Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

[JesusFreak78]

Physical proximity is not needed for spiritual hearing; the man in Macedonia who prayed Paul to come was heard by Paul in the Holy Spirit, though separated by a great distance.

There is no evidence of him praying to Paul. All we know is the Holy Spirit gave Paul a vision about this man who asked for help. So you still haven't answered my question.

Physical proximity does not account for accurate hearing, and this is documented in Scripture ("he who has ears to hear ...").

I never claimed any such thing either, so I don't see what that has to do with my questions.

The body experiences through time and space - as the body is part of dimensional creation. Man, dust, became a living soul through the breath of God, thus he also has a non-dimensional, spiritual aspect of his whole being.

Those who are absent from the body, and present with Christ, are spiritually alive but this is not the same as being dimensionally active; as for how they "hear, it is through the Holy Spirit. As for how they experience this hearing - I do not know. We still experience sequential (chronological) time; but to be with God is to be beyond and above time, and of this we may have a foretaste now, but not more ...

This doesn't answer any of my questions.

In Revelation, the prayers of the saints (on earth) are presented to God in heaven - certainly, what is prayed here is known. We do not circumscribe the Holy Spirit, Who binds the body of Christ.

I wasn't asking for if God is hearing our prayers. I was asking if the saints you say are in heaven can hear your prayers.

 

[JesusFreak78]

we are a body, with one Spirit uniting us all; so just as our body parts, though separate are none the less a single entity, so too the Church. Those in heaven know fully as they are fully known, and are like Him, as they see Him as He is.

This doesn't answer my questions.

 

[Thekla]

There is no evidence of him praying to Paul. All we know is the Holy Spirit gave Paul a vision about this man who asked for help. So you still haven't answered my question.

The Scriptures specifically state that the man "prayed/parakalon him (Paul). And yes, Paul heard the man in the Holy Spirit through a 'vision'.
Physical proximity, physical hearing, physical sight were not involved.

As for your question, could you clarify it ?

I never claimed any such thing either, so I don't see what that has to do with my questions.

Then what does the state of the body have to do with the discussion ?

This doesn't answer any of my questions.

It refers to the reality of what man is, and thus is related indeed to the issue.
As for your question, perhaps you could (again) clarify it.

I wasn't asking for if God is hearing our prayers. I was asking if the saints you say are in heaven can hear your prayers.

Those in heaven (if you read Revelation) present the prayers of those on earth to God. How can it be said they don't hear when the Scriptures testify that they do ?

 

[Thekla]

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Rev. 5:8


And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. Rev 8:4

 

[JesusFreak78]

The Scriptures specifically state that the man "prayed/parakalon him (Paul). And yes, Paul heard the man in the Holy Spirit through a 'vision'.
Physical proximity, physical hearing, physical sight were not involved.

As for your question, could you clarify it ?

My questions again is:
1) Where is biblical evidence for they can hear your prayer?

2) If you can find biblical evidence for they can hear your prayer, how do you know they listen to your prayer and not someone else prayer or are they omnipresent so they can hear everyone's prayers all around the world at the same time?

I should clarify that I mean in questions 1 those that are dead here on earth and now is in heaven.

Then what does the state of the body have to do with the discussion ?

I'm sorry. I wasn't clear enough and should have wrote those who are now dead here on earth and is now in heaven.

It refers to the reality of what man is, and thus is related indeed to the issue.
As for your question, perhaps you could (again) clarify it.

Look at further up in this post for clarification.

Those in heaven (if you read Revelation) present the prayers of those on earth to God. How can it be said they don't hear when the Scriptures testify that they do ?

I have read Revelation many times and I would like you to present a specific verse or specific verses.

 

[JesusFreak78]

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Rev. 5:8


And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. Rev 8:4

I assume this post is for me.

Revelation 5:8 doesn't say anything about the 24 elders can hear our prayers. It simply say that they are holding a golden bowl full of incense which is the prayers of the saints. Who gave them those golden bowls with the incense isn't explained and to say it's from they hearing our prayers is to read into the text (eisegesis) which is dangerous.

Revelation 8:4 doesn't say the angel can hear our prayers. Revelations 8:3 tells us the angel was holding a golden censer and much incense was given him. It doesn't explain to us who gave him the incense. So again, to take the verse to mean the angel can hear our prayer is to eisegesis the verses(es).

