Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

woobadooba · Mar 20, 2006

Oblio said:
Of course you have no proof of this.

The proof is clearly spelled out in the Bible. But you choose not to see it.

By the way, is this what you will say to God when He brings you into judgement for disobeying His command?

Asinner · Mar 20, 2006

woobadooba said:
By the way, is this what you will say to God when He brings you into judgement for disobeying His command?

Prayerfully, Oblio will have the prayers of the saints and his spiritual father to get him through . . .

God Bless

ThreeAM · Mar 20, 2006

Oblio said:
Your premise is false

The Resurrection redeems that fallen world, the creation of which is commemorated on the Sabbath, a shadow of Great and Holy Saturday.

The Mystical Eighth day of the new Creation surpasses the OT Sabbath, overshadowing it. To exhalt the Sabbath over the Resurrection is to exhalt the fallen world over the Kingdom of God redeemed by Christ on the third day, it is to make a mockery of Christ and His defeat of death by death.

A few verses to prove these bold statements would be nice.

repentant · Mar 20, 2006

tall73 said:
I agree, which is why I pointed out that I have no problem with Sunday worship. The problem is not Sunday worship, the problem is neglect of a command of God. And for me it is not a judgment issue. I just like to talk out various teachings to learn, and to have others learn. And I have learned a number of things about no only the Sabbath but ECF, councils, biblical translation, hermeneutics of various churches, and many more topics in my short stay in GT.

A. not true, though mostly true. I have seen some started by others.

B. Everyone starts threads on their favorite or "strong" topics. It is the nature of GT. I have seen a number of
"Mary is the ark of the New Covenant" threads, all started by Catholics.

Or "Apostolic Succession" usually started by those churches who claim it.

The point is that everyone has issues that are important to them and they want to get them out there

Now I personally think that it is good to post on a number of threads. But not everyone does. Some may not feel qualified to speak on a number of issues.

Most Adventists or Sabbath keepers do not start them to condemn non-Sabbath keepers. They do it to warn the world about what they think is a major end-time issue, or because they simply want to please God by doing what He asked.

I do think that some feel condemned. And like any group we do have some who are less than diplomatic. But honestly, I feel condemned sometimes if other groups point out something I am not doing--and with good reason! Should I feel bad because I am condemned, or should I examine it to see if it is legitimate? If it is not, then I don't feel condemned. If it is, then it is conviction, and I should address it. And I have found this at times. For instance, the Orthodox have a great emphasis on spiritual disciplines such as fasting. Adventists do fast, but we do not stress it as much. In fact, many Adventists probably never fast. Now as a pastor, if I have not presented the purpose of fasting enough, should I feel bad? Yes. I should! So it is a reminder. Now are you condemning me by speaking of fasting? No. But I might condemn myself if I don't pursue it enough. I am under conviction, which is a good thing if it leads to repentance and leaves no regret, as Paul said. So it is a good reminder.

In the same way some people may not even be aware of the Sabbath command, or have heard of it but never looked into it. Is it wrong to present this? They lose nothing by investigating it. And some have in fact come to keep the Sabbath.

You mentioned the Orthodox practice. Yes, I am aware of the Sabbath services of the Orthodox. In fact in nearly every Sabbath thread we are reminded of it. And yet I find that in nearly every Sabbath thread the Orthodox are the most willing to oppose any Sabbath teaching. Why? If you are keeping it then why feel self-condemned?

Now that does not mean you cannot comment. Feel free. But if you say all these things were made to condemn, I don't think it is true. And if you feel condemned, you might ask yourself why.

I have no problem with someone who rests on Sabbath, spending time in reflection, and then worships on Sunday. I know of a number of ministers and lay peopl who started doing this from their own study, still maintaining Sunday worship, but adding Sabbath observance. I think it is great. There is nothing wrong with giving God more time.

But there are those who by their theological statements (The Catholic Church being the most prominent) who have taken the stand that Sabbath WAS replaced with Sunday, and that the moral force of the Sabbath commandment applies to Sunday. The Pope John Paull II's letter on the subject made that very clear, as have other documents. And since that is the case, it is something that some people should realize that the two are different days, have different purposes, and should not be conflated.

