Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

[Standing Up]

So far, all we know is that folks who pray to the dead in Christ do so without any explicit apostolic teaching. Instead, it is tradition taught from bishops.

Churches of the bishops, rather than Churches from apostles.

 

[jackmt]

What I cited contradicts your claim that our connection to Christ and one another is limited to earth. Christ has united all those in him into one body, both those in heaven and on earth. Scripture is quite clear about that. And as St. Paul teaches, there is no division in the one body of Christ (1 Cor 12:25). All of its members care equally for one another.

You will get no argument from any Catholic that we are not to 'consult' the dead. Necromancy is strictly forbidden by the church. Seeking to conjure up those who have died to elicit information from them is not only wrong, it's dangerous.

Asking another member of the body of Christ to pray for us is not 'consulting' them. And if you're going to cite 1 Tim 2:5 as Christ being our sole mediator to the Father (which Catholics agree he is), then you need to place it in the context of the first four verses of 1 Timothy 2, where Paul urges us all to become "intercessors" for each other. Our ability to intercede for each other is totally dependent upon the sole mediation of Christ to the Father, but not only can we intercede for each other but we are commanded to do so. And it in no way contradicts Christ being the sole mediator between God and man, or St. Paul would not have told us to do it in the same breath.

Claiming that we can ask those on earth to intercede for us but not those in heaven creates a division in the body of Christ where St. Paul says there is none. And it flatly denies the Scriptural truth that Jesus Christ by his death and resurrection has united heaven and earth into himself.

I took your question to refer to we who are still on earth. Otherwise the question answered itself. Jesus Christ the Godman is the nexus of heaven and earth. We can only access heaven through Him. Once so accessed, what need have we of any other intercessor, nevermind that we are forbidden to seek another?

 

[narnia59]

I took your question to refer to we who are still on earth. Otherwise the question answered itself. Jesus Christ the Godman is the nexus of heaven and earth. We can only access heaven through Him. Once so accessed, what need have we of any other intercessor, nevermind that we are forbidden to seek another?

Are you proposing that once in the body of Christ we are no longer in need of any intercessory prayer from any others?

 

[narnia59]

But we believe in the teachings and promise of Christ as present, now, and lived, for we:

"... are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

God is not "up there", but Christ is present with us, now, the heavenly KIngdom is here and now, all this is present and now in Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Is living Christ is "Judaistic traditions" ? No, it is the fulfillment of Judaism.
Not a pagan understanding, nor the secularism that boxes God off somewhere in scrolls, not an ideology that is an intellectual belief,
but the promise and living in God who is above time (chronos), and is with us in time (kairos), and all that are with Christ.

This. We have come to the spirits of just men made perfect, to the heavenly assembly NOW. This. We are with Christ, and all that are with Christ.

 

[jackmt]

Are you proposing that once in the body of Christ we are no longer in need of any intercessory prayer from any others?

All prayer request and suggestions by the writers of Scripture were to and for the earth dwelling saints. Yes we need prayers and to pray for one another. Let's do it Scriptually and not twist or interpolate Scripture to justify unscriptural practices.

 

[narnia59]

All prayer request and suggestions by the writers of Scripture were to and for the earth dwelling saints. Yes we need prayers and to pray for one another. Let's do it Scriptually and not twist or interpolate Scripture to justify unscriptural practices.

Asking another member of the body of Christ to pray for us is not unscriptural.

 

[Thekla]

So far, all we know is that folks who pray to the dead in Christ do so without any explicit apostolic teaching. Instead, it is tradition taught from bishops.

Churches of the bishops, rather than Churches from apostles.

And where is the evidence for your claim ?

The tradition that death of the bios = death of the zoe, lethe, this pagan belief embraced, that seeks to extinguish the alethia that we are come to the heavenly kingdom, surrounded by angels, the Church of the firstborn .. and partition God off somewhere in the clouds, that the fullness of Christianity is not something lived but yet another collection of intellectual statements from which we create an ideology ...

this survival of the sophia/philosophia of men, and of pagan teachings on death -- this tradition is not of God.

 

[jackmt]

Asking another member of the body of Christ to pray for us is not unscriptural.

Summoning a deceased one is.

 

[jackmt]

And where is the evidence for your claim ?

The tradition that death of the bios = death of the zoe, lethe, this pagan belief embraced, that seeks to extinguish the alethia that we are come to the heavenly kingdom, surrounded by angels, the Church of the firstborn .. and partition God off somewhere in the clouds, that the fullness of Christianity is not something lived but yet another collection of intellectual statements from which we create an ideology ...

this survival of the sophia/philosophia of men, and of pagan teachings on death -- this tradition is not of God.

The Apostles never advocated summoning the deceased; the bishops of liturgical (=works) denominations do. And you know that we know the soul survives death and you know what we mean when we say prayers for and to the dead, but you refuse to make the distinction even for arguments' sake.

 

[narnia59]

Summoning a deceased one is.