 

[Thekla]

I assume this post is for me.

Revelation 5:8 doesn't say anything about the 24 elders can hear our prayers. It simply say that they are holding a golden bowl full of incense which is the prayers of the saints. Who gave them those golden bowls with the incense isn't explained and to say it's from they hearing our prayers is to read into the text (eisegesis) which is dangerous.

Revelation 8:4 doesn't say the angel can hear our prayers. Revelations 8:3 tells us the angel was holding a golden censer and much incense was given him. It doesn't explain to us who gave him the incense. So again, to take the verse to mean the angel can hear our prayer is to eisegesis the verses(es).

So don't call it "hearing" per se (as the manner of reception is not something those of us with our experience can fully understand); the fact is, those who are not God present our prayers.

And asking the Saints for their prayers is a request to present these to God.

The most typical expression is " Agia _____, Pray to God for (on behalf of) us".

"..and those that seek the Lord will praise Him;
their hearts will live forever." teaches the Psalmist.

Haven't you ever known, suddenly, in your heart that someone needed prayer, and prayed for them, only to hear later of their need ?

If one part of the body suffers, all the body suffers. If one part of the body is glorified, all the body rejoices. This is what Paul teaches.

Either the body of Christ includes those present with Christ, or not. I believe it includes those here in their bodies, and those absent from their body and present with Christ. And I will not say, contrary to Paul's teaching, that one part of the body is not needed (just because they are absent from their bodies).

 

[JesusFreak78]

So don't call it "hearing" per se (as the manner of reception is not something those of us with our experience can fully understand); the fact is, those who are not God present our prayers.

I still haven't seen any biblical evidence to support what you're saying.

And asking the Saints for their prayers is a request to present these to God.

The most typical expression is " Agia _____, Pray to God for (on behalf of) us".

You keep telling me that, but you don't give me any biblical evidence for it.

"..and those that seek the Lord will praise Him;
their hearts will live forever." teaches the Psalmist.

Yes, seek the Lord, not anyone else in heaven.

Haven't you ever known, suddenly, in your heart that someone needed prayer, and prayed for them, only to hear later of their need ?

When that happens it's from God and not someone else in heaven.

If one part of the body suffers, all the body suffers. If one part of the body is glorified, all the body rejoices. This is what Paul teaches.

This doesn't have anything to do with praying to anyone else than God and how they can hair your prayers.

Either the body of Christ includes those present with Christ, or not. I believe it includes those here in their bodies, and those absent from their body and present with Christ. And I will not say, contrary to Paul's teaching, that one part of the body is not needed (just because they are absent from their bodies).

The body of Christ as talked about in the bible is talking about believers in Christ here on earth.

Let me present some bible verses that speaks against praying to anyone but God.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 7:24-25
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Romans 8:26-27
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

In the one instance we see someone (in this case Saul in the OT) is praying to someone who is dead, He didn't seem very happy about it as we can read in 1 Samuel 28:15.

1 Samuel 28:15
Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.”

 

[ViaCrucis]

I still haven't seen any biblical evidence to support what you're saying.

Maybe you addressed it already, but I didn't see that you did.

καὶ ὅραμα διὰ τῆς νυκτὸς ὤφθη τῷ Παύλῳ ἀνὴρ τις ἦν Μακεδών ἑστὼς παρακαλῶν αὐτὸν καὶ λέγων, Διαβὰς εἰς Μακεδονίαν βοήθησον ἡμῖν
- Acts 16:9

The text says the man in the vision "prayed" to Paul.

I don't personally ask the Saints to pray, it's not part of my standard prayer life.

I do, however, recognize that they do pray for us. Because it is commanded of us who are in Christ to pray for one another.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Standing Up]

All the examples are people on earth.

Again, the apostles had two perfect examples in Stephen and James to teach believers the principle of invoking the dead in Christ to pray for us. But they don't teach us this. The practice supposedly is from Judaism. Do you still observe Torah? If not, why do you practice other Judaistic traditions?

 

[JesusFreak78]

Maybe you addressed it already, but I didn't see that you did.