So if we argue along those lines, does it effect you? I don't see how it would.

Not all do. And it is really not unique to these threads. The Sola Scriptura threads, Mary threads, tongues threads, etc. all can take that tone , from any side.

We too are condemned often as legalists or Judaizers, etc. It is frequently pointed out that we have many heretical beliefs. We are told (like everyone else) that if we are not part of certain churches we are lost. It is just the way things go in this forum. But the challenge is to individually rise above that and look at issues objectively. That is not easy to do.

In a sense I am I enjoy learning about Orthodoxy, and other faiths. There are always some points that you stress that we don't. And that is good to note.

Honestly, if I found that to be the case for me I would. But so far I find more about your church that I cannot agree with than I do the Adventists. And while you might not appreciate me putting it quite this way, I don't think that you have the original orthodox faith. I think that the Greek fathers often times departed from the original faith as they distanced themselves from Judaism, throwing out more than needed to be.

Moreover, I find that individuals of your faith (who may not always be an accurate representation, I realize this), often will say something is apostolic only if the church fathers say it, even if it seems to go against the apostles themselves.

But I hope to get some books on the issue by a former Adventist that has been mentioned. Then I will be getting an approach that can relate to the Adventist mind-set.

And my disagreements with Adventists are usually about non-essentials. And at times just the way they present things. But I don't find it all that troubling that I don't agree in every respect. I dont' see the apostles, or the ECF etc. agreeing in every respect either on "disputable matters", so why stress it?

First. Every Sabbath thread that I have seen lately was started by someone condeming Sunday Worship, or assuming no one observes Saturday. And I have seen more Mary or Apostolic Succesion threads started by who are asking about it than by people who claim it.

You can think what you want about the "Greek Father's", but if it wasn't for these Father's who you claim distanced themselves from the "True Faith" as you say, you wouldn't have a Bible, nor probably even know who Jesus was. If you look at historical Church documents, the only Church that matches it, is the Orthodox Church. Not to mention all 7 Ecumenical Councils. I would like you to name one thing in the Orthodox Faith, that is neither Apostolic or against Scripture as you claim.

And basically the arguements you here from Orthodox people on this issue, is validating Sunday Worship, not condemning Saturday.

And I agree not many of other faiths know about the Sabbath, but if they would have remained with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church they wouldn't have this problem..

repentant · Mar 20, 2006

woobadooba said:
The proof is clearly spelled out in the Bible. But you choose not to see it.

By the way, is this what you will say to God when He brings you into judgement for disobeying His command?

This is to all the Sabbithizers and not only woobadooba. You really need to get the plank out of your eye before you point out the splinter in another's eye. You notice how no one on the Sunday worship side has condemned anyone or asked them how they will answer to God for anything. But the Sabbathizers continue and continue to judge and condemn other's? I believe this speaks volumes of the other's on here, (who have mostly been Orthodox) and speaks another way about the Adventist's. Haven't you heard the saying..."Judge not, lest ye be judged"..?

I suggest to the other's, let the Sabbathizer's go on there way. Not that we are wrong or need to back down, but for their sake. The more we continue the more they condemn and judge, and maybe we should pray for them instead of contributing to the sins of other's....

God Bless.

jochanaan · Mar 20, 2006

repentant said:
This is to all the Sabbithizers and not only woobadooba. You really need to get the plank out of your eye before you point out the splinter in another's eye. You notice how no one on the Sunday worship side has condemned anyone or asked them how they will answer to God for anything. But the Sabbathizers continue and continue to judge and condemn other's?...

Have I once condemned you? I didn't think I had; but if so, I sincerely apologize.

woobadooba · Mar 20, 2006

Asinner said:
Prayerfully, Oblio will have the prayers of the saints and his spiritual father to get him through . . .

