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Why won’t creationists participate in open and honest debate?

shernren

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What did I just say about definitions? This is what I mean. All you're doing is stating what's written in every biology book. That's not an argument. You want me to start quoting scripture at you? Ok. You're wrong. The Bible says, "The Lord God formed man of dust from the ground." Genesis 2:7
It's a good idea to quote Bible verses in context.

... the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
(Genesis 2:7 NIV)

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
(Genesis 2:19 NIV)

"Living being" (2:7) and "living creature" (2:19) are the same word in Hebrew, chay nephesh.

Even the Bible acknowledges that on a biological level we are essentially animals. Smart animals and animals with a soul, maybe, but animals all the same.
 
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MarkT

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Yes it is. Its as if one spoke of Americans referring only to citizens of the United States. But of course Canadian and Mexican citizens are Americans too, even if they've never been to the US.

Then you should surname them 'ape'. I mean 'pithecus' should be changed to something that says ape unless a 'pithecus' is an ape. Hmm... what's with the names anyways?

How about Australopithecus or Ardipithecus? The problem is they're always apes, but we can't tell exactly when they're human too. Many people now consider Australopithecines human, though I'm sure you would not.

Are you saying apes haven't changed since before humans broke off? Hmmm... so the ape kind has remained unchanged for millions of years while the human branch evolved. I think you need to work on your story some more. Let's see. You could introduce a special pair of protohumanapes, a kind of simian Adam and Eve maybe. Would that make sense?
 
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Baggins

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Are you saying apes haven't changed since before humans broke off? Hmmm... so the ape kind has remained unchanged for millions of years while the human branch evolved. I think you need to work on your story some more. Let's see. You could introduce a special pair of protohumanapes, a kind of simian Adam and Eve maybe. Would that make sense?

I read the previous post and I didn't think it said that at all.

One of us has problems with our comprehension of simple written statements.

I hope it isn't me.:)
 
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shernren

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What did I just say about definitions? This is what I mean. All you're doing is stating what's written in every biology book. That's not an argument. You want me to start quoting scripture at you? Ok. You're wrong. The Bible says, "The Lord God formed man of dust from the ground." Genesis 2:7
It's a good idea to quote Bible verses in context.

... the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
(Genesis 2:7 NIV)

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
(Genesis 2:19 NIV)

"Living being" (2:7) and "living creature" (2:19) are the same word in Hebrew, chay nephesh.

Even the Bible acknowledges that on a biological level we are essentially animals. Smart animals and animals with a soul, maybe, but animals all the same.
 
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truth above all else

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According to the scientific definition, yes. Scientists made up the story through definitions and by definitions. The whole structure is held together by definitions and without the definitions, the story falls apart. It has no meaning. The definitions are the most appealing aspect of the theory. You can come to believe in evolution simply by following the definitions. So strictly speaking, you're right. It is your belief that you are a primate because evolution is by definition the best scientific explanation. I would point out one thing though. Science is studying nature. So any scientific theory about our origin has to involve a natural cause. It has to be nature begets nature somehow. Science has nowhere else to go. Indeed, as has been pointed out many times, Creation science isn't science. That's right, strictly speaking, because Creationism doesn't ask or answer the question, 'How did nature do it?' See Creation science can go where science can not go because it can break through the barrier of science and the definition of science.

Absolutely, scientific naturalists are so steeped in naturalistic assumptions that they are blind to the arbitrary elements in their thinking.Why not consider the possibility that life is what it so obviously appears to be, the product of creative intelligence, science would not come to an end, on the contrary it would flourish once the shackles of Darwinian thinking are broken. What scientists would lose is not an inspiring research agenda, but only the illusion of total mastery of nature
 
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Aron-Ra

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What aberrations? You've got an animal population with genes coding for different characters. You can mix and match genes and get variety. You can isolate some members and perhaps lose something genetically. I mean Africans are more likely to get sickle cell anemia for instance. But when you cross breed animals, mostly you get alternative linked characters like eye color and coat color coming out.

Now you say hidden abberations come out like some kind of demon. I don't think so. Any mutations caused by a mutagen would not come out as a new character. Any damage that can not be repaired would cause tumors and cancer. I don't think new genes are created. I think genes can be lost and traits can become fixed.
Sometimes that is the case. But even when it is, it can still result in a new trait.