We don't have to 'summon' them. Have you not read the 12th chapter of Hebrews that Thekla cited? We come into their presence.

"You have come to.... the spirits of just men made perfect". In fact, we're surrounded by them, per Scripture.

By our unity with Christ we have access to heaven. You said so yourself I believe.

Guess what. They're THERE. The idea that we would have to 'summon' them in order to be in their presence is not Christian.

The idea that we would have to 'summon' them to us instead of our being lifted up to them denies our unity to the resurrected Christ and our citizenship in heaven.

If you cannot recognize the fundamental change that occurs with the resurrection of Christ and the unity that exists in his body between heaven and earth, nobody here can do much to help you.

 

[Thekla]

The Apostles never advocated summoning the deceased; the bishops of liturgical (=works) denominations do. And you know that we know the soul survives death and you know what we mean when we say prayers for and to the dead, but you refuse to make the distinction even for arguments' sake.

The distinction you make is from a pagan teaching, that we do not embrace.

Among the pagan philosophers, the bios (physical) life was the core and expression of the moral imperative, the good life, and the life that ceased. The zoe was shared by man and animals. The body was, thus, central in defining life, and understanding death.

Not so in Christianity, which reverses the importance, as Christ speaks of the zoe and the spiritual zoe - the eternal life (zoe) that we participate in now and continues past the death of the bios.

The association of death with lethe (forgetfulness) and not being alert, as such, is also a pagan construct.

Christ is the Truth, and truth (aletheia) means not forgetting, remembering, not sleeping, alertness. Can one be in the presence of Christ and as lethe ?
Further, to be with Christ is to be present with God Who is love; can one be in the presence of Christ Who is love and not love ?

The righteous will be in everlasting remembrance (Psalm 112:6) - and only God is everlasting. What is it to forget those whom God remembers ?
Prov. 10:7 We are to forget to remember ?

Do you know what we mean when we say we pray for those who have left the body ? And do you know what we mean when we attest that the Scriptures are true in action, that we do not deny that we are come now to the heavenly Jerusalem (it's in a present tense, it is kairos not chronos), to ... "the spirits of just men made perfect (teliew/completed !). Christ tells us: be being perfected as your Father in heaven is perfect (teleios). Those just men in Hebrews - they are already perfected, they are not in process like the rest of us. And this is where we are come to now. We are surrounded (Hebrews 12) actively now.


I do not refuse to "make a distinction for arguments sake". You claim a distinction that is not. It is a distinction that is a continuation of Hellenistic paganism, which we have refused.

 

[Thekla]

Summoning a deceased one is.

Which we do not do.

The heavenly Jerusalem is now, and includes the spirit of men "made perfect" (made completed); those who are with Christ.

 

[Polycarp1]

The Apostles never advocated summoning the deceased; the bishops of liturgical (=works) denominations do. And you know that we know the soul survives death and you know what we mean when we say prayers for and to the dead, but you refuse to make the distinction even for arguments' sake.

"Stop telling people to drink from this Well; you just saw me pour poison in it, didn't you"???

That's the message I'm getting from your posts. Misrepresenting the position of a fellow Christian ("straw man" fallacy) in order to argue against it is bearing false witness.

 

[jackmt]

"Stop telling people to drink from this Well; you just saw me pour poison in it, didn't you"???

That's the message I'm getting from your posts. Misrepresenting the position of a fellow Christian ("straw man" fallacy) in order to argue against it is bearing false witness.

tu coq. We're done.

 

[Standing Up]

tu coq. We're done.

Folks who practice invoking the dead in Christ won't stop because of folks who don't.

 

[jackmt]

Folks who practice invoking the dead in Christ won't stop because of folks who don't.

I have long believed that a belief system is not the motivation of our actions, but a justification of them.

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

I have long believed that a belief system is not the motivation of our actions, but a justification of them.

agree to disagree.

 

[Thekla]

Folks who practice invoking the dead in Christ won't stop because of folks who don't.

I'm wondering ...

if one can say one has "Christ in your heart", how can one be separated from those who are present with Christ ?

 

[Standing Up]

I'm wondering ...

if one can say one has "Christ in your heart", how can one be separated from those who are present with Christ ?

In case I wasn't clear before, scripture and tradition are clear that Peter/Andrew and James/John were brothers after the flesh. I agree. Since we disagree on this, we have no common ground by which to converse. Please don't bother responding snidely or otherwise to my posts.

 

[Thekla]

In case I wasn't clear before, scripture and tradition are clear that Peter/Andrew and James/John were brothers after the flesh. I agree. Since we disagree on this, we have no common ground by which to converse. Please don't bother responding snidely or otherwise to my posts.

I do wonder as well why a matter of the flesh/genetic relationship would so offend you; I can only imagine it is important to your theology.

As you know, I have stated that I do think they are related/brothers after the flesh, but as you must know, "son of" is not always an indication of genetic first degree relationship nor is "adelphos". Knowing this, it would be wrong of me to remark conclusively on their genetic relationship per it's description in Scripture.