Why we oppose communism

R

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Communism was the cause of the Cold War, resulting in massive military buildups by the United States and the Soviet Union. It even caused us to go to war in Korea and Vietnam. There is a one word question that goes to all of this- why? Why did an ideology created by a few books and letters cause the world to become so violent?

I have my own thought on this, but I'd like to here yours'. I think we opposed communism because:

1) It does not allow for elections
2) It is hostile towards religion
3) It does not allow free speech, and will even use for to prevent it
4) It does all for many of the rights which we cherish from our constitution.
5) It opposes private ownership

I do not think that we oppose communism because of its idea that people should be equal or that everything should be fair. Many claim that when we strive for equality, we are moving towards communism, but this is not the tenet of communism which we oppose.
 

oldrooster

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Real Corona said:
What's ironic is that Marx thought communism would rise in the Industrial countries such as America, Britain, France etc..

Not in agricultural countries like Russia, China or Vietnam.
Marx also said for it to work it would have to be in those countries, peasant societies could not support it, and that has been proved.....
 
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1) It does not allow for elections
Rubbish, every socialist state in history has held elections. Every socialist state has a Peoples Assembly that sort of works as a congress, Peoples Assembly members are elected by the people. After the people elect PA members the PA members elect the president/commander/etc.

How are you American's any better? Your president didn't even get the popular vote. America's version of "Democracy" is one for the rich, the richest person who can get his image out there gets all the votes because the people don't know anything about candidates opposing him.

A 2 party system, as seen in America, is not much different than a 1 party system, especially when democrats and republicans hold almost identitical views. The other parties are there just for view, but in reality if you don't have billions you're not going to get elected.

In comparison PA members in socialist socities are usually of lower class backround and nominated by people in their communities.

2) It is hostile towards religion
Maybe if religion wasn't used by the bourgeoisie to protect their own property and keep working people slaving for superstition, promising "heaven", we wouldn't have to surpress you.

It seems that when capitalists, and especially fascists like Hitler and Mussolini, are in power, the church/Christian faith grows strong and surpresses communists anyway see the Spanish civil war.

Christian scum is surpressed, but they are allowed to practice their own superstition in the privacy of their own home, even hold "prayer" services in their own homes if they wish.

3) It does not allow free speech, and will even use for to prevent it
Free speech for the rich oppressor? No. Free speech for the masses, definetly.

Just like in America all the media is controlled by a handful of corporations, in socialist states it is controlled by an elected peoples senate.

What's more democratic and "Free", having your media controlled by a bunch of rich people or by people you nominated and elected to represent you?

5) It opposes private ownership
That is because private property is used as an instrument of exploitation.

We do not oppose private ownership of your home, etc, but only private ownership of capital producers like factories, or private ownership of the peoples resources like water.
 
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Agrippa

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Soviet Surpreme Power said:
Rubbish, every socialist state in history has held elections. Every socialist state has a Peoples Assembly that sort of works as a congress, Peoples Assembly members are elected by the people. After the people elect PA members the PA members elect the president/commander/etc.

How are you American's any better? Your president didn't even get the popular vote. America's version of "Democracy" is one for the rich, the richest person who can get his image out there gets all the votes because the people don't know anything about candidates opposing him.

A 2 party system, as seen in America, is not much different than a 1 party system, especially when democrats and republicans hold almost identitical views. The other parties are there just for view, but in reality if you don't have billions you're not going to get elected.

In comparison PA members in socialist socities are usually of lower class backround and nominated by people in their communities.

In the most recent election in North Korea (August 2003 if I'm not mistaken), the only party allowed to run was the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland. Similarly, in Cuba, only members of the Communist Party are allowed to run. Here in the US, we have hundreds if not thousands of third parties. Also, to describe the Democrats and Republicans as having 'almost identical views' is ridiculous.

Maybe if religion wasn't used by the bourgeoisie to protect their own property and keep working people slaving for superstition, promising "heaven", we wouldn't have to surpress you.