God Bless

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matt. 7:21

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done." Rev. 20:13

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." Jn. 14:15

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." Ex. 20:8

woobadooba · Mar 20, 2006

repentant said:
This is to all the Sabbithizers and not only woobadooba. You really need to get the plank out of your eye before you point out the splinter in another's eye. You notice how no one on the Sunday worship side has condemned anyone or asked them how they will answer to God for anything. But the Sabbathizers continue and continue to judge and condemn other's? I believe this speaks volumes of the other's on here, (who have mostly been Orthodox) and speaks another way about the Adventist's. Haven't you heard the saying..."Judge not, lest ye be judged"..?

I suggest to the other's, let the Sabbathizer's go on there way. Not that we are wrong or need to back down, but for their sake. The more we continue the more they condemn and judge, and maybe we should pray for them instead of contributing to the sins of other's....

God Bless.

It certainly does speak volumes! One side obviously doesn't care about giving God 100% of their obedience, and the other side does!

And we may not always give 100% of our obedience to God, but at least we make an earnest effort! At least we aren't trying to make up all kinds of excuses to justify breaking His commandment!

tall73 · Mar 21, 2006

repentant said:
First. Every Sabbath thread that I have seen lately was started by someone condeming Sunday Worship, or assuming no one observes Saturday. And I have seen more Mary or Apostolic Succesion threads started by who are asking about it than by people who claim it.

But not all of either were.

And we could certainly use other posts, but I think you know of the type I speak of.

You can think what you want about the "Greek Father's", but if it wasn't for these Father's who you claim distanced themselves from the "True Faith" as you say, you wouldn't have a Bible, nor probably even know who Jesus was. If you look at historical Church documents, the only Church that matches it, is the Orthodox Church. Not to mention all 7 Ecumenical Councils. I would like you to name one thing in the Orthodox Faith, that is neither Apostolic or against Scripture as you claim.

Did I ever say that the Greek fathers did not provide a valuable service? But they also made changes. Since you are asking for one thing, we might as well keep the thread on topic. The fathers do not in fact uphold Sabbath keeping as a rule. Some do, some don't. You can claim that the Orthodox church does, but you would have to ignore the comments by Justin Martyr, John Chrysostom, the Epistle of Barnabas etc. that condemn Sabbath keeping.

Here are just a few, since I am on vacation and don't have access to all my listings from the original texts online with links. But they demonstrat the point.

Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 1, Chapter 5 (c. 315 A.D.)
"For as the name Christians is intended to indicate this very idea, that a man, by the knowledge and doctrine of Christ, is distinguished by modesty and justice, by patience and a virtuous fortitude, and by a profession of piety towards the one and only true and supreme God; all this no less studiously cultivated by them than by us. They did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, neither do we; neither do we abstain from certain foods, nor regard other injunctions, which Moses subsequently delivered to be observed in types and symbols, because such things as these do not belong to Christians." (13)

Epistle of Barnabas 15:8-9 (c. 130 A.D.)
"Finally, He says to them: 'I cannot bear your new moons and sabbaths.' You see what He means: it is not the present sabbaths that are acceptable to Me, but the one that I have made; on that Sabbath, after I have set everything at rest, I will create the beginning of an eighth day, which is the beginning of another world. This is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven." (11)

(Barnabas spiritualizes the Sabbath to be only a last day fulfillment, which we are not now holy enough to attain. He also spiritualizes away almost any meaning for any of the Jewish promises or covenants, asserting that the covenant was lost right after it was given at Sinai).

Justin Martyr's DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO Chapter X
Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed, than this, that we live not after the law, and are not circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers were, and do not observe sabbaths as you do?

Athanasius On Sabbath and Circumcision
The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation.

Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures 4:37

Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling indifferent meats common or unclean

Since you mentioned councils:

Council of Laodicea:
Christians should not Judaize and should not be idle on the Sabbath, but should work on that day; they should, however, particularly reverence the Lord's Day and, if possible, not work on it, because they were Christians.

Of course, these themselves disagree with the apostolic constitutions, with The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, with the practice of the Nazarenes, the Coptics, and even the vast majority of christians through the 4th century according to Socrates Scholasticus and Sozomon's histories.

