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Why we should believe God created all of Nature, and what that means...

OldAbramBrown

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I'm not ... don't believe?
Mankind were like Adam and Eve before Adam and Eve: that couple specifically are icons to hang a story (with meanings) on.

"God created mankind in His image" means that only a sovereign God would be capable of creating people capable defending each other's integrity in a contingent universe.

That has something central to do with our mode of future salvation.

When His Son who is equal with His Father, took on the injustices that inflict everybody, from those whose integrity wasn't enough to use their discretion kindly, He Ascended and sent Holy Spirit power for living.

I'm not an evangelist but I will say churches for hundreds of years have tended to teach indistinctly about Holy Spirit - and find it convenient to airbrush contingency out of reality altogether (ironic since it supports creation even in the context of various hypotheses).
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... the nature of humans is made by God, but also called sin by Religion? Did God mess up? Is religion trying to scare or control people?

I don't get it
You're right to not get it because sadly as my post 61 mentions, some churches and prominent religious figures to varying extents have fallen back on this. They can't allow Holy Spirit to give us assurance. Fake swagger and throwing around weight is not the "blessed assurance" I used to hear about even as I survived on the fringes in my own sometimes troubled young day. Out of their own codependency which they now cling onto, they blur the distinction. What they exhibit is human nature before allowing God's help. The Bible is addressed to the problems of Christian leaders (don't browbeat, etc) but they don't realise that. Jeremiah records God's view of leaders of "revivalism" under Josiah. Hoping you will be safe somehow (same as I hope for myself single in old age).
 
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StuartB

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I'm really starting to believe that God isn't religious.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... Roman 11:32 states that God has consigned everyone to disobedience and unbelief, so that he may show mercy on all ...
As a figure of speech, that means that their adherence to just the surface, of dill tithing and such, and accusing those ignorant of the Law of wilfulness (when it probably wasn't) may be imputed as insufficient to do God's will which is kindness towards each other.

Dispensation 1a was rolling out the current Revelation first to a certain clan or group of tribes (and meantime the usage of metaphorical actions in ceremonies was a familiar thing), so that a moment could be chosen to roll it out further (dispensation 1b).

The prophets constantly reminded the Hebrews that they no less than the gentiles, were invited to be truly "grafted in". Jesus was doing no more than reminding them of the same thing but explained in greater detail how Holy Spirit would be here after His ascension. The current period is one when this is still open to all and events of AD 70 or 130, or events in the churches meanwhile, didn't change that fact.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... It seems like God doesn't want us to get it.

Many religious leaders indeed tell us that. The trick is to uncouple our hypothesis of god or salvation from theirs. They are not an authority. I wait till I hear different from someone else (and that's just me). There is no one story about god.

Belief of believers comes when they infer for themselves things that may or may not be in line with what they hear in one quarter or another. Even some genuine ones may not realise that's what they are doing. It may be logically tentative and provisional.

We used to have "blessed assurance" when teachings were relatively distinct. God will do something about bad teachers somehow, but what we have to do about them is do not accept their paradigm / template (conceptual basis). Refuse to fight on their chosen ground.

Only a sovereign God could create people capable of defending another's integrity in a contingent world at their own discretion and send Holy Spirit help for this. Functional Holy Spirit deniers (who deny that they are denying Holy Spirit) and contingency deniers give the game away once you learn to see how. Contingency supports creation so they show themselves up. Red flags: bossiness, browbeating, slipperiness, emotional codependency.

The real God always expected us to make up our own minds in our own time (and this used to be taught). That always included leaving the jury out longer, on the mass of confusing "claims" (a worse mass than in my young day).
 
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stevevw

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Explaining evolution doesn't necessarily mean denying God as creator. It could be just explaining how God created everything. Explanations don't create they just explain what is. They don't account for what is.

I like what Professor John Lennox says on this about how math seems to be reflected in the universe and how some say that it may be math or information that brought about the universe itself. Something cannot come from nothing. Math doesn't come tumbling out of nothing but rather it takes a mind. If anything the universe reflecting math shows there is a mind behind it.


Maybe that mind was there from the very start in Gods Word. It makes sense that if the earth is perfect for intelligent and conscious life to exist then the settings for this was there from the very beginning. It wasn't a case that God had to intervene as he already put that in place from the beginning.

If Mind and Consciousness are behind everything then perhaps there is some aspect of reality that is conscious and as a result creation is no unconscious and its ultimate aim is 'Us' conscious beings able to have relations with the mind behind everything. In that sense I believe that is how Gods creation is odered.
 
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Halbhh

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Reading your interesting post, one familiar thought came to mind: "what a wonderful world".

Which brings to mind a fav song:


The magnificent, breath taking quality of reality....

...
Can't get enough of that, right?

More:
 
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stevevw

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Reading your interesting post, one familiar thought came to mind: "what a wonderful world".

Which brings to mind a fav song:


The magnificent, breath taking quality of reality....

...
Can't get enough of that, right?

More:
Great stuff. I like the image from the Webb telescope showing Gods handy work.
 
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Halbhh

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I would think if Christ or God wanted everyone saved he would've made it plain and simple. It seems like God doesn't want us to get it.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

(John 3)


To believe in Christ as our Savior -- saving us from the rightful ultimate consequences of our (real and meaningful) sins we have all done, so that instead of being excluded from heaven, we are cleansed, changed and made ready for Eternal Life with God.
 
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Jipsah

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Not true.

God is fully able to accurately communicate real life events in a vision.
But not about His Body and Blood.

Right.

Or maybe it's just that some have things they simply aren't willing to hear.

"
He can't have meant that! That's just crazy!

Hmmmm...
 
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Aaron112

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I'm really starting to believe that God isn't religious.

I would think if Christ or God wanted everyone saved he would've made it plain and simple. It seems like God doesn't want us to get it.
Unless a man becomes like a little infant/child, he can never see the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
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BobRyan

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"This is My Body..."
And to use symbolism as in John 6 - where no one "bites Christ" not even the faithful disciples since it is obviously a symbol
Just as in Matt 16 - leaven and bread are also used as symbols for "teaching".
But day, night, evening, morning, 1 day are all terms that appeared to the readers to mean just what they said in Gen 1-2 such that even the legal code of Ex 20:11 hardwired that timeline to be the same as the 7 day week at Sinai...
 
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BobRyan

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I would think if Christ or God wanted everyone saved he would've made it plain and simple. It seems like God doesn't want us to get it.
Well this part is pretty easy.

1. Day .. evening and morning... "are one day" according to Genesis 1. As everyone knows
2. Neither Moses nor his readers were Darwinists - as everyone on planet Earth pretty much agrees.
3. That means Moses' readers were not about to "read Darwinism into" his text. And that means Exegesis demands a literal day for each of the 7 days in Gen 1-2.

So that is not the hard part.

4. God says in Gen 1 that he created all life on Earth in that period of time and that He formatted planet Earth with the dividing of oceans and continents, and Sun and moon - all in that 7 day period where He makes "TWO Lights" in the sky on day 4 (not a zillion and two). People can all see that this is what the text says. And no one in Moses' day had any need to "make it" say anything else. So again exegesis demands we admit it.

that part is not very hard either.
 
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