Why won’t creationists participate in open and honest debate?

[BeamMeUpScotty]

Yes.



Which fits in easily.



He was 2500 years before Moses.



Yes --- here's how it goes:

• Moses edited Genesis.
• And authored Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
• Joshua wrote his epitaph.

Study what colophons are --- they'll help you understand.

So, who wrote Genesis? And how do you know?

 

[AV1611VET]

Really. Prophecies so vague can be fulfilled by any number of criteria, and it's not exactly uncontested there was a virgin birth.

That "vague prophecy" as you call it is packed with information --- study what the Protevangelium is.

 

[BeamMeUpScotty]

Yes.



Which fits in easily.



He was 2500 years before Moses.



Yes --- here's how it goes:

• Moses edited Genesis.
• And authored Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
• Joshua wrote his epitaph.

Study what colophons are --- they'll help you understand.

P.S. Where does it say Joshua "wrote his epitaph"? I think your Bible must have many more verses than mine.

 

[Dragar]

That "vague prophecy" as you call it is packed with information --- study what the Protevangelium is.

Only because you are reading it in hindsight. Any prophecy so vaguely worded could be read in hindsight and found to be 'packed' with information.

It's a tactic common to many prophecies, including horoscopes, fortune tellers, etc.

 

[AV1611VET]

So, who wrote Genesis? And how do you know?

• Adam wrote Genesis 1-3.
• Seth wrote Genesis 3-5.
• Noah wrote Genesis 6-9.
• Genesis 10 & 11 I can't remember right now.
• Abraham wrote Genesis 12-25.
• etc.

It's a theory based on colophons (genealogies) --- and a very plausible one at that.

 

[AV1611VET]

P.S. Where does it say Joshua "wrote his epitaph"? I think your Bible must have many more verses than mine.

Who would you say wrote it, Scotty? Here's what you have to go on:

• A short epitaph at the end of Deuteronomy.
• Followed by an entire book consisting of 24 chapters.

Wouldn't you say Joshua is the most likely candidate?

 

[AV1611VET]

Only because you are reading it in hindsight. Any prophecy so vaguely worded could be read in hindsight and found to be 'packed' with information.

It's a tactic common to many prophecies, including horoscopes, fortune tellers, etc.

But horoscopes and fortune tellers don't have a 100% success rate. Nor do they ever say something like:

• If I ever miss --- even once --- I'm a charlatan.

Some of these prophecies, you're right, weren't recalled until after the fact:

• [bible]John 12:16[/bible]
• [bible]Acts 11:16[/bible]

 

[Wiccan_Child]

AV1611VET, please provide a list of all the things prophisised in the Bible, and show how the fulfilled ones have been just that: fulfilled.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV1611VET, please provide a list of all the things prophisised in the Bible, and show how the fulfilled ones have been just that: fulfilled.

Right --- don't hold your breath.

Just Jesus alone has 333 prophecies concerning Himself, of which 119 have been fulfilled --- leaving 224 still to go.

(Or maybe the numbers are the other way around --- 224/109.)

Either way you get my drift, right?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Right --- don't hold your breath.

Just Jesus alone has 333 prophecies concerning Himself, of which 119 have been fulfilled --- leaving 224 still to go.

(Or maybe the numbers are the other way around --- 224/109.)

Either way you get my drift, right?

Yes. You are too lazy to post even one. Once again, a Christians claims have turned up false.

 

[TheCommonPatriot]

Yes, you would expect that, if the Bible's creation account were literal. The evidence says otherwise, at basically every level.

Yet, when we discuss the lack of actual proof for the transition from one species to another, the absence of transitional members in the fossil record seems to be no impediment to those who believe in the TofE.

There is no geological evidence of a flood...

While it may be anecdotal to begin with you can hardly say there is "NO" evidence. For just one example I would inquire as to the discovery of sea shells and other such sedimentary deposits on mountain tops. I'm relatively certain that clams and mollusks aren't disposed to mountain climbing as a hobby.

all humans being born from two parents is unfeasible, the human genome is too diverse to explain a birth from two parents...

While I will grant you the premise that this is tough to wrap your mind around it is no more unfeasible than the claim that "ALL" life evolved from a "COMMON ANCESTOR". The TofE asks us to accept that life began with no intervention and grew to the current level of diversity out of pure chance and happenstance mutations. What makes it any better for you to believe in awesome diversity from common ancestry and chance versus my belief in awesome diversity from common ancestry and creation?

the Earth is dated to be much older than any YEC timescale and has a clear and measurable history much older than any YEC timescale...

Still, the measurements, such as they are, are based on our scales and made at least partially questionable by the fact that they are arrived at by imperfect beings.

there is strong evidence of common ancestry of all life forms instead of special creation, including a common ancestor of modern humans and modern chimpanzees about 5-8 million years ago.

The TofE disputes creation but embraces the idea of common ancestry. Personally I can't see the difference in intensity between the faith required by evolutionists to believe in the TofE and my believing in the God of Abraham.