καὶ ὅραμα διὰ τῆς νυκτὸς ὤφθη τῷ Παύλῳ ἀνὴρ τις ἦν Μακεδών ἑστὼς παρακαλῶν αὐτὸν καὶ λέγων, Διαβὰς εἰς Μακεδονίαν βοήθησον ἡμῖν
- Acts 16:9

The text says the man in the vision "prayed" to Paul.

I don't personally ask the Saints to pray, it's not part of my standard prayer life.

I do, however, recognize that they do pray for us. Because it is commanded of us who are in Christ to pray for one another.

-CryptoLutheran

This man from Macedonia is someone that is alive here on earth and not someone in heaven and the vision is from God and not from man. It's God Who makes it possible to hear what this man is praying.

Also so commentaries suggest this man was an angel. I'm not gonna confirm or deny this, but I'm posting it since I think it's an interesting idea.

This comment is from John Gill's exposition of the whole bible:
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]"there stood a man of Macedonia[SIZE=+1]; an angel in the form of a man; the Syriac version reads, "as a man of Macedonia", and who might appear in a Macedonian habit, or speak in the Macedonian language; or the apostle might conclude him to be so, from his making mention of Macedonia, as the place where he requested him to come, and assist[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]"

Source: John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

This man from Macedonia is someone that is alive here on earth and not someone in heaven and the vision is from God and not from man. It's God Who makes it possible to hear what this man is praying.

Also so commentaries suggest this man was an angel. I'm not gonna confirm or deny this, but I'm posting it since I think it's an interesting idea.

This comment is from John Gill's exposition of the whole bible:
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1]"there stood a man of Macedonia[SIZE=+1]; an angel in the form of a man; the Syriac version reads, "as a man of Macedonia", and who might appear in a Macedonian habit, or speak in the Macedonian language; or the apostle might conclude him to be so, from his making mention of Macedonia, as the place where he requested him to come, and assist[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]"

Source: John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

is our connection to Christ and to one another through Christ limited to earth?

 

[jackmt]

is our connection to Christ and to one another through Christ limited to earth?

Yes.

 

[LOCO]

There is more than one form of prayer just as there is more than one denomination of the Christian Church. Just as there is more than one definition of the word 'pray' in the dictionary.

When Catholics pray to God it is a 'prayer of worship'
When Catholics pray to Saints it is a 'prayer of intercession', asking them to pray for us.

Some Protestants get outraged because for them 'prayer' is their ultimate form of worship. Along with singing.

For Catholics, our ultimate form of worship is the 'Mass'.

Most prayer for Catholics in our daily lives is a form of communication not worship. We believe there is no separation between those in Heaven and those on Earth. Not all the dead are Saints in Heaven, some are merely saints such as you and I and others that have passed on.

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Yes.

so Christ is limited to earth?

 

[narnia59]

Originally Posted by Eternally Optimistic

is our connection to Christ and to one another through Christ limited to earth?
​

Yes.

Romans 14: 8: If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9: For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Ephesians 1: 9: For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ 10: as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Colossians 1: 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell ; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

1 Thessalonians 5:
9: For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10: who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him.


Scripture says otherwise.

 

[jackmt]

Originally Posted by Eternally Optimistic

is our connection to Christ and to one another through Christ limited to earth?
​

Romans 14: 8: If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9: For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Ephesians 1: 9: For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ 10: as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Colossians 1: 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell ; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

1 Thessalonians 5:
9: For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10: who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him.


Scripture says otherwise.

None of what you cited says anything about prayer to the dead saints or prayer for the dead. Or that we ought commune with the dead. In fact, we are forbidden to consult the dead. Christ rose physically from the dead and was assumed bodily into heaven where He alone intercedes for us to the Father. I Tim.2:5

 

[narnia59]

None of what you cited says anything about prayer to the dead saints or prayer for the dead. Or that we ought commune with the dead. In fact, we are forbidden to consult the dead. Christ rose physically from the dead and was assumed bodily into heaven where He alone intercedes for us to the Father. I Tim.2:5

What I cited contradicts your claim that our connection to Christ and one another is limited to earth. Christ has united all those in him into one body, both those in heaven and on earth. Scripture is quite clear about that. And as St. Paul teaches, there is no division in the one body of Christ (1 Cor 12:25). All of its members care equally for one another.