It seems that when capitalists, and especially fascists like Hitler and Mussolini, are in power, the church/Christian faith grows strong and surpresses communists anyway see the Spanish civil war.

Religion actually grows fastest when libertarian philosophy reins (separation btwn church and state).

Christian scum is surpressed, but they are allowed to practice their own superstition in the privacy of their own home, even hold "prayer" services in their own homes if they wish.

I consider myself a tolerant person, but that statement makes me sick.

Free speech for the rich oppressor? No. Free speech for the masses, definetly.

Just like in America all the media is controlled by a handful of corporations, in socialist states it is controlled by an elected peoples senate.

What's more democratic and "Free", having your media controlled by a bunch of rich people or by people you nominated and elected to represent you?

So if I walked into Red Square in 1943 and yelled 'down with Stalin in the next free election' I'd be fine? I wouldn't be throw in a gulag or have a friendly visit from the NKVD and one of its pistols?

That is because private property is used as an instrument of exploitation.

We do not oppose private ownership of your home, etc, but only private ownership of capital producers like factories, or private ownership of the peoples resources like water.

Public ownership of the 'people's resources' is horribly inefficient.
 
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In the most recent election in North Korea (August 2003 if I'm not mistaken), the only party allowed to run was the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland. Similarly, in Cuba, only members of the Communist Party are allowed to run. Here in the US, we have hundreds if not thousands of third parties. Also, to describe the Democrats and Republicans as having 'almost identical views' is ridiculous.
How ignorant, actually 3 different parties were allowed to run: Korean Workers Party, DFRF, and Korean social democracy party.

And republicans and democrats don't hold similar views? Hmmmm...they both support capitalism, they both support the imperialist wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, both parties voted for the patriot act, both parties take billions from corporations...how are they different other than petty, small social issues like prayer in school/gay marriage etc?

I'd say Republicans are far right-wing, democrats are moderate right-wing.

Religion actually grows fastest when libertarian philosophy reins (separation btwn church and state).
Really? So the crusades, the witch hunts, the fascist war against the Spanish republic, Nazi Germany, and other places where religion thrived they were led by "libertarian" entities?

I'd like to hear where religious ideas are rampant and what libertarian state you speak of?

if you speak of capitalist societies, than libertarian is not the right word. The reason religion is a widespread disease is because the bourgeoisie in each capitalist country has the resources to publicate the "word of god", for political and economic purposes. "God" and "being saved" have been used for political and economic purposes since the beginning of the fclass system, and it hasn't stopped.

So if I walked into Red Square in 1943 and yelled 'down with Stalin in the next free election' I'd be fine? I wouldn't be throw in a gulag or have a friendly visit from the NKVD and one of its pistols?
You might've gotten a knock on the door or harrassed by soviet citizens. The Soviet Union was being invaded, any public counter-revolutionary statements were seen as pro-Fascist ones.

But you certainly would not have been sent to the "gulags". The gulags were reserved for murderers, rapists, and people who worked for the nazi's after the war. You would've gotten the same treatment as a black man in 1950's Ameirca would've gotten, just without the whole lynching part. Or the same treatment a communist in the 1950's would've gotten, you would've been blacklisted and maybe lose your job.

if you read the pravda (communist party newspaper) from the times of Stalin you would see that letters written critically of Stalin's policies were publicized (this was the state-run newspaper mind you) and quite common,with responses from communist party members.

Public ownership of the 'people's resources' is horribly inefficient.
Really? Then you explain to me how the Soviet Union/Russia went from a country 100 years behind the western powers in 1924, to second in the world in industrial power? How the life expectancy of an average Soviet citizen went from 40 in the czarist times, to 73 when Stalin died in 1953? Why Russia's life expectancy for a male today is 58, far less than it was when Stalin was in power (hence why the majority of Russians look back at the Stalin era with great love and nostalgia about how much better life was).

