Why won’t creationists participate in open and honest debate?

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

If you put half as much energy into learning the truth, instead of learning lies, you might really know something.

Oh the irony… this coming from a person who doesn’t even know what it means to “know” and spells truth with a capital “T”.

The other irony is that the atheists have a better understanding of the bible than you do (and I’m not talking about memorizing words).

 

[Beastt]

If you put half as much energy into learning the truth, instead of learning lies, you might really know something. As it is, you seem to have forgotten what little bit of truth you did have. Do you enjoy walking in total darkness? Is that a place you like to be?

I would suggest that "darkness" is when one refuses to see what is clearly demonstrated by reality. Only by closing one's eyes to what can be seen is one truly in darkness. I used to be confused and I remained confused for as long as I accepted the excuses, cliches and rationalizations which must be applied to Christianity if one is to attempt to hold it as consistent with reason. I appreciate your concern but, since realizing that I had no need to close my eyes to what reality has to show, I've never seen more clearly.

What you need to do is confront the issue of man inequity to man and the fact that God is not going to take the blame for the mess that man and the devil have made out of this world. God has a plan and He is going to make it right. Without God, then this world would keep right on going the way it has been going.

You're attempting to blame man for being created rather than blaming God for creating man. If things go wrong, it is always the fault of the designer and builder, not of that which is designed and built which works in a way other than intended.

Your misplacing the blame in an attempt to excuse he who is claimed to be all-knowing and all-powerful. If indeed God exists and holds claim to those two traits, then there is no reasonable means by which to blame anything on man, rather than God, except to acknowledge that there is no evidence, or consistency in the belief, that God exists.

If God does not exist, then he is not to blame. If he does and is omnipotent and all-knowing, then nothing of inferiority in either of those traits can hold the blame for what God has done.

 

[OdwinOddball]

John, you of all people know that it is not enough to say something. If you cannot, or refuse to back up your statements, you were better off not stateing them at all.

An unsupported argument does more to disprove the position, than a porrly supported one ever can.

Oh but thats right, in JohnR7-land you don't have to understand things, you just have to disagree with them.

 

[Aron-Ra]

birds are literally dinosaurs

Your evidence for this is?

Plentiful. Let's start with this: What is a dinosaur?

 

[sonfleur]

I am getting the impression that my arguments are not valued or taken seriously. Also, I have received very unsupported arguments in response. Therefore, I will refrain from debating.

Take care all.

 

[JohnR7]

The other irony is that the atheists have a better understanding of the bible than you do (and I’m not talking about memorizing words).

Amazing, they know more and yet they have never picked up a Bible. So you think I have learned nothing in 20 years of intense study. Sign me up I want to be an atheist so I can know all there is to know without putting even a tiny bit of time and effort into it. Let me know if you ever decide to join us in the real world, ok. Following your logic, then I know more about evolution then any Biologist.

 

[JohnR7]

Plentiful. Let's start with this: What is a dinosaur?

Never mind, I should have known. You do not ever answer questions, you just ask them.

 

[Chalnoth]

Amazing, they know more and yet they have never picked up a Bible. So you think I have learned nothing in 20 years of intense study. Sign me up I want to be an atheist so I can know all there is to know without putting even a tiny bit of time and effort into it. Let me know if you ever decide to join us in the real world, ok. Following your logic, then I know more about evolution then any Biologist.

So you somehow think that atheists aren't Christian just because they don't know as much as you do about the religion?

 

[Chalnoth]

I am getting the impression that my arguments are not valued or taken seriously. Also, I have received very unsupported arguments in response. Therefore, I will refrain from debating.

Well, I'm sorry, but arguments from irriducible complexity are just fallacious. The argument always basically amounts to this statement:

"I don't know of a process by which X could have occurred naturally, therefore it didn't occur naturally."

This is a logical fallacy called argument from ignorance, and thus the argument holds no water. If you want to disprove any theory, you have to do it on the grounds of the theory itself. You have to learn the theory, and ask what that theory predicts. Then you have to test those predictions against nature and see if they hold up, but since we can't see or know everything about nature, we have to limit ourselves to predictions based upon things we have already measured.

Lack of transitional fossils, for example, is not evidence that can be used against evolution. This is because fossils are rare, and thus one doesn't expect to see every single step along the way. So instead you should pay attention to what fossils are found, or what living species we know of today, and ask if they are consistent with the theory of evolution.

This is why we keep harping on about the nested hierarchy of all life: this is one really solid prediction of the theory of evolution, that it should all fit into a nested hierarchy. If you ever found an animal that did not fit into this nested hierarchy, it would be evidence of something other than evolution at work (mermaids, faeries, unicorns, griffons, etc. would all work: each of these combines the traits of two or more species from separate branches of the tree, and thus could never occur naturally by evolutionary processes).

 

[JohnR7]

So you somehow think that atheists aren't Christian just because they don't know as much as you do about the religion?

How could they be atheists if they knew anything at all about what it means to be a christian?

Christianity is simply to good of a deal to pass up on.
For example God tells us that He will give us all of the desires of our heart
and that He will not deny us of any good thing. How could anyone in their right mind pass up God plan?

I do not blame them though. I blame the sunday school teachers that failed to get the job done.

 

[lovenmercy]

I think it is unfair of you to impose your standards of scientific truthfulness on the YEC community. It is a religious community, those YECists here are not interested in science or in the facts about the universe, nor are they interested in learning how to discover and understand these things. They are here primarily to preach and do apologetics for their religious beliefs. Any reference to science is just that a passing reference done in order to placate those here to talk about the relationship of science to religious belief.