One example of new variance is the Glycophorin A somatic cell mutation (Jensen, R. H., S. Zhang, et al. (1997) which has been identified in some Tibetans, which allows them to endure prolongued periods at altitudes of 7,000 feet without succumbing to apoplexia, or “altitude sickness”. A different, but similar mutation was identified in high altitude natives in the Andes.
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/content/full/204/18/3151

Another example of that is the CCR5-delta 32 mutation. About 10% of whites of European origin now carry it. But the incidence is only 2% in central Asia, and is completely absent among East Asians, Africans, and American Indians. It appears to have suddenly become relatively common among white Europeans about 700 years ago, evidently as a result of the Black Plague, indicating another example of natural selection allowing one gene dominance in a changing environment. It is harmless (or neutral) in every respect other than its one clearly beneficial feature; if one inherits this gene from both parents, they will be especially resistant (if not immune) to AIDS.
(source: Science-Frontiers.com / PBS.org)

There’s also a family in Germany who are already unusually strong. But in one case, a child was born with a double copy of an anti-myostatin mutation carried by both parents. The result is a herculian kiddo who was examined at only a few days old for his unusually well-developed muscles. By four years old, he had twice the mucle mass of normal children, and half the fat. Pharmaceutical synthesis of this mutation is being examined for potential use against muscular dystrophy or sarcopenia.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/06/24/512617.html

There is also a family in Connecticut that has been identified as having hyperdense, virtually unbreakable bones:
“Members of this family carry a genetic mutation that causes high bone density. They have a deep and wide jaw and bony growth on the palate. Richard P. Lifton, M.D., Ph.D., chair of the Department of Genetics, along with Karl L. Insogna, M.D., professor of medicine and director of the Yale Bone Center, and colleagues, traced the mutation to a gene that was the subject of an earlier study. In that study researchers showed that low bone density could be caused by a mutation that disrupts the function of a gene called LRP5. In the recent study, the Yale team mapped the family’s genetic mutation to the same chromosome segment in LRP5. “It made us wonder if a different mutation increased LRP5 function, leading to an opposite phenotype, that is, high bone density,” Lifton said.
Family members, according to the investigators, have bones so strong they rival those of a character in the 2000 movie Unbreakable. “If there are living counterparts to the [hero] in Unbreakable, who is in a terrible train wreck and walks away without a single broken bone, they’re members of this family,” said Lifton. “They have extraordinarily dense bones and there is no history of fractures. These people have about the strongest bones on the entire planet.”
http://info.med.yale.edu/external/pubs/ym_au02/findings.html

We've also identified an emerging population of tetrachromatic women who can see a bit of the normally invisible ultraviolet spectrum.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4128183
I agree sons don't look exactly like their fathers. Alot depends on the mother.
That's part of what I meant about the gene pool inhibiting abberations, if the mother has genes from the larger pool.
But you seem to be agreeing with me when you say the gene pool is reduced. I said it shrinks. Same thing.
No it doesn't. Cut it in half, and both sides may grow -albeit differently. That's not the same thing.
If there's something important that doesn't get passed on, it affects the population. I think, if you start with a pool that represents the original kind, with every possible variation present, then a new population that could be missing a factor or two is possible and traits would become fixed.
There's no such thing as an original kind. can you cite any two animals which science considers closely-related but which you consider to be specially-created unrelated to anything else?
I think after further speciation you might get deformities but the kind of animal wouldn't change. At least, I've never seen any evidence of it. Some flightless birds use their wings as flippers but I don't think they are becoming fish even though their environment isn't the typical bird environment.
And losing the ability to fly as well as the ability to run is not a deformity? As you've just demonstrated, some deformities can result in enhancements that are beneficial and thus passed on.
I seriously doubt limits would not exist. Limits are everywhere in nature.
There is a limit to how specialized something may become, because eventually, it can no longer change with the environment. The more generalized the design, the more adaptable it is. But that is the only limit.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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There’s also a family in Germany who are already unusually strong. But in one case, a child was born with a double copy of an anti-myostatin mutation carried by both parents. The result is a herculian kiddo who was examined at only a few days old for his unusually well-developed muscles. By four years old, he had twice the mucle mass of normal children, and half the fat. Pharmaceutical synthesis of this mutation is being examined for potential use against muscular dystrophy or sarcopenia.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/06/24/512617.html

There is also a family in Connecticut that has been identified as having hyperdense, virtually unbreakable bones:
“Members of this family carry a genetic mutation that causes high bone density. They have a deep and wide jaw and bony growth on the palate. Richard P. Lifton, M.D., Ph.D., chair of the Department of Genetics, along with Karl L. Insogna, M.D., professor of medicine and director of the Yale Bone Center, and colleagues, traced the mutation to a gene that was the subject of an earlier study. In that study researchers showed that low bone density could be caused by a mutation that disrupts the function of a gene called LRP5. In the recent study, the Yale team mapped the family’s genetic mutation to the same chromosome segment in LRP5. “It made us wonder if a different mutation increased LRP5 function, leading to an opposite phenotype, that is, high bone density,” Lifton said.
Family members, according to the investigators, have bones so strong they rival those of a character in the 2000 movie Unbreakable. “If there are living counterparts to the [hero] in Unbreakable, who is in a terrible train wreck and walks away without a single broken bone, they’re members of this family,” said Lifton. “They have extraordinarily dense bones and there is no history of fractures. These people have about the strongest bones on the entire planet.”
http://info.med.yale.edu/external/pubs/ym_au02/findings.html
Lets hope that this kid never marries a woman from that family. Their offspring would be nigh unstoppable.
 
