Why we should accept the BoM as True

[boughtwithaprice]

So we are to believe the Book of Mormon to be true based on a feeling the we get, if we pray? There is no objective evidence that could reconcile our feelings with reality?

I am sorry, but from the study of human nature it can be shown that feelings can be manipulated, so much so that perception is distorted. How can we trust them? Got anything else?

What about people that feel the Quran is true, or New Age, or Jehovah's witnesses? They all have feelings, how are yours different?

We also have this warning from the Bible:

Galatians

8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Maroni was supposedly an angel from heaven, and Joseph Smith preached a gospel that apparantly was different than what had been preached for 1800 yrs. Do you have any evidence that the Book of Mormon is the same gospel as preached by the Apostles, or do we have to ask for a feeling about that too?


These are legitimate questions based on the arguments that I have seen so far. I am not trying to trap anyone. I just really want to know.

 

[A New Dawn]

Maroni was supposedly an angel from heaven, and Joseph Smith preached a gospel that apparantly was different than what had been preached for 1800 yrs. Do you have any evidence that the Book of Mormon is the same gospel as preached by the Apostles, or do we have to ask for a feeling about that too?

How was the gospel that Joseph Smith preached apparently different from what had been preached for 1800 years when the church was organized in 1830? What is the apparent difference in the gospel that is not the same as the apostles preached?

I think you, like many others here, are not able to distinguish between the Book of Mormon and the present-day LDS church, which is not the same church as what was restored in 1830.

 

[gort]

Jenda quote:

Exactly. I meant to us collectively, through a prophet. At least the RCC still believes that (in theory), even if they don't practice it.

In the OT, the prophets were a type of Christ. Moses was. Aaron was also a type of Christ (priest). There are many types in the OT. Even the tabernacle was a shadow of the atonement. These prophets were the "mediator" between God and the people.

In the NT, Jesus had done away with both tabernacle and prophets. Animals were never a permanent sacrifice. Jesus became that perfect sacrifice, once and for all.

Because He ascended to heaven, He sent down the Holy Spirit. So in effect, Jesus being the head of the church of believers, is Lord of our hearts, and leads by the Holy Spirit.

A so much better than an earthly prophet, God speaks to all that are His.

<><

 

[gort]

Blackmarch quote:

Observation: this is probably true to some extent; that he did not have a relationship with God at that time (or at most, not a great one), especially as considered by most religious christians today, and one points out that he was seeking to know which church to join. Why? to come closer to God and be obedient to him, to get that standing with him (which he believed had to be done the way God had commanded people to do). Or in other words to get a relationship or improve whatever relationship he then had.

If he had or felt that he had a good or great relationship with God, why would he have sought to know what was right, or which church to go to?

A church does not a relationship with God make. It is through Jesus only.

<><

 

[A New Dawn]

In the OT, the prophets were a type of Christ. Moses was. Aaron was also a type of Christ (priest). There are many types in the OT. Even the tabernacle was a shadow of the atonement. These prophets were the "mediator" between God and the people.

In the NT, Jesus had done away with both tabernacle and prophets. Animals were never a permanent sacrifice. Jesus became that perfect sacrifice, once and for all.

Because He ascended to heaven, He sent down the Holy Spirit. So in effect, Jesus being the head of the church of believers, is Lord of our hearts, and leads by the Holy Spirit.

A so much better than an earthly prophet, God speaks to all that are His.

<><

You overlook one factor when you delineate this, and I am not disagreeing with it at all (at least in spirit.)

The fact is, that people have not changed in 2000+ years. They are the same today as they were then, and even 4000 years ago when God gave Moses the Mosaic Law. And that is that they have short memories. They need someone, collectively, who can lead them who is in touch with God. If you look around you at the world, and the direction that Christianity is heading, it does not look good. That is because everyone can listen to God for themselves. You are part of a major movement that says that they don't need anyone to determine the will of God for them, but look at what that is doing to the world. Everyone is in disagreement. Not everyone can even agree that Jesus is the Son of God anymore. Not everyone can agree that there is a salvation after this life. Christianity has become splintered and divided because there is no one who listens to the will of God for everyone, it is just me, me, me now. When God is telling everyone something different, how can we all be headed in the same direction?

I don't disagree that we can all talk to God. I believe we have been able to all throughout history, but without a leader who God speaks through to give His will to mankind, collectively, we are doomed.

That is why we need a prophet (or leader of some kind.)

 

[Blackmarch]

A church does not a relationship with God make. It is through Jesus only.