You are trying to impose on them a different epistemology and way of understanding the world. Their way is to filter everything through a specific community's worldview which claims to completely correspond to God's POV. Since this POV is by definition correct there is no reason to try to alter any component of their worldview because they know apriori that it is true and complete and doesn't need any revision. Debates by their very nature require listening to the other side and trying in a sympathetic view to understand not just the words but the big ideas and the driving emotional forces behind your opponent's position. But YECists know that Satan himself is behind all opposition to them, therefore to understand or even worse sympathize with other-than-YECists is to concede something to the evil one and on moral grounds alone this is unacceptable.

So i hope you see why those YECists who post here can not in good conscience accept any variation on their crusade to bring truth and enlightenment to those held in darkness and falsity, those who disagree with them and their God. They must be single minded and preach the Gospel of YECism as loudly and as persistently as they can, debates will just get in the way of this fundamental and important task. Just like the facts themselves do, thus requiring the exercise of a greater amount of blind faith to counteract them.

So please excuse XXXX from the debate, he is busy doing my work of preaching and doesn't have time for extraneous endeavors---God.

Thank You for this post.I as a creationist don't feel I need to debate over my beliefs.Soon enough everyone will find out the truth for themselves.Also, God doesn't want us fighting with eachother.A true believer preaches the Word of God to all who will listen and will not force anyone to accept it. God said we shall come freely unto Him.Therefore, debates are unneccesary.

 

[Chalnoth]

How could they be atheists if they knew anything at all about what it means to be a christian?

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the atheists on this forum used to be Christians. I did. I was raised in a strong Christian family. My mother a devout Lutheran, my father a devout non-denominational (that leaned towards Southern Baptist). I learned quite a lot about the Christian church, the faith, and so on. I seriously doubt that you know more about Christianity than the average atheists that browses these forums.

After all, why else would an atheist be drawn to a Christian forum if they weren't at least familiar with Christianity?

 

[Chalnoth]

Thank You for this post.I as a creationist don't feel I need to debate over my beliefs.Soon enough everyone will find out the truth for themselves.Also, God doesn't want us fighting with eachother.A true believer preaches the Word of God to all who will listen and will not force anyone to accept it. God said we shall come freely unto Him.Therefore, debates are unneccesary.

I'm sorry, but I'm not turning off my brain.

 

[Ondoher]

How could they be atheists if they knew anything at all about what it means to be a christian?

Christianity is simply to good of a deal to pass up on.
For example God tells us that He will give us all of the desires of our heart
and that He will not deny us of any good thing. How could anyone in their right mind pass up God plan?

I do not blame them though. I blame the sunday school teachers that failed to get the job done.

Have you ever considered that somebody may know all this and not believe it?

 

[Nathan Poe]

How could they be atheists if they knew anything at all about what it means to be a christian?

It was easy for me. Try it sometime.

Christianity is simply to good of a deal to pass up on.

So is the Brooklyn Bridge.

For example God tells us that He will give us all of the desires of our heart

And for $500, I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge.

and that He will not deny us of any good thing. How could anyone in their right mind pass up God plan?

Ok, fine. $250 for the Brooklyn Bridge. You'll make that back during one day of Rush Hour traffic.

How could anyone in their right mind pass up that plan?

I do not blame them though. I blame the sunday school teachers that failed to get the job done.

Including would-be Sunday School teachers such as yourself? Clearly you're not getting the job done, either.

 

[Pesto]

How could they be atheists if they knew anything at all about what it means to be a christian?

By studying the religion.

Christianity is simply to good of a deal to pass up on.
For example God tells us that He will give us all of the desires of our heart
and that He will not deny us of any good thing. How could anyone in their right mind pass up God plan?

That sounds suspiciously like Pascal's Wager.

I do not blame them though. I blame the sunday school teachers that failed to get the job done.

And here you seem to be advocating indoctrination.

 

[Aron-Ra]

Never mind, I should have known. You do not ever answer questions, you just ask them.

I've learned a long time ago that if I just tell you [creationists] the answers, you'll simply ignore them without a thought. But I can ask you the questions, and they can't be answered from the creationist perspective. Were creationists accountable, then they could do as I do and honestly, systematically and properly address every point, query or challenge ignoring none. Of course were you to do that you couldn't remain creationist very long.

 

[JohnR7]

I'm sorry, but I'm not turning off my brain.

Perhaps that is because you can not "turn off" something that has already been turned off.

 

[Aron-Ra]

I am getting the impression that my arguments are not valued or taken seriously. Also, I have received very unsupported arguments in response. Therefore, I will refrain from debating.

Take care all.

Unsupported?! When the only way you can respond is to admit that you were wrong, then you run away with the flimsiest of excuses. Is that the creationist strategy? I cited three papers published to peer-reviewed journals by professional scientists who were all experts in this field. And you call that unsupported?! You cited no references whatsoever and made a handful of claims which were all proven wrong by the very researchers who were closest to supporting your position. If you want to be taken seriously, admit when you've made an error, and move on.

 

[JohnR7]

But I can ask you the questions, and they can't be answered from the creationist perspective.

If you are going to ask questions about something the Bible does not talk about, then why come to a christian forum?

Most of the Bible covers the last 6,000 years. So your not going to learn a lot about something that has not taken place in the last 6,000 years.

What is a dinosaur?

I do not understand where your going with this, so I am going to answer your qestion.

A dinosaur is a skelton or a fossilized skelton that they find in the ground.