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Aron-Ra

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Absolutely, scientific naturalists are so steeped in naturalistic assumptions that they are blind to the arbitrary elements in their thinking.Why not consider the possibility that life is what it so obviously appears to be, the product of creative intelligence,
We consider all possibilities. But that one cannot be shown to be a probability.
science would not come to an end, on the contrary it would flourish once the shackles of Darwinian thinking are broken.
Yes, science would come to an end actually. Everything science stands for or seeks to acheive would be destroyed if we gave up figuring out how things really work and went back to using the excuse that it must be magic. You can't experiment with that. You can't use it to make testable predictions, and that sort of baseless assumption cannot ever be used to improve our understanding of anything in any verifiable way. Yes, science "unshackled" by the methodological naturalism it is necessarily based on would end, and a new dark ages would begin.
What scientists would lose is not an inspiring research agenda, but only the illusion of total mastery of nature
Aah yes, the illusion presented in Genesis 1:28. We've already given up on that one, thank you. Rather than dominate and subdue, we'd rather nurture and preserve now.
 
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Aron-Ra

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Even the Bible acknowledges that on a biological level we are essentially animals. Smart animals and animals with a soul, maybe, but animals all the same.
Actually, not only does the Bible acknowledge that humans are animals, but it says that other animals besides us have souls too.

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?"
--Ecclesiastes 3:19-22
 
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Aron-Ra

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Yes it is. All primates are animals including humans. You are an animal according to every criteria required of that word.

animal (n-ml) n.
any organic (Carbon-based) replicative RNA/DNA protein organism:
(a) consisting of multiple diploid cells which each contain a nucleus;
(b) which perform chemical reactions and acheive homeostasis;
(c) who's gammete cells have a posterior flagella;
(d) which must ingest and digest other organisms in a digestive tract in order to sustain themselves.
--Biological definition
What did I just say about definitions? This is what I mean. All you're doing is stating what's written in every biology book. That's not an argument.
Yes it is. When you can substantiate your claim, you can demonstrate its accuracy, so that it is no longer a mere baseless assertion. You should try it sometime.
You want me to start quoting scripture at you?
Why? That wouldn't be an argument. It would be no more relevant than citing the Bhagavad-Gita, War & Peace, or the adventures of Winnie the Pooh.
Ok. You're wrong. The Bible says, "The Lord God formed man of dust from the ground." Genesis 2:7
I'll see your Gen 2:7 and raise you Ecclesiastes 3:19-21. But I remind you magic folklore cannot trump what we can objectively prove with measureable accuracy. So you're wrong, and you are an animal -even according to your own fables.
 
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Aron-Ra

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Aron-Ra said:
Its as if one spoke of Americans referring only to citizens of the United States. But of course Canadian and Mexican citizens are Americans too, even if they've never been to the US.
Then you should surname them 'ape'. I mean 'pithecus' should be changed to something that says ape unless a 'pithecus' is an ape. Hmm... what's with the names anyways?
The word, "ape" is synonemous with "Hominoid", and "great ape" means the same thing as "Hominid". We humans are a subset of Hominids which are also a subset of Hominoids. Its rather like being a LosAngelino, a Californian, and an American all at the same time.
Are you saying apes haven't changed since before humans broke off?
All the apes have changed since humans emerged among them. But humans never "broke off" from them.
Hmmm... so the ape kind has remained unchanged for millions of years while the human branch evolved.
No, Ramapithecus is extinct. It was replaced by Dryopithecus, Sivapithecus, gigantopithecus, and a few others. Now they're all extinct, having been replaced by orangutans. Dryopithecines are extinct too, as are about fifty other ancient ape species. They've since been replaced by gorillas, chimpanzees and hominines. We have evolved together, but in different ways.
I think you need to work on your story some more.
Maybe the problem is your comprehension. Its staggering to me that you could have participated in this forum for as long as you have and still have no understanding of this topic whatsoever.
Let's see. You could introduce a special pair of protohumanapes, a kind of simian Adam and Eve maybe. Would that make sense?
No. But then, neither has anything else you've suggested so far.
 
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mark kennedy

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Then you should surname them 'ape'. I mean 'pithecus' should be changed to something that says ape unless a 'pithecus' is an ape. Hmm... what's with the names anyways?