Peace Be With You.

The Common Patriot

 

[Nathan Poe]

While it may be anecdotal to begin with you can hardly say there is "NO" evidence. For just one example I would inquire as to the discovery of sea shells and other such sedimentary deposits on mountain tops. I'm relatively certain that clams and mollusks aren't disposed to mountain climbing as a hobby.

Plate techtonics.

While I will grant you the premise that this is tough to wrap your mind around it is no more unfeasible than the claim that "ALL" life evolved from a "COMMON ANCESTOR". The TofE asks us to accept that life began with no intervention and grew to the current level of diversity out of pure chance and happenstance mutations. What makes it any better for you to believe in awesome diversity from common ancestry and chance versus my belief in awesome diversity from common ancestry and creation?

You're forgetting Natural Selection, which is a far more sophisticate process than "pure chance and happenstance."

Still, the measurements, such as they are, are based on our scales and made at least partially questionable by the fact that they are arrived at by imperfect beings.

Every bit as imperfect as the Creationists who disagree.

The TofE disputes creation but embraces the idea of common ancestry. Personally I can't see the difference in intensity between the faith required by evolutionists to believe in the TofE and my believing in the God of Abraham.

because you don't have all the facts. Your understanding of TofE at this point is imperfect.

Peace Be With You.

The Common Patriot

And also with you.

Nathan Poe

 

[Oncedeceived]

Jeremiah 25:11-12
"…This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the Lord, "and will make it desolate forever."

Isaiah 45:1
"This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:

Isaiah 13:19
Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, the glory of the Babylonians' pride, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Isaiah 14:23
"I will turn her into a place for owls and into swampland; I will sweep her with the broom of destruction," declares the Lord Almighty.
Jeremiah 32:36-37
"You are saying about this city, 'By the sword, famine and plague it will be handed over to the king of Babylon'; but this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety.
Nahum 1:10
They will be entangled among thorns and drunk from their wine; they will be consumed like dry stubble.

 

[Oncedeceived]

The result:

History

The earliest mention of Babylon is in a dated tablet of the reign of Sargon of Akkad (24th century BC short chr.). Over the years, its power and population waned. From around the 20th century BC, it was occupied by Amorites (nomadic Semitic tribes), flooding southern Mesopotamia from the west. The First Babylonian Dynasty was established by Sumu-abum, but the city-state controlled little surrounding territory until it became the capital of Hammurabi's empire. Hammurabi is known for codifying the laws of Babylonia, that were to have a profound influence on the region. (ca. 18th century BC). From that time onward, it continued to be the capital of Babylonia, although during the 440 years of domination by the Kassites (1595–1185 BC), the city was renamed "Karanduniash".
The city itself was built upon the Euphrates, and divided in equal parts along its left and right banks, with steep embankments to contain the river's seasonal floods. Babylon grew in extent and grandeur over time, but gradually became subject to the rule of Assyria.
It has been estimated that Babylon was the largest city in the world from c. 1770 to 1670 BC, and again between c. 612 and 320 BC. It was perhaps the first city to reach a population above 200,000. [1]

[edit] Assyrian period


Detail of the Ishtar Gate


During the reign of Sennacherib of Assyria, Babylonia was in a constant state of revolt, led by Mushezib-Marduk, and suppressed only by the complete destruction of the city of Babylon. In 689 BC, its walls, temples and palaces were razed to the ground, and the rubbish thrown into the Arakhtu, the canal bordering the earlier Babylon on the south. This act shocked the religious conscience of Mesopotamia; the subsequent murder of Sennacherib was held to be in expiation of it, and his successor Esarhaddon hastened to rebuild the old city, to receive there his crown, and make it his residence during part of the year. On his death, Babylonia was left to be governed by his elder son Shamash-shum-ukin, who eventually headed a revolt in 652 BC against his brother in Nineveh, Assurbanipal.
Once again, Babylon was besieged by the Assyrians and starved into surrender. Assurbanipal purified the city and celebrated a "service of reconciliation", but did not venture to "take the hands" of Bel. In the subsequent overthrow of the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonians saw another example of divine vengeance.

[edit] Neo-Babylonian Empire


Mural near the reconstructed Ishtar gate, depicting the palace quarter of Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon. The Ishtar gate is shown in the top left corner of the image


Under Nabopolassar, Babylon threw off the Assyrian rule in 626 BC, and became the capital of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
With the recovery of Babylonian independence, a new era of architectural activity ensued, and his son Nebuchadnezzar II (605 BC–562 BC) made Babylon into one of the wonders of the ancient world. Nebuchadnezzar ordered the complete reconstruction of the imperial grounds, including rebuilding the Etemenanki ziggurat and the construction of the Ishtar Gate — the most spectacular of eight gates that ringed the perimeter of Babylon. The Ishtar Gate survives today in the Pergamon Museum in Berlin. Nebuchadnezzar is also credited with the construction of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon (one of the seven wonders of the ancient world), said to have been built for his homesick wife Amyitis. Whether the gardens did exist is a matter of dispute. Although excavations by German archaeologist Robert Koldewey are thought to reveal its foundations, many historians disagree about the location, and some believe it may have been confused with gardens in Nineveh.