So the evidence is mixed with the church fathers. But if you truly say you follow the councils, then I would say Maximus and such who have posted that the Sabbath is annulled would have the more consistent view. The council forbade you to rest on that day. So if you are saying you do, you might want to give more heed to what the councils say.

Or you could take my view that they changed the original practice over time due to anti-Jewish sentiment following the destruction of the temple, and especially the persecution under Hadrian, etc.

And basically the arguements you here from Orthodox people on this issue, is validating Sunday Worship, not condemning Saturday.

Perhaps you should read through more of them then. Montalban, Maximus, etc. have written at length, taking a position against the Sabbath having any meaning. In fact, as I noted above, they are more consistent in doing so if you truly accept the councils.

And I agree not many of other faiths know about the Sabbath, but if they would have remained with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church they wouldn't have this problem..

Would they? Not if they accept the councils and at least some of the church fathers, who disagree with other fathers, and at times themselves.

tall73 · Mar 21, 2006

repentant said:
This is to all the Sabbithizers and not only woobadooba. You really need to get the plank out of your eye before you point out the splinter in another's eye. You notice how no one on the Sunday worship side has condemned anyone or asked them how they will answer to God for anything. But the Sabbathizers continue and continue to judge and condemn other's? I believe this speaks volumes of the other's on here, (who have mostly been Orthodox) and speaks another way about the Adventist's. Haven't you heard the saying..."Judge not, lest ye be judged"..?

Perhaps you should list those you see doing it. I have not said I condemn you. I have been called unorthodox, heretical, etc. Is that not condemning?

I suggest to the other's, let the Sabbathizer's go on there way. Not that we are wrong or need to back down, but for their sake. The more we continue the more they condemn and judge, and maybe we should pray for them instead of contributing to the sins of other's....

Or maybe you could face what your councils really say and be consistent as Maximus is. Your traditions do not say that you are to rest. So either accept them or don't.

And perhaps if you are going to move on, you might first present actual evidence of our error. To say that all of us condemned you is not true at all. And to back out because some do is not a legitimate reason. Pray for me if you will, but I would like for those who call my views heretical to show that they are.

You are, on the other hand, trying to have it both ways. You claim to accept the orthodox faith, but then say you keep the Sabbath. The orthodox faith is either conflicted (the fathers certainly are), or you are not accurately representing their view.

I am not saying this to be hard, or to condemn. And I certainly never have seen our Seventh-day Baptist friend condemn anyone. This is an area for discussion. If you don't want to discuss, you certainly don't have to. But don't characterize me as condemning merely for posting on one side of the argument.

Yusuf Evans · Mar 21, 2006

KalEl76 said:
Here are two reasons why keeping the Sabbath isn't as important a commandment as the other 9:

1) Some people simply can't go to church on "Sunday". Why is that? Sometimes, they are bedridden or sometimes they have to work to support their families or their schedule demands work on that day. Others, like myself, who are in the U.S. military are unable to gurantee that we will be able to attend church every week due to job constraints and a war that is going on right now.

2) Which commandment did Christ say was important, keeping the Sabbath? Nope. Worship the Lord your God, and also to Love your neighbor.

BUMP*

ScottBot · Mar 21, 2006

Zoomer said:
I think he is making a case of how "bad" those of us are who do not celebrate the Saturday Sabbath.

Bingo. The big bad Catholic Church (and Orthodox by power of association back in the day) had the audacity to change the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, further proving that it is the harlot of Babylon and anyone who follows this "tradition of men" is one of her harlots. Repent!! All of you and get with the "Saturday is the Sabbath" program!

Cliff2 · Mar 21, 2006

woobadooba said:
The proof is clearly spelled out in the Bible. But you choose not to see it.

By the way, is this what you will say to God when He brings you into judgement for disobeying His command?

Excellent post, in the judgement what are people going to say?

Too busy, work would not allow me to keep the 7th day Sabbath.....the list just keeps going on.

Oblio · Mar 21, 2006

And we may not always give 100% of our obedience to God, but at least we make an earnest effort! At least we aren't trying to make up all kinds of excuses to justify breaking His commandment!