It can get confusing when they get into the semanticial shell games. Austropithicus simply means southern ape, most of the apes that are considered our ancestors were found in southern Africa. The general term austropithecine is a common way of refering to them but don't expect anything that clear and concise in this forum. The hominids start somwhere about 5 million years ago and are thought to be apes with distinct human features, thus the prefix Homo 'same'. Up until Homo habilis we are talking about a semi-bipedal 3 foot tall chimpanzee basically. This thing had a cranial capacity slightly bigger then a modern ape. From Homo habilis to the Homo erectus specimens the brain size literally doubles in a couple of hundred thousand years.

That's why they like to play this semantical shell game, the fossils are obviously ape or human if you really look at them. Try this site, notice the differences between Homo habilis and Homo erectus.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/a_tree.html

Are you saying apes haven't changed since before humans broke off? Hmmm... so the ape kind has remained unchanged for millions of years while the human branch evolved. I think you need to work on your story some more. Let's see. You could introduce a special pair of protohumanapes, a kind of simian Adam and Eve maybe. Would that make sense?

Ask them to show you the chimpanzee's ancestors from southern Africa. They can't do that because everytime an ape skull turns up in Africa it's immediatly considered one of our ancestors. Same with the gorrila, check this guy out:

WT17ksmf.jpg


This guy has a cranial capacity of 410 cc, notice the sagittal crest (mohawk looking thing down the middle of the skull). This looks just like a gorrila to me:

gorilla_skull_jaw_front.jpg


One of the distinctions between a chimpanzees skull and a gorilla is the chimpanzee skull is smooth on top. You have you use some personal judgement when looking at these fossil skulls and don't get all wrapped up in their semantical head trips.

Your not an ape. What's the difference between and ape and a human being? The human cranial capacity is 2x to 3x the size of apes, it's as simple as that.
 
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Tomk80

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Your not an ape. What's the difference between and ape and a human being? The human cranial capacity is 2x to 3x the size of apes, it's as simple as that.
No Mark, having a large brain just makes as big-brained apes.

Just as having a big motor and sporty design makes a Ferrari a car with a sporty design and a big motor.
 
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Aron-Ra

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Your not an ape. What's the difference between and ape and a human being? The human cranial capacity is 2x to 3x the size of apes, it's as simple as that.
You know, you could say the exact same thing if you replace the word, 'ape' with 'primate' or 'mammal'. So its about like saying 'what's the difference between a chihuahua and a dog?'

How is it that your criteria is that the ape with the largest brain isn't an ape anymore? And what exactly is the exact cut-off measurement where you would agree that everything above that displacement is human and everything below it is 'only' an ape?
 
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Edx

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You know, you could say the exact same thing if you replace the word, 'ape' with 'primate' or 'mammal'. So its about like saying 'what's the difference between a chihuahua and a dog?'

How is it that your criteria is that the ape with the largest brain isn't an ape anymore? And what exactly is the exact cut-off measurement where you would agree that everything above that displacement is human and everything below it is 'only' an ape?

And what if a human gives birth to a baby with a small brain. Accoridng to Marks logic it wouldnt be human.
 
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Aron-Ra

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No Mark, having a large brain just makes as big-brained apes.

Just as having a big motor and sporty design makes a Ferrari a car with a sporty design and a big motor.
The example I always liked is this. Kit, the talking car from Knightrider.
TorqueOmata31.jpg

Imagine that car arguing that, even though it is a inarguably a Pontiac TransAm, it still denies that it is a car -because cars can't talk. Well, a talking TransAm is still a car, and a big-brained ape is often an ape in denial. :cool:
 
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mark kennedy

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You know, you could say the exact same thing if you replace the word, 'ape' with 'primate' or 'mammal'. So its about like saying 'what's the difference between a chihuahua and a dog?'

We know that you get a large amount of divergance from canines, we know because we have been breeding dogs for so long. With primates the cranial capacity put us at three times the size of apes making this our most distinctive feature.

How is it that your criteria is that the ape with the largest brain isn't an ape anymore? And what exactly is the exact cut-off measurement where you would agree that everything above that displacement is human and everything below it is 'only' an ape?

I would say that an ape does not exceed 800cc and the average between 400cc and 500cc. There is a cerbral rubicon that apes cannot cross, brain tissue is just too highly conserved.
 
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mark kennedy

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The example I always liked is this. Kit, the talking car from Knightrider.
TorqueOmata31.jpg

Imagine that car arguing that, even though it is a inarguably a Pontiac TransAm, it still denies that it is a car -because cars can't talk. Well, a talking TransAm is still a car, and a big-brained ape is often an ape in denial. :cool:

I don't want to burst your bubble but you do know that Kit didn't really talk right? Cars can't talk, except in cheesy action series or Disney films like Herby goes Bannanas.
 
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