I do not understand, if capitalism was so much more efficient, then why did it take America/Britain 150 years to do what the USSR did in 30, the former inflicted far more suffering amongst its working class too, far far more.
 
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Agrippa

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Soviet Surpreme Power said:
How ignorant, actually 3 different parties were allowed to run: Korean Workers Party, DFRF, and Korean social democracy party.

The Korean Workers Party and the Korean Social Democracy Party are satellite parties of the DFRF.

And republicans and democrats don't hold similar views? Hmmmm...they both support capitalism,

But the Democrats support more socialist measures (SS, welfare, etc) while the Republicans want to privatize SS and vote to limit welfare measures.

they both support the imperialist wars in Iraq and Afghanistan,

There was a large minority of the Democratic Party that opposed the Iraq War when it was launched, nearly the entire party now opposes the war and only opposes leaving immediately because of the chaos and bloodshed that would result.

both parties voted for the patriot act,

The Republicans support Patriot Act II, the Democrats oppose it.

Really? So the crusades, the witch hunts, the fascist war against the Spanish republic, Nazi Germany, and other places where religion thrived they were led by "libertarian" entities?

I'd like to hear where religious ideas are rampant and what libertarian state you speak of?

Popular support for religion is inversely related to govt. interference. See the American Revolution, where there is a sharp increase in public participation in religion after the state governments disentangled themselves from the churches, as opposed to the growing decrease in attendence in previous years.

You might've gotten a knock on the door or harrassed by soviet citizens. The Soviet Union was being invaded, any public counter-revolutionary statements were seen as pro-Fascist ones.

But you certainly would not have been sent to the "gulags". The gulags were reserved for murderers, rapists, and people who worked for the nazi's after the war. You would've gotten the same treatment as a black man in 1950's Ameirca would've gotten, just without the whole lynching part. Or the same treatment a communist in the 1950's would've gotten, you would've been blacklisted and maybe lose your job.

The gulag's were filled with much more besides criminals. A number of ex-Soviet POW's were sent there for being captured. A number of German POW's served well into the 1950s for no other reason than being German. Many supposed criminals and saboteurs were merely the scapegoats for poor administration. Then people like the Volga Germans and the Chechens were shipped to Siberia for no other reason than their ethnicity.

The conditions were also far worse than those of African Americans and American communists. Those men and women weren't forced to do heavy labor for 1/3 their recommended diety need. Several million inmates died from neglect and abuse. One camp, Solovki, found its name a synonym for torture for its harsh conditions.

Really? Then you explain to me how the Soviet Union/Russia went from a country 100 years behind the western powers in 1924, to second in the world in industrial power? How the life expectancy of an average Soviet citizen went from 40 in the czarist times, to 73 when Stalin died in 1953? Why Russia's life expectancy for a male today is 58, far less than it was when Stalin was in power (hence why the majority of Russians look back at the Stalin era with great love and nostalgia about how much better life was).

I do not understand, if capitalism was so much more efficient, then why did it take America/Britain 150 years to do what the USSR did in 30, the former inflicted far more suffering amongst its working class too, far far more.

If the Soviet Union was really 100 years behind the west, it wouldn't be using trains, aircraft, or have factories. It did and, thus, you exaggerate. Yes, the Soviet Union was behind the west technologically. Many of Stalin's changes came at a price, such as the Ukranian famines. The gulags were an intrical part of this advance, providing cheap raw materials at a heavy human cost.

The change in the life expectancy can be explained by new drugs and new advances in technology (the US life expectancy increased by a similar amount during the same period). Soviet life expectancy figures began to fall during the late 1970s and is today at 68, up from 66 in the mid-1960s and 62 in 1982.
 
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Koba The Dread

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On the Ukrainian famine Agrippa mentioned....

[QUOTE] <H3>The causes of famine in the Ukraine



There was famine in the Ukraine in 1932--1933. But it was provoked mainly by the struggle to the bitter end that the Ukrainian far-right was leading against socialism and the collectivization of agriculture.