<><

No the church doesn't make it for you, however it is the responsibility of the church to teach you how to. Of course Joseph might not have understood that at that time, as various denominations do teach that it is the church that makes the relationship for you or imply very heavily of such. So it could very well be that he thought he had to join the right church to be able to get to the point of having such relationship with God.

 

[stinkyjoe]

It is in harmony only in that it plagiarizes the Bible. Also, you really need to read about the bom BEFORE the almost four thousand changes were made to it. If you are white then you are "white and delightsome" but if you are dark skinned you are "dark and loathesome." Does that sound like it is in harmony? There are many changes that have been made that make the bom stand out much better for what it really is.

You have touched on a subject that is a little sensitive for me. I am white (and dilightsome, I guess), and my wife is dark and not loathsome. We have been the subject of many dirty looks and racial slurs among Orthodox Christians. That is one of the things that made me start doubting some Christian teachings. After all, I don't think real Christians would do that. Maybe they are just a few bad apples, or maybe not. I decided to give other religions a chance to see if they measure up better to my idea of Christianity. My wife and have been treated quite well by the Mormons, so what is written above(dark and loathesome), in my opinion, may not be in harmony with the Bible, (or perhaps it is), but seems to be in harmony with modern Orthodox Christian practices. So please don't try to go the way of racism. That really isn't doctrine anyway. What is doctrinally wrong with the Book of Mormon?

Also, as far as the Book of Mormon goes, I have read a good part of it, and although I can't remember where, I saw something about racism, where someone was teaching, speaking of the dark people, saying something to the effect of "I fear their skin may be whiter than yours at the last day." Maybe some mormon out there can tell me where that is. Also, I read somewhere else that the Gospel was free for everyone: slave and freeman, black or white etc. etc. etc. Seems more in harmony with the New Testament teachings than the Old Testament itself in my opinion...

As far as plagiarism goes, where exactly does that claim come from? What evidence is there? I don't feel what I read was plagiarized...

 

[techjedi]

You overlook one factor when you delineate this, and I am not disagreeing with it at all (at least in spirit.)

The fact is, that people have not changed in 2000+ years. They are the same today as they were then, and even 4000 years ago when God gave Moses the Mosaic Law. And that is that they have short memories. They need someone, collectively, who can lead them who is in touch with God. If you look around you at the world, and the direction that Christianity is heading, it does not look good. That is because everyone can listen to God for themselves. You are part of a major movement that says that they don't need anyone to determine the will of God for them, but look at what that is doing to the world. Everyone is in disagreement. Not everyone can even agree that Jesus is the Son of God anymore. Not everyone can agree that there is a salvation after this life. Christianity has become splintered and divided because there is no one who listens to the will of God for everyone, it is just me, me, me now. When God is telling everyone something different, how can we all be headed in the same direction?

I don't disagree that we can all talk to God. I believe we have been able to all throughout history, but without a leader who God speaks through to give His will to mankind, collectively, we are doomed.

That is why we need a prophet (or leader of some kind.)

I would partially agree here.....

Essentially the way I have seen things, humanity as a whole has a tendency to drift towards a "looking out for #1" attitude. This is illustrated time and again in the OT by Israel's continual cycle of Fall-Suffer-Redeem (so to speak). In that respect people haven't changed, we still tend to drift into looking out for ourselves, but there is a difference. In the OT, God delivered Israel by prophets, but with Jesus things changed. God came in human form to save all of humanity. That is our eternal "prophet" and his teachings are timeless if you remember to study without a personal agenda.

However, that being said, I believe God does continue to speak to us... but we just don't recognize it often. I have been inspired by Christian artists, musicians and authors. While I won't go so far as to say they are "divinely inspired" I think these can help us gain new perspectives on the very simple message Jesus brought.

I might just give the BoM a once over, so I can speak about it from an informed position... just as I would for other world religions. Knowing that I know nothing about the BoM, if I find nothing that contradicts Jesus' message then there is no reason to cast it aside... but I still would not necessarily give it the full weight that I would the Bible itself.

Peace

 

[gort]

Jenda,

People prolly are the same today as back then. But the big difference is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The HS leads, teaches, conveys to us "What He has heard".

We are lead by the Holy Spirit.

You've said a lot in your last post that prolly deserves its own thread. Some of the things have to come to pass, a great falling away. There will be tares, false christs, and so on.

Even when Jesus walked the earth, He said even then, that those were the last days.


<><

 

[A New Dawn]

Jenda,

People prolly are the same today as back then. But the big difference is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The HS leads, teaches, conveys to us "What He has heard".

<><

Daneel, I don't disagree with anything you have said, but I still have to come back to, What has it gotten us?

It has gotten us a bunch of division. So much so that even the essential message of Christ is becoming lost.

The problem I see, though, with prophets (and/or Popes) is that they can become corrupt. We have seen both popes and prophets become corrupt. We place our trust in the arm of flesh to too much of a degree. I believe they are necessary, but we need to place our faith more in God than in the prophet, who is only passing on God's message. IMO.

 

[gort]

Jenda quote:

Daneel, I don't disagree with anything you have said, but I still have to come back to, What has it gotten us?

It has gotten us a bunch of division. So much so that even the essential message of Christ is becoming lost.

These things are of wheat and tares, sheep and goats, and birds of the air making nests, and those who have ears to hear, and those who don't.

The problem I see, though, with prophets (and/or Popes) is that they can become corrupt. We have seen both popes and prophets become corrupt. We place our trust in the arm of flesh to too much of a degree. I believe they are necessary, but we need to place our faith more in God than in the prophet, who is only passing on God's message. IMO.

That is why I believe this scripture so very much, and put my trust in the Lord.

Eph 4:11 And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

The term "prophets" here has a different meaning in contrast to OT "prophets"

2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their pernicious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be evil spoken of.

<><

 

[A New Dawn]

These things are of wheat and tares, sheep and goats, and birds of the air making nests, and those who have ears to hear, and those who don't.

<><

Well, yes, but I believe that God wants all His children to hear the (real)message and be saved.

 

[scraparcs]

Do so.

Let me bookmark this thread. It could take God quite a few years to answer me.

 

[Blackmarch]

Let me bookmark this thread. It could take God quite a few years to answer me.

True, in some instances answers don't come instantly and sometimes even take a long time to get.

 

[Bond Slave]

You have touched on a subject that is a little sensitive for me. I am white (and dilightsome, I guess), and my wife is dark and not loathsome. We have been the subject of many dirty looks and racial slurs among Orthodox Christians. That is one of the things that made me start doubting some Christian teachings. After all, I don't think real Christians would do that. Maybe they are just a few bad apples, or maybe not. I decided to give other religions a chance to see if they measure up better to my idea of Christianity. My wife and have been treated quite well by the Mormons, so what is written above(dark and loathesome), in my opinion, may not be in harmony with the Bible, (or perhaps it is), but seems to be in harmony with modern Orthodox Christian practices. So please don't try to go the way of racism. That really isn't doctrine anyway. What is doctrinally wrong with the Book of Mormon?

It is not doctrine? Yes, it was part of their canon until they took it out, changing what they call the "word of God."

Also, as far as the Book of Mormon goes, I have read a good part of it, and although I can't remember where, I saw something about racism, where someone was teaching, speaking of the dark people, saying something to the effect of "I fear their skin may be whiter than yours at the last day." Maybe some mormon out there can tell me where that is. Also, I read somewhere else that the Gospel was free for everyone: slave and freeman, black or white etc. etc. etc. Seems more in harmony with the New Testament teachings than the Old Testament itself in my opinion...

As far as plagiarism goes, where exactly does that claim come from? What evidence is there? I don't feel what I read was plagiarized...

Yes, it is said that if the dark and loathesome people will convert to the ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH BLAH BLAH BLAH that their horrible skin of darkness will change to a white and wonderful tone. Disgustingly racist. I will not for one moment condone what you have experienced by "Christians" in this area. I have two brothers and one sister who are interracial and I would be appauled at this type of behavior by a "Christian" and have to question if they indeed even were. God said there is neither bond nor free, Jew nor Greek, Male nor Female, meaning He sees all as equal. While their behavior is reprehensible, do not allow that to influence you to listen to the enemy and leave Jesus for a church that has distorted the things of God

Also, if you want plagiarism, check out second nephi.

 

[Bond Slave]

True, in some instances answers don't come instantly and sometimes even take a long time to get.

But people are asked to get dunked after two weeks.

 

[Blackmarch]

But people are asked to get dunked after two weeks.

That's after they find their answer, that's usually the waiting time, which is basically to see if they are commmitted eneugh. Sometimes it's longer, sometimes it's shorter. Hopefully you've gotten an answer to your prayers before you decide to get baptised. Sometimes getting that answer can take some time. (usually it does).

Don't rush yourself, but don't procrastinate either.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

off topic.

thread closed