You will get no argument from any Catholic that we are not to 'consult' the dead. Necromancy is strictly forbidden by the church. Seeking to conjure up those who have died to elicit information from them is not only wrong, it's dangerous.

Asking another member of the body of Christ to pray for us is not 'consulting' them. And if you're going to cite 1 Tim 2:5 as Christ being our sole mediator to the Father (which Catholics agree he is), then you need to place it in the context of the first four verses of 1 Timothy 2, where Paul urges us all to become "intercessors" for each other. Our ability to intercede for each other is totally dependent upon the sole mediation of Christ to the Father, but not only can we intercede for each other but we are commanded to do so. And it in no way contradicts Christ being the sole mediator between God and man, or St. Paul would not have told us to do it in the same breath.

Claiming that we can ask those on earth to intercede for us but not those in heaven creates a division in the body of Christ where St. Paul says there is none. And it flatly denies the Scriptural truth that Jesus Christ by his death and resurrection has united heaven and earth into himself.

 

[Thekla]

I still haven't seen any biblical evidence to support what you're saying.

You keep telling me that, but you don't give me any biblical evidence for it.

Yes, seek the Lord, not anyone else in heaven.

Christ has recapitulated all - in the heavens and on earth.
I believe and live this.
It is not the evidence that you look for, but the promise that we live.

The body of Christ is not divided.
The hearts of those that are of Him live forever - to live is not the same as death.

When that happens it's from God and not someone else in heaven.

Indeed; it is the binding of the body in Him.
No physical proximity is needed; how not also of the body, made of those whose "hearts live forever ..." ?

This doesn't have anything to do with praying to anyone else than God and how they can hair your prayers.

Does the body of Christ include those who are present with Him, or not ?

The body of Christ as talked about in the bible is talking about believers in Christ here on earth.

So, if I understand, those who are present with Christ, if they are absent from the body, are no longer part of the body of Christ ?
That it is our physical existence that determines our spiritual existence.

Let me present some bible verses that speaks against praying to anyone but God.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Indeed, there is only one covenent-maker (mesitis), but intercession (praying) is not the same as covenant-making.
In fact, Paul says we are to pray for one another - that would imply many intercessors.

Hebrews 7:24-25
24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Because Christ intercedes for us, we should not pray for one another ?
This may be the teaching in your Church, but it seems then that your Church has missed the teachings of Paul, and of love.

Romans 8:26-27
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

verse 26. How does this apply to only some, but not all in the body of Christ ?
verse 27. If, again, this is the basis of your teaching to not love and pray for one another, how do you reconcile this with the teachings of Paul ?

In the one instance we see someone (in this case Saul in the OT) is praying to someone who is dead, He didn't seem very happy about it as we can read in 1 Samuel 28:15.

1 Samuel 28:15
Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.”

Yes, and Isaiah talks about these "ventriloquists".

But there is no conjuring.

Yet those in heaven hold and present the prayers of the sainst on earth.

How does your Church teach that this happens ?

 

[Thekla]

All the examples are people on earth.

Again, the apostles had two perfect examples in Stephen and James to teach believers the principle of invoking the dead in Christ to pray for us. But they don't teach us this. The practice supposedly is from Judaism. Do you still observe Torah? If not, why do you practice other Judaistic traditions?

We do not persist in the pagan:

understanding of death as bringing lethe (forgetfulness) of the soul/heart but accept the promise recorded in Scripture that in God, the heart/soul lives forever. Thus we attest to the truth (alethia) and the fulfillment of the Truth, Jesus Christ.

understanding of bios as the central life lived, but of the promise of Christ that the true life is the zoe, which is of God and cannot be extinguished.

We do not worship the secular attestation:

that God is "up there"

that truth is an intellectual construction, and all that is truth is recorded

that Christianity is a cluster of ideas, an ideology.



But we believe in the teachings and promise of Christ as present, now, and lived, for we:

"... are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

God is not "up there", but Christ is present with us, now, the heavenly KIngdom is here and now, all this is present and now in Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Is living Christ is "Judaistic traditions" ? No, it is the fulfillment of Judaism.
Not a pagan understanding, nor the secularism that boxes God off somewhere in scrolls, not an ideology that is an intellectual belief,
but the promise and living in God who is above time (chronos), and is with us in time (kairos), and all that are with Christ.