is the main focus of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

Now the Greek also backs this up..

Matthew uses the word eklasen which is a form of the word klaw.

1 Corinthians uses the word klwmen which is also a form of the word klaw.

Acts uses the word klasai which is also a form of the word klaw. Again which means to break..

This is the problem with interpreting Scripture ones self. It has already been done over 1600 years ago by divinely inspired men. This is why there are over 25000 Protestants denominations and only ONE Orthodox Church...
 
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