[edit] Babylon under Persia

In 539 BC the Neo-Babylonian Empire fell to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia. It is said that Cyrus walked through the gates of Babylon without encountering any resistance. He later issued a decree permitting the exiled Jews to return to their own land, and allowed their temple to be rebuilt.
Under Cyrus and his heir Darius I, Babylon became the capital city of the 9th Satrapy (Babylonia in the south and Athura in the north), as well a centre of learning and scientific advancement. In Achaemenid Persia, the ancient Babylonian arts of astronomy and mathematics were revitalised and flourished, and Babylonian scholars completed maps of constellations. Overall, the city being the administrative capital of the Persian Empire (the preeminent power of the then known world) and it played a vital part in the history of that region for over two centuries. Many important archaeological discoveries have been made that can provide a better understanding of that era[2][3].
The early Persian kings had attempted to maintain the religious ceremonies of Marduk, but by the reign of Darius III, over-taxation and the strains of numerous wars led to a deterioration of Babylon's main shrines and canals, and the disintegration of the surrounding region. Despite three attempts at rebellion in 522 BC, 521 BC, and 482 BC, the land and city of Babylon remained solidly under Persian rule for two centuries, until Alexander the Great's entrance in 331 BC.

[edit] Hellenistic Period

In 331 BC, Darius III was defeated by the forces of the Macedonian ruler Alexander the Great at the Battle of Gaugamela, and in October, Babylon fell to the young conqueror. A native account of this invasion notes a ruling by Alexander not to enter the homes of its inhabitants.
Under Alexander, Babylon again flourished as a centre of learning and commerce. But following Alexander's mysterious death in 323 BC in the palace of Nebuchadnezzar, his empire was divided amongst his generals, and decades of fighting soon began, with Babylon once again caught in the middle.
The constant turmoil virtually emptied the city of Babylon. A tablet dated 275 BC states that the inhabitants of Babylon were transported to Seleucia, where a palace was built, as well as a temple given the ancient name of E-Saggila. With this deportation, the history of Babylon comes practically to an end, though more than a century later, it was found that sacrifices were still performed in its old sanctuary. By 141 BC, when the Parthian Empire took over the region, Babylon was in complete desolation and obscurity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes. You are too lazy to post even one. Once again, a Christians claims have turned up false.

Okay --- just to see where this goes --- an easy one:

• Psalm 22 describes Jesus' crucifixion --- in detail --- 1000 years before it happened.

In fact --- they didn't even know was crucifying was --- their MO was to stone a person to death.

Now a tough one:

• The outer fence of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness points to the 30 pieces of silver Jesus was crucified for.

 

[Aron-Ra]

Oh, really?
I could go on and on, but I'll stop here --- Google "protevangelum" for more.

Yes really. Genesis didn't exist before 600 BCE. But the very grandparents of the Biblical authors wrote a series of books in which the serpent can be found. The most profound one is the epic of Gilgamesh which was written at 1700 before the first archaeological evidence of the Bible. Its a fascinating paradox that I'd love to discuss with you, but I'm sure you're not interested in the real story of the serpent, and certainly don't want to find out who she really was.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes really. Genesis didn't exist before 600 BCE. But the very grandparents of the Biblical authors wrote a series of books in which the serpent can be found. The most profound one is the epic of Gilgamesh which was written at 1700 before the first archaeological evidence of the Bible. Its a fascinating paradox that I'd love to discuss with you, but I'm sure you're not interested in the real story of the serpent, and certainly don't want to find out who she really was.

LOL --- you're right --- I'll pass.

 

[Edx]

LOL --- you're right --- I'll pass.

Faith in action ^

 

[Knowledge3]

I’ve gotten every excuse from “I don’t have time” (even though they are here every day) to prophesizing about how their opponent will conduct themselves (even though they have never tried). Since every reason they give, from A to Z is obviously false then what could the real reason be? The only difference is that they are going to be held accountable for backing up their claims and can’t run away. Is that enough to being the entire creationist argument to it’s knees?

I'm a honest person, but not a creationist.

Only an beginner's philosopher.

Do you have an apparent problem with creationism? How can I help you solve them through the philosophy of science?

 

[Knowledge3]

Yes really. Genesis didn't exist before 600 BCE. But the very grandparents of the Biblical authors wrote a series of books in which the serpent can be found. The most profound one is the epic of Gilgamesh which was written at 1700 before the first archaeological evidence of the Bible. Its a fascinating paradox that I'd love to discuss with you, but I'm sure you're not interested in the real story of the serpent, and certainly don't want to find out who she really was.

Your problem is not with creation science, but with the contents of the Bible.

So therefore, I conclude that is a personal problem with you and your views.