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Luke 18:10-14 KJVA)

ThreeAM · Mar 21, 2006

KalEl76 said:
Here are two reasons why keeping the Sabbath isn't as important a commandment as the other 9:

1) Some people simply can't go to church on "Sunday". Why is that? Sometimes, they are bedridden or sometimes they have to work to support their families or their schedule demands work on that day. Others, like myself, who are in the U.S. military are unable to gurantee that we will be able to attend church every week due to job constraints and a war that is going on right now.

1. So we are to put our families before God? Where is your faith that God will provide? My father was almost fired one time for refusing to work on the Sabbath at a company he had worked at for over twenty years. More than 20 men in his crew volunteered to swap days with him but the supervisor wasn't going to let it happen. Men swaped days all the time. My father frequently worked on Sunday so another man a partime preacher could preach on sunday. My dad worked sundays for others also. Dad never worked on Saturday no matter how much overtime money was offered. The supervisor going against company policy was trying to persecute dad by not allowing anyone to switch with dad. Anyway Dad's 20+ co-workers went over the superviors head and the supervisor was moved and my dad continued not working on the sabbath. Sometimes it takes alot of faith to stand up for your religious principles. No one ever said obeying God is easy as matter fact.

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also

KalEl76 said:
2) Which commandment did Christ say was important, keeping the Sabbath? Nope. Worship the Lord your God, and also to Love your neighbor.

2. Yes these are the two principles on which ALL of the Ten Commandments hang . The first 4 commandments tell how we should worship and respect God our Creator. The last 6 tell us how we should love and respect our fellow man. The 4th commandment tells us how God wants to be worshiped.

jochanaan · Mar 21, 2006

Oblio said:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Luke 18:10-14 KJVA)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil....Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven....these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 5:17,19;23:23 KJV)
Let me say once again, I do NOT--repeat, I DO NOT--keep the Sabbath to save myself, nor to set myself up above the Church authorities. I keep it in loving response to the God Who has already saved me by His Son's death and resurrection. My Sabbathkeeping is a result of my salvation, not a prerequisite for it. Nor do I set up rules for anybody but myself regarding how to keep the Sabbath. Where then is the legalism? Where is the condemnation?

stone · Mar 21, 2006

Genesis 2:3

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

woobadooba · Mar 21, 2006

Oblio said:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Luke 18:10-14 KJVA)

Click to expand...

Oblio, you really have a bad habit of taking scripture out of context. And this is obviously why you are having trouble hearing the voice of Truth on this issue.

Until you learn to see things for what they really are, rather than to impose your thoughts on them in an attempt to make them say only what you want to hear, you will continue to live by a system that tells you everything is alright, when the ideas that
it promotes are desperately wrong.

One day you will look back and see that God was speaking here. You will see that you just wouldn't listen. Hopefully it won't be too late when this happens.

woobadooba · Mar 21, 2006

Scott_LaFrance said:
Bingo. The big bad Catholic Church (and Orthodox by power of association back in the day) had the audacity to change the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, further proving that it is the harlot of Babylon and anyone who follows this "tradition of men" is one of her harlots. Repent!! All of you and get with the "Saturday is the Sabbath" program!

I think it is important to understand that there is a difference between condemnation and a warning.

What you and the others who oppose the Sabbath commandment have been given here is a warning. That's it.

And if you want to assume that we are belittling you and condemning you because you have been condemning us (how ironic is that!) then that is not our problem, but one which you will face in the day of judgment when God asks you why you did not heed His warning.

I just hope that before that happens, you will wake up and realize that God is particular about how we worship Him. We don't make up the rules. He does. And if we don't follow the rules, no excuse in the world will save us from His wrath in the day of Judgment.

jochanaan · Mar 21, 2006

Careful, Woobadooba. We don't know his heart. I for one am convinced from his posts that Oblio has a deep love for Jesus. I'm just trying to show him that Sabbathkeeping is another aspect of loving the Lord by obeying His commands. Have you not seen how carefully I avoid any words that might even be interpreted as a condemnation?

Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath?

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