During the thirties, the far-right, linked with the Hitlerites, had already fully exploited the propaganda theme of `deliberately provoked famine to exterminate the Ukrainian people'. But after the Second World War, this propaganda was `adjusted' with the main goal of covering up the barbaric crimes committed by German and Ukrainian Nazis, to protect fascism and to mobilise Western forces against Communism.

In fact, since the beginning of the fifties, the reality of the extermination of six million Jews had imposed itself on the world conscience. The world right-wing forces needed a greater number of deaths `caused by communist terror'. So in 1953, the year of triumphant McCarthyism, a spectacular increase in the number of deaths in Ukraine took place, twenty years previous. Since the Jews had been killed in a scientific, deliberate and systematic manner, the `extermination' of the Ukrainian people also had to take the form of a genocide committed in cold blood. And the far-right, which vehemently denies the holocaust of the Jews, invented the Ukrainian genocide!

The 1932-1933 Ukrainian famine had four causes.

First of all, it was provoked by civil war led by the kulaks and the nostalgic reactionary elements of Tsarism against the collectivization of agriculture.

Frederick Schuman traveled as a tourist in Ukraine during the famine period. Once he became professor at Williams College, he published a book in 1957 about the Soviet Union. He spoke about famine.

`Their [kulak] opposition took the initial form of slaughtering their cattle and horses in preference to having them collectivized. The result was a grievous blow to Soviet agriculture, for most of the cattle and horses were owned by the kulaks. Between 1928 and 1933 the number of horses in the USSR declined from almost 30,000,000 to less than 15,000,000; of horned cattle from 70,000,000 (including 31,000,0000 cows) to 38,000,000 (including 20,000,000 cows); of sheep and goats from 147,000,000 to 50,000,000; and of hogs from 20,000,000 to 12,000,000. Soviet rural economy had not recovered from this staggering loss by 1941.

`... Some [kulaks] murdered officials, set the torch to the property of the collectives, and even burned their own crops and seed grain. More refused to sow or reap, perhaps on the assumption that the authorities would make concessions and would in any case feed them. `The aftermath was the ``Ukraine famine'' of 1932--33 .... Lurid accounts, mostly fictional, appeared in the Nazi press in Germany and in the Hearst press in the United States, often illustrated with photographs that turned out to have been taken along the Volga in 1921 .... The ``famine'' was not, in its later stages, a result of food shortage, despite the sharp reduction of seed grain and harvests flowing from special requisitions in the spring of 1932 which were apparently occasioned by fear of war in Japan. Most of the victims were kulaks who had refused to sow their fields or had destroyed their crops.'
[/QUOTE]
</H3>More on the famine here...
http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/node77.html#SECTION00800900000000000000
 
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billwald

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How are you American's any better?

The USofA is the greatest (large) country in the world for the average working person. Any person of average intelligence and health who was born in the USofA since 1940 - including black people - can make a better life for themselves than 90% of the people in the entire world - in any time period.

Yes, some small, unified countries have done OK with socialism. Particularly northern, European. thaditionally Lutheran countries. Switzerland is the exception - a country unified by a universal love of money. Ireland has also done OK.
 
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Agrippa

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Koba The Dread said:

Is that the same site with the '9 Lies of Capitalism' or whatever? The site that claims that WWII was a communist war against fascism, that claims capitalist appeasement was based on a strategy of directing Hitler east, while Soviet appeasement was strangely absent? The site that claimed that 30 of the best French divisions were somehow poised to invade the Soviet Union from Syria? The site that somehow lost 85 German divisions that participated in the Battle of France? The site that completely ignored the impact of Lend Lease? Forgive me if I'm not too enthusiastic about its historical accuracy.
 
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ufonium2

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Yeah, communism is the best economic/social system ever. That's why hundreds of Americans die every year trying to float to Cuba, and why they had to build a wall with armed guards to keep the capitalists from sneaking into East Germany.

Wait. Strike everything I just said and reverse